Dear Eagles:
In addition to looking at this novel from a
feminist perspective, or from the hero's journey perspective, we can look from
the psychological perspective to arrive at a better understanding of the themes
of a novel.
In doing so, we can look at Holden's obsession with
death. First, there is his natural obsession with the death of Allie.
This plays a central role in the novel, and this traumatizing event can be seen
as the root of his problems. Then there's the passages on pages 154-155
in which he talks about how everyone would react to his death, and his own
feelings about dying, in light of Allie's death. He imagines
"jerks" coming to his funeral. He also says "I hope to hell when
I do die somebody has enough sense to just dump me in a river or
something." Making another analogy to the Shakespeare play Hamlet,
the character of Hamlet contemplates suicide in his famous "To be or not
to be " soliloquy, but he chooses not to commit suicide because he is
afraid of what comes after death--"the great unknown." Does
Holden contemplate suicide in this passage, and if so does he choose not to die
because he doesn't like how the jerks or phonies will attend his funeral, or
how his mother might react? Or is he not seriously contemplating
suicide at all? Perhaps Salinger was making an analogy to Mark Twain's
famous character of Tom Sawyer, who got to attend his own funeral when people
thought he had died?
There's also that passage on pages 170-171 where he
discusses the suicide of one of his classmates at Elkton Hills--James Castle.
The kid was not a friend of Holden's, but he recalls the kid because he had
borrowed his turtleneck.
I once read that every novel has a ghost story included...meaning, a novel's main character is usually haunted by a ghost or a death that occurred earlier in his/her life? This ghost story is what consciously/subconsciously drives the main character. Is that true in this novel?
What other psychological aspects can we draw upon to help understand Holden
Caulfield? Or is this enough?
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ReplyDeleteI believe that the suicide is a present theme in the novel. Holden uses the phrases "crazy", "madman" ,"depressed" frequently and also talks about how he wants to kill himself. Although these expressions can be seen as typical coming from a teenager, if you continue to read it is evident that through his language and hints that he is showing that he really is considering committing suicide as a way to escape from the world he hates, does not fit in to, and does not understand. Although Holden discusses about his roommate from Elkton Hills, James Castle, I do not think that he influences Holden on the idea of suicide. Instead I believe that is the death of Allie that creates a psychological aspect in Holden's life. He mentions throughout the book that his mother has suffered nervous breakdowns after the death of his brother, which could possibly be the reason for Holden's nerves as well. In chapter five he mentions that he broke all the windows of the garage after Allie's death and was almost going to be psychoanalyzed. Because Allie was only a child when he died, it made life appear cruel and unfair for Holden which could be an explanation for the reason that Holden wishes to be apart from the world and society in which he lives in. His description of Allie's death reveals his emotional pain, suffering, and fear of life which haunts him and I would consider Allie to be the ghost story because he is subconsciously impacting Holden's life.
ReplyDelete- Brenda
I would like to agree with Brenda's point that the ghost story seems to be Allie's death, but I would also like to disagree on a few other things she mentioned. Even after reanalyzing certain scenes in the book, I did not feel as if Holden was ever seriously contemplating suicide because he did not fit into the world surrounding him. Instead, I think he was not afraid of death. His comment about how he hopes someone would have "enough sense" to just him him into a river signals to me as the reader another aspect of his desire to be completely away from this materialistic and unrealistic society that he must thrive in. In another post, we discussed how our narrator really wants to disappear into a world where he approves of everything that goes on around him. If he truly does prefer such a world over the real one, then why wouldn't he want his ideal world to continue after his death as well? To answer Mr. Rodriguez's question, I believe that he does not approve of the jerks and phonies attending his funeral, and would rather leave the earth in peace, in his own way.
ReplyDeleteCaulfield spoke much about suicide because sometimes, people see it as the only way out. By this, I mean that when people encounter problems or situations that are devastating or hurtful, they tend to sometimes think that suicide is the only way out of the problem. They are so hurt, isolated, and disappointed that they refuse to attempt to change things around themselves. I think that Holden might be in such a place, and is no longer afraid of death. On the other hand, I also think that in his heart, he does not want to perish. He constantly thinks of his beloved sister and his dear mother.
This topic itself is not entirely enough to understand Holden. We must look at his perspective towards different people and events as a whole. He is always approving of his sister and dead brother, always disapproving towards anyone deeply involved in society, such as his brother and roommates at Pencey. He has good intentions with his every thought or move, but is generally disappointed at what the world has come to.
-Negin Mohtashemian
Throughout this novel, I never believed that Holden truly wanted to commit suicide regardless of all the times he mentioned it. As the novel developed, it is apparent that Holden acts out on impulse, as observed when he asks Sally to marry him, but what I thought was interesting is that he always justified on why he shouldn’t commit suicide. Holden, never really had a filter on his actions or what he said throughout many occurrences in the novel but ironically he always refrained from actually committing suicide. For example, in chapter 14, Holden states how he wanted to commit suicide but refrained from doing so because the phonies would have an opportunity to see him dead. When I first read that passage, I believed that Holden was simply trying to show superiority by beating the system but as I am reflecting now that I have finished the novel, I felt that he never committed suicide due to being the catcher in the rye. The catcher in the rye is supposed to preserve all children’s innocence and since Holden lost his childhood innocence when his brother Allie died, he wanted to refrain from them feeling the same loss although he does not like them. However, I believe it was also an excuse to simply conserve his sisters innocence as she was still a child. It is apparent that Allie’s death has greatly impacted Holden and his actions because they had caused him psychological pain for many years. Although it is very hard to comprehend Holden at times due to his mental problems, I strongly believe he was the motive for never committing suicide and instead becoming the catcher.
ReplyDelete-Jazzlyn Aviles
The scene that most stood out to me regarding suicide was after Maurice and the prostitute came into the room to claim the money. After being up Holden starts pretending like he had been shot and then says that the only thing that he felt like doing was committing suicide, eventually deciding against it because he "didn't want the stupid rubbernecks looking at me when I was all gory" (136). I'd like to think that he is not necessarily obsessed with the thought of dying, but instead more so with the thought of getting away. The idea of suicide is eventually replaced with an obsession to run away west, buy his own cabin, and live by himself until he gets married, and then still live and provide for himself. This idea can be connected to his ghost, Allie, because he experienced the death of what was good to him, he views the world through a much darker lens, one that presents to him an abundance of phonies. He does not want to die, simply get away from Hollywood, phonies, and materialistic ideas.
ReplyDeleteOne last psychological aspect is his constant feelings of loneliness and depression. Throughout the whole story, Holden always feels like ringing someone up, whether it be phoebe, his old teachers, or Luce he must always be with someone else he gets depressed. This also goes back to Allie being taken away from him and I think drives him to always long for company even more than the thought of death.
-Rodrigo Blanco
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DeleteAlthough I agree with my peers, I do not believe Holden was obsessed with suicide, at least not to the point of committing it. However, I do believe that Holden was merely exploring the idea of escaping the mad world he lived in. I agree with Rodrigo in that his motives of escaping are ultimately what drives him to become obsessed with the idea of fleeing with Sally. This also relates to Holden’s curiosity of the ducks in the pond as they migrate during the winter. It seems that Holden longs to become like one of those ducks, in order to temporarily escape. Regardless, I don't believe Holden would go to the extent of committing suicide because, similar to Hamlet, I believe he would be reluctant regarding the aftermath of death, similar to his reluctance of entering adulthood.
DeleteAnother psychological aspect I would like to address is the influence of the unconscious on our behavior. According to psychoanalysts, behaviors are mainly formulated by critical past experiences that became part of the unconscious. This theory is similar to the "ghost story" phenomenon mentioned by Mr. Rodriguez, where ghosts, or in this case, previous experiences unconsciously haunt an individual. According to Holden and his "lousy childhood" (Salinger 3), it is reasonable to assume that most of his negativity and drive of considering an "escape" has been infiltrated by his upbringing. However, other psychologists claim that behavior is a modification of environmental factors. In this case, one can say that Holden's thoughts and actions are a result of feeling alienated or belittled by society. Altogether, I believe that there is not one sole psychological explanation for Holden's behavior or obsession with death; but rather, it is a compilation of many aspects.
-Nicole Isabelle
Throughout the novel, Holden can be seen as quite pessimistic. He is highly critical almost everybody, and his tendency to push others away shows something about Holden psychologically.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the book, Holden makes clear his dislike of those whom he classifies as “phonies”, and seems to find the worst in everyone. He judges almost everybody he meets. On the other hand, Holden is also quite critical of himself. An example of this is in chapter 13 when Holden wishes he had gloves, and then goes on a tangent, imagining what he would do if he were to confront the thief. Holden claims that he is "yellow", and wouldn't make his approach aggressive in any way. Not only does this show that Holden has a negative view of many things, but this also shows something about him psychologically. For Holden to say that he is "yellow" is inconsistent with his earlier actions in the book, most notably when he punched his roommate, Stradlater, in the face because of his date with Jane.
Holden puts up walls between himself and others, mainly because he usually sees the worst in almost everyone. There are, however, some exceptions to Holden's pushing away of other's. They are his brother, D.B, and his sister. Now, earlier posts mentioned the death of Allie affecting Holden, and I believe this to be true. The fact that the only two people close to Holden are people who were (presumably) also close to Allie could be showing that Holden is deeply scarred by his brother’s death, and that he pushes almost everyone away that has no connection to his brother. Now, the pushing away of almost everyone takes its toll on Holden. He is constantly seeking somebody to talk to. Throughout the book, Holden mentions multiple times that he wants to call somebody, and eventually actually goes out with a girl he calls up, Sally Hayes. Then, we see a weakness in Holden’s psychological wall he puts up between himself and everybody else. This is the first person he has talked to in a while, and he wants her to run away with him somewhere, when clearly his description of her shows that she does not mean much to him anyway. This shows that Holden subconsciously feels the pain pushing others away for so long has been causing him. However, Holden’s desperation scares her away anyway. Another example is when Holden has a prostitute sent to his room, and he just wants to talk to her. Holden is lonely, and he pushes others away because of the psychological scar left by his brother’s death just three years prior.
Holden also seems to have a strange panic attack nearing the end of the story. He becomes afraid of crossing the street because he feels that he’ll never make it. He essentially begins praying to Allie to help him make it across the road, and thanks him when he makes it. This goes on for many streets, and leaves Holden feeling incredibly nervous. This could possibly being showing readers the effects that Allie’s death have had on Holden. Although Holden tries to play off like the death of his brother, whom he was close with, does not affect him anymore, clearly it has left some psychological damage.
Something that cannot be ignored when speaking of Holden psychologically is his thought of committing suicide. Holden has a horrible first night, and then he starts thinking to himself about Allie, and later thinks about killing himself. The only reason he didn’t go through with it is because he didn’t want a “bunch of rubbernecks” looking at his corpse. Holden’s reason for not killing himself is another look into his mind, a possible explanation being he didn’t want to seem like a “phony”, for killing himself in a manner that would be visible to everyone.
Xavier Sanchez
Holden's obsession with death plays a great part in his attitude and view of the world. The death of his brother, Allie, has left him mentally and emotionally scarred. He is traumatized because Allie was someone he genuinely cared about, and one day he was gone just like that. It can be inferred that his younger brother's death is the root of Holden's problems. On pages 155 & 156, he imagines a bunch of jerks coming to his own funeral. And then there is the time when he makes an analogy to Shakespeare's Hamlet. When he does this, I see him contemplating suicide. He has so many negative things going on that he just want it to end. Although he contemplates it, he would never really go through with it. He envisions a bunch of phonies and jerks that never really cared about him while he was alive showing up to his funeral. I feel that he does not want to commit suicide, but escape the world in which he lives. This is why he spontaneously wanted to run away with Sally. The death of James Castle, a boy he was not too close to, shows just how messed up and depressed Holden is. Although he was not close to James, he still feels traumatized by the incident which is why he couldn't get it off him mind while talking with Phoebe. I believe the death that revolves around Holden is why he sees the world as phony and is afraid to become intimate with other people. Holden is psychologically traumatized by the death in his life.
ReplyDelete-Justin Bleisch
I personally believe that the death of Allie has seriously done pathological damage to Holden's mind. There are countless scenes where Holden imagines himself seriously hurt or on the brink of death. Unlike most of my peers, i do think Holden is suicidal however, it's not because he doesn't have a good life or his parents and all his friends hate him, (the root of most teenage suicides), it's because he is looking for a place to escape his OWN mind. Holden's mind is constantly on over drive, criticizing everyone, thinking about crazy scenarios, battling with the thought of calling Jane, thinking about Allie. All of it is a lot for him to handle and I believe that he thinks death is the only way to get out of his own mind. The reason he doesn't commit suicide in the novel, is because he's worried about how people would look at him. In fact, after getting beat up by Maurice, Holden seriously does contemplate suicide, but doesn't actually commit to it because and I quote "didn't want stupid rubbernecks looking at me when I was all gory" (136). Holden is all in for the idea of suicide, it's the people around him and how they will look at him who continue to stop him.
ReplyDeleteAlso the fact, that James Castle, a classmate who committed suicide at Elkton Hills, was basically neglected until a brave teacher comes to pick him up, I feel makes Holden believe that no one will care or only the "jerks" will just stand there and watch once he has died. Although, it doesn't play a huge part to the story , I do feel like it is peculiar that Holden felt the need to lend James' his turtleneck even though they weren't really friends, it kinda shows how Holden was a kind soul in a messed up world that drive him to madness.
Finally, I do believe that there is a ghost that subconsciously drives Holden, and that ghost is Allie. Allie and Holden were very close and once Allie died, it seems that was the starting point to Holden's downfall. Allie was the only person in the story who didn't seem to "depress the hell" out of Holden which means to me that Allie was like Holden's guardian angel. It's what kept him alive through the book. At the end of the book, when Holden is walking up and down the streets of New York, he feels that he is going to fall into the unknown and not be able to get to the other side. So to get him across the street he would, "Allie,don't let me disappear. Please, Allie." He continued this every time he crossed a street. To me this is Holden relying of Allie to keep him safe, to keep him alive, to keep him from disappearing. Holden is a lost cause who needs finding.
-Breana Barnes
Although the death of Allie and suicide of James Castle may have influenced Holden, I don’t believe that their deaths are the cause of his depression. When telling the audience about Allie, Holden mentions that he was depressed before his death. This made me recall him saying that he had had a “lousy childhood”, but what made it lousy? Fast-forwarding into the novel, Holden goes off to stay at the house of his old English teacher, Mr. Antolini. That night, he awoke to having his patted in the dark by Mr. Antolini and completely freaked out. After leaving the house, Holden mentions that “flitty” things like that have been going on since he was a kid… It makes you somewhat think that he was possibly molested as a child. Being molested, it could cause depression in the victim, which could possibly be the reason why he’s been depressed throughout the book. In a way, his thoughts are very similar to those of Charlie’s from The Perks of being a Wallflower, whom was also a victim to sexual abuse… It also explains why, whenever a girl would say to “stop” although not really meaning it, Holden would, not wanting to force her into doing anything. Possibly because he knows the feeling. This is just my interpretation, although I strongly do feel that molestation in his childhood is the root of his depression, rather than the deaths of Allie and James.
ReplyDeleteI’m not saying that the deaths of Allie or James had no impact on his life, though. As Holden’s days get worse and worse, the more he says he’s depressed, and mentions Allie more and more, nostalgically. He brings up James Castle because he’s possibly thinking of suicide, himself. The wanting to with Allie and the feeling of dying are heavily shown towards the end of the book, before and during his panic attack.
Like some of my peers, I agree that Holden seems very depressed in the novel. As Brenda pointed out, Holden frequently describes events as depressing. He also imagines scenarios in which he is shot in the stomach, as well as considers his own death and funeral. I also found it slightly strange that Holden thought of James Castle's suicide and Allie and his death in Chapter 22 when asked by Phoebe about what he likes. This obsession with death is commonly linked with depression and thoughts of suicide. But perhaps Holden considers his own mortality at such a young age because he has been exposed to death.
ReplyDeleteConsidering the time in which the novel is set, it is not unlikely that Holden is aware of the deadliness of World War Two. This, along with the deaths of Allie and James Castle, is enough to make a young man question his role in the world and what happens after death. I think these events contribute to Holden's pessimistic and morbid behavior.
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ReplyDeleteHolden does seem to have an obsession with death which is evident in various occasions throughout the book, including in the passages on pages 154-155. Even though Holden did say at an earlier part of the book that he wanted to commit suicide, I don’t think that is thinking about suicide in this passage. In this passage, Holden is outside in the cold with his hair all wet, which makes him think he was going to get pneumonia. I do not think he did this on purpose in order to get sick because he says that he was worried that he might get pneumonia. Holden believes that he is going to die of this sickness and imagines how his funeral will be like and how people will react to his death. The way Holden describes this makes it seem as if he does not want to die, not because he is afraid of what come after, in contrast to Hamlet, but instead because he hates what the living will do when he is dead. He hates the idea of jerks coming to his funeral, being in a cemetery, and people coming to visit him. All of this hatred comes from Allie’s death because Holden hates the jerks who went to Allie’s funeral and he hates the fact that Allie is in a cemetery. Allie’s death is Holden’s ghost story that drives him to think the way he does.
ReplyDelete-Cynthia Rosas
I believe the reason behind his allusion to death and its occurrence in his lifetime is very normal for a teenager. As we mature, there are many things that we begin to question such as the meaning of life and death. Although some people find it awkward to talk about, it still is a matter of curiosity.
ReplyDeleteHolden's obsession with the idea of death may be a due to the multiple exposure to death early in his life. Their impacts, especially his brother Allie's death, can be shown from his response to the deaths. Following the death, Holden says, "I slept in the garage the night he died, and I broke all the goddam windows with my fist, just for the hell of it. I even tried to break all the windows on the station wagon we had that summer, but my hand was already broken and everything by that time, and I couldn't do it" (Ch. 5). It does not directly depict Holden acknowledging his emotions at the time, but I was able to understand the extent to which Allie's death impacted Holden.
Holden also notes, "My hand still hurts me once in a while when it rains and all, and I can't make a real fist any more" (Ch. 5) but the wound that he received from the incident is definitely not a mere physical one. Just like his hand hurts once in a while, he will be reminded of his dead brother as well, and it will cause him to grieve over his death for a long period of time.
More than his fellow student's death, I believe Allie's death is the most significant reason that caused Holden to be the way he is. His cynical way of viewing the world and the bitter nature is most likely driven from a very horrifying experience for him, which in this case would be the death of his brother. It can be inferred through his behavior and attitude throughout the story that Holden is still not over Allie's death.
While I agree with my peers that Holden is certainly in a bad place in his life right now, I do not think that he ever seriously considers committing suicide. I agree with Jazzlyn that Holden simply acts on impulse and fails to think his actions through for the most part. I think Holden considers suicide in a very detached, childish manner. He know that death is always an option for him- he has experienced enough deaths to know that people, even teenagers, are not invincible. It seems as though Holden likes to remind himself- and the reader- of this option, though without actually considering it necessary. Additionally, Holden does not see suicide as a viable option for leaving the phony adult world because he knows that it would continue without him. Although Holden tends to act childishly, he is also mature enough to know that the world will not stop when he does. On pages 154-155, Holden is concerned about the aftermath of his death, about his lousy family coming to the funeral and placing flowers on his grave. Obviously, these actions would no longer affect Holden himself, seeing as he would be dead. This reestablishes that Holden is not only concerned with the phony adult world as it pertains to himself, but is disgusted with its mere existence. Suicide does not seem to be a good option for Holden because he recognizes that his death would mean nothing for the rest of the people trying to escape the phony adult world. Holden wants to be the "catcher in the rye", protecting the young and innocent. His own death, he knows, would do nothing to further this cause.
ReplyDeleteThe death of Holden's brother Allie is clearly a driving force in Holden's life. Because Allie died young, Holden is able to idealize his brother as someone who never grew up, was never forced to enter the adult world that Holden hates so much. All of Holden's memories of Allie are fond childhood memories, because that was the life that Allie was able to live- or at least the parts that Holden wants to remember. Holden mentions, in chapter 5, that Allie died of leukemia. This means, probably,that he was sick for a long time before he died. Holden chooses to remember only the good times Allie had as a kid, thinking of him as the ideal child, never forced to grow up.
I do not believe he wanted to commit suicide, and he was also scared of dying. He talked much about how he was close to dying like when he was on the bench at the park all wet and he said he would die there, but I think it was all caused due to how depressed he felt. But he never wanted to actually die. This was shown when he is walking on the streets and he begins to feel weak and he said he started to ask his brother Allie to help him get through the corner of every street because he thought he would not make it. After actually feeling close to death he changed his mind set amd that is when he started talking about starting a new life.
ReplyDeleteI never really characterized Holden as the suicidal type, considering his abundance of confidence(and pretentious behavior); however I believe that the protagonist might have given a thought or two to committing suicide due to his lack of real relationships with his peers. Holden never really expresses any interest in friendship with other boys at Pencey, and rarely sees his family, allowing for emptiness to develop within the character. As Holden continues on through the story in such a lonely phase, I've noticed that his attitude towards welcoming death changes when he visits his sister, Phoebe. I believe that Phoebe not only takes Holden's mind off of death, but also gives him something to live for, look forward to everyday, and become an example for. In this sense, Holden is stepping up to be the older brother that his family had in Allie before he died. Just as death plays a major aspect in the novel, so does the importance of family - and is Holden's main line of defense in battling his suicidal contemplation.
ReplyDelete-Savannah Mojica
I was quite surprised when Holden mentioned suicide, like my peers I never saw him as a person who took death lightly, to me Holden feared disappearing without being noticed more than anything. In chapter 1 and 25 he mentions this fear of his, "After I got across the road, I felt like I was sort of disappearing. It was that kind of a crazy afternoon, terrifically cold, and no sun out or anything, and you felt like you were disappearing every time you crossed a road." (chapter 1, page 8) What caught my attention the most though was in chapter 25 when Holden was overcome by the same feeling again while walking along Fifth Avenue, but this time he prayed to Allie each time he crossed the street to not let him disappear. I believe that Allie's death traumatized Holden and darkened his view on the joys of living.
ReplyDelete-Vianney Sandoval
As i identified some scenes of the novel my peers and Mr. Rodriguez have brought up, I believe Holden never had the sense of committing suicide. But on the other hand, he is obsessed with the idea of suicide just as he constantly speaks of death. He may never bluntly utter his desire for suicide, but as we read through certain portions of the book, we have discovered that he would like to live in a world where everything around him is accepted by him and how he would want to be dumped in a river after he dies. I all seems so dark and twisted for the mind of a teenager.
ReplyDeleteHolden's stance towards the world motivated me to research psychological disorders, and that research led me to the disorder called Borderline Personality Disorder. This disorder causes unstable self-image, moods, relationships, and impulsive behaviors. It does occur in early adulthood, but people with this disorder cannot tolerate with being alone. Because of that, their relationships tend to be unstable and intense among other people. It also can cause impulsive behavior such as excessive spending, abusing alcohol and drugs -- some things that Holden did in this case -- binge eating, and more. People with the disorder also go through mood swings, feelings of emptiness, and intense anger. This is very peculiar because we view Holden having so much anger towards the world full of phonies and jerks, but yet seems to feel empty because he is constantly asking people to spend some time with him. Could this be the mental disorder that placed him in a mental hospital and caused him to write his thoughts in order to cope with his emotions?
*Source: Society of Clinical Psychology
http://www.div12.org/psychological-treatments/disorders/borderline-personality-disorder/
-Brandon Sanchez
All the factors in the disorder all point to Holden's personality. If I am wrong then I am wrong, but just reflect on Holden and his actions and compare them to this illness: all the times he wants to drink alcohol, his attempts to hook up with women, calling up people he has not seen in ages to just spend time with them, having so much hate for the world and his family members besides his sister, spending all his money on luxuries. It all points to this illness.
Delete-Brandon Sanchez
I agree with those who say Holden is not seriously considering killing himself. This may sound strange, but I think entertaining the idea of suicide comforts him a little. It's my opinion that Holden is struggling with mental illness, and that it is unfortunately controlling much of what he does and feels in the novel. That being said, it can be maddening to realize that you have no actual control over your life because of a mental illness. Holden is also experiencing intense feelings of alienation throughout the novel. The reason I believe he finds comfort in his suicidal ideations is because even if he has no one to connect with, he at least has the option of leaving them all behind on his own terms, which I think allows him to regain a sense of control over his life.
ReplyDeleteJames Castle's suicide was personal for Holden, even if they did not talk often. James was even wearing Holden's turtleneck, and Holden recalls the situation that drove James to kill himself as "repulsive" (page 221). I also think Allie's death as a child enables Holden's fantasy about avoiding adulthood. As mentioned in other posts, Holden's broken hand symbolizes the lasting psychological toll Allie's death causes him. In addition to this, Allie is often mentioned thoughout the novel, conveying that Holden has not properly overcome this traumatic event. Overall, I think Allie's death is a driving force for Holden in terms of how Holden feels about innocence, as well as from a psychological standpoint.
- Amy Lopez
At the beginning of the novel, it is believed that Holden is at a psychiatric facility since he has done "madman" things. With that in mind, I agree with Brenda that Holden wanted to commit suicide because he does not fit into a world full of phonies. However, after really thinking about what committing suicide meant, he thought about his beloved little sister, Phoebe, and his mother. Throughout the book, you can really tell that Holden genuinely loves his sister because she’s the only one he praises in the novel and doesn’t call a phony, other than Allie. Also, whenever he’s lonely or sad, he finds himself thinking about Allie or Phoebe, which are basically the only two people that can make him feel happy and not alone.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Allie’s death is the source of Holden’s depression because right after Allie died, Holden broke all the windows in the garage with his fist, which ended up being broken (44). I agree with Amy that Holden’s broken hand symbolizes the lasting effect of Allie’s death on him, which can’t really escape his mind since Allie was his brother and he died so young. Allie is the ghost that is consciously driving the main character throughout the novel for example, Holden felt like disappearing so he started talking to Allie and said, “Allie, don’t let me disappear. Please, Allie” (48) which indicates that he feels at ease whenever he talks to Allie. This event corresponds to like a lost kid in a busy place, which in this case, Holden feels lost in the busy streets of NYC which scares him that he could disappear. This again, symbolizes how he has difficulties realizing that he needs to grow up.
-Paola Priela
I believe that Holden did want to commit suicide at some points during this novel. He said so very bluntly on page 104 after his altercation with Maurice and the prostitute. It has been made clear throughout the novel that Holden suffers from depression, and we are aware that he is recounting his experiences from a mental hospital, meaning that he is mentally unstable, a danger to himslef or others. We also know that he watched his little brother die of leukemia, and witnessed a peer commit suicide by jumping out of a window. Both of these deaths made great impacts on Holden, exposing him to the dark and unpleasant side of life. I do think he wanted to kill himself, however I do not think that he would actually act on those desires. Holden's closest and most sincere relationship is with Phoebe, and I think that his love for her is one of his main reasons to live. As seen often throughout the novel, Holden becomes extremely depressed, and also has a seeming fascination with death. He does not seem to be frightened by death, rather he often expresses fear towards the changes occurring in his life. Holden is comfortable with death and suicide, but his love for Phoebe is what truly brings him happiness, and what encourages him to keep living.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Hannah when she discusses the possibility that Holden may have been molested as a child. I also began to wonder whether or not Holden had been molested after he fled from Mr. Antolini's , utterly uncomfortable and terrified after waking up to his former teacher petting his head. In this passage Holden claims that “perverty” things had happened multiple times throughout his childhood, causing me to infer that he was sexually abused when he was younger. If Holden was sexually abused as a child, that provides another perspective for which readers to analyze Holden's behavior. His depression, feelings of loneliness and isolation, as well as apathetic attitude toward life would all be psychologically consistent with a victim of child molestation. Also it would add to his slight obsession with innocence which resurfaces throughout the novel, because molestation would mean his innocence was forcibly taken by a human being, as opposed to the inevitability of passing time which I had previously assumed.
-Lilliana Conradi
Holden may be suicidal, but I believe that he has another condition called Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). While many people generalize OCD sufferers as being anally retentive, there are actually different types of OCD diagnoses: primarily obsessive compulsive disorder and obsessive compulsive personality disorder. Primarily obsessive compulsive disorder characterizes an individual as one who is plagued by dark and intruding thoughts and are unable to get over them. These sufferers are lead to believe that their obsession would come true, even though the person tends to be completely safe from the obsessions to even come true. There are different disturbing themes that pop up into a sufferer's mind such as commiting homicide, rape or even obsessing about ones religion or preference. A normal person may think that he is a psychopath when he is holding a knife and the thought of hurting a loved one unintentionally comes to mind. A parent may think that she is a pedophile, because she accidentally touched her son when changing his diapers. A completely healthy teenager may think that they are going to die just because they watched a movie about a girl her age dying. I have noticed that Holden is similar to this girl who thinks she would die just because she watched a movie about it. On page 215, Holden believes that he is going to die of cancer, because he read a magazine about cancer and only one of the symptoms matched his. He also felt he was going to die of pneumonia, because he was cold. These farfetched assumptions may be the result of his OCD. His OCD theme is death, so he often thinks about the dead such as dead people like his brother and the roommate who committed suicide. He may be in the mental institute, because he has OCD and will not stop thinking about death.
ReplyDelete-Risvi Tareq
ReplyDeleteIn agreement with Riley Cruz, it did not occur to me that Holden was suicidal. Like teenagers often do, Holden acts irrationally and unpredictably at times, but to me, that was not an indication that he wants to end his life. Instead of actually ending his life, Holden might just be looking for a drastic change. He may not be suicidal, but he certainly does not know what the future holds for him, nor does he make an effort to establish goals. During a date with Sally, Holden suddenly starts to think about his future and, in a way, has a panic attack. He exclaims, “‘Did you ever get fed up?’ I said. ‘I mean did you ever get scared that everything was going to go lousy unless you did something? I mean do you like school, and all that stuff?”’ Holden is scared; it has dawned on him that he does not have a substantial plan, and his only solution is to run away from his problems with a girl he barely likes, let alone wants to build a life with. As a teenager myself, I’ve often had similar (irrational) thoughts, those of which made sense in the moment but were not backed by logic. Holden is simply trying to find an alternative to being a failure to his parents, flunking out of yet another boarding school, and repeating the same cycle. His irrationality, in this sense, is reasonable and not at all uncommon.
As aforementioned by Lillie Conradi and Hannah Quisay, Holden was likely to have experienced some abuse as a child, as he hints at this during his strange encounter with Mr. Antolini. The idea of someone coming on to him inappropriately is not one that he is unfamiliar with; this is apparent when he says, “I know more damn perverts, at schools and all, than anybody you ever met, and they’re always being perverty when I’m around.” (pg. 212, par. 2) These dreadful experiences may have caused Holden to not trust people; even the people he looks up to do not always turn out to be instrically good people.
Ultimately, of all of the deaths mentioned in The Catcher in the Rye, his younger brother Allie’s death is [naturally] what haunts Holden the most. Time and time again, readers see Holden’s mind shift subconsciously to his late brother. He believes him to be the perfect younger brother, and recounts their shared experiences throughout the story. After his traumatic experience with his perverted teacher, Holden prays to his brother to keep him alive and well. He states, “‘Allie, don’t let me disappear. Please, Allie.’ And when I’d reach the other side of the street without disappearing, I’d thank him.”’ (pg. 218, par. 1) This can also be connected back to the subject of Holden’s “suicidal” thoughts. Although he alludes that he does not see a stable future for himself in New York, ultimately, he does not want to die.This is expressed prior to his prayers to his brother, as he walks down the streets of New York. “Every time I came to the end of a block and stepped off the goddam curb, I had this feeling that I’d never get to see the other side of the street...Boy, did it scare me. You can’t imagine.” (pg. 217, par 1). Holden does not want to die, he just wants a life for himself where he is happy and successful.
- Zuri Smith
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHolden goes to Central Park in New York City, and sits by the frozen pond, where there would be ducks if it were warm outside. He is despondent, having left the hotel because of his confrontation with Maurice. He sits there drowning in his thoughts about death. Throughout the whole novel, Holden is haunted and even fascinated with death considering Allie’s passing away and the suicide of James Castle at Elkton Hill. In a way, it’s as if death follows Holden and holds a premise in his life. On pages 154-155, I sense Salinger was foreshadowing Holden attempting suicide, considering at the end he was under psychiatric health indicating he must have put his life in his own hands. Even before the passage, I viewed Holden as suicidal as Salinger creates Holden to be extremely self-destructive; he goes along his journey throughout the city in a depressing manner and isolates himself from the “phoniness” in life. Although deeply satisfied with dying, I feel as if Holden holds himself back from the mere thought of suicide due to his love for his sister, Phoebe. In the passage, he recalls how his mother is still mourning over Allie’s death and how he could not put Phoebe through the same pain.
ReplyDelete-Celeste Lettieri
I do not believe Holden is fascinated with death. If he were, there would be no story and he would have instantly committed suicide. You cannot go 10 pages without reading the expression "It made me depressed as hell." I believe he sees death as an option to escape from the harsh reality he faces called life, yet he does not want to die completely; you can tell because he makes numerous efforts for human interaction. However you really can tell something is psychologically wrong with Holden; he creates many personas and lies about his age and name to attempt to "fit in" to the environment of the setting, leading me to believe he is a pathological liar. Many are saying Holden is obsessed with the idea of death because of his brother's passing and his fellow classmate, yet I believe it's more of a fear to die because he remembers vividly his mom's reaction to Allie's death, and he would not want t put his beloved sister Pheobe through that, which reinforces the possible notion that Holden still has hope to recuperate from his constant depressions, he has feelings and actively attempts to engage with others even though they are who he would see as "morons" or "phonies" in order to better his loneliness dilemma
ReplyDeleteIt is no secret that Holden is very much depressed. With the death of his younger brother Allie, you can see Holden was heavily effected by it. Holden described Allie as someone everybody loved and liked. With experiencing death of a sibling at a young age, I feel like Holden feels a part of his innocence was taken away from him as well as Allie innocence because he never got the chance to grow up. I think a part of Holden died spiritually as well causing him to not care about a lot of things such as school, responsibilities, and societal ways. In the passage on pages 154-155 I do not believe Holden is contemplating suicide at this particular moment, however was actually worried of dieing due to how people would respond to his death especially for his little sister Phoebe. It seems that Phoebe keeps him grounded and makes him want to live. His depressed behavior often goes away whenever he talks about Phoebe.
ReplyDelete-Jasmine Simmons
While I do not believe that Holden is suicidal, I agree with my peers that he is severely affected by the things he witnesses and seems to be constantly depressed. In the beginning of the novel, I just thought that Holden complained a lot and was never satisfied with anything in his life. Later in the novel however, it became clear to me that their might be something wrong with him mentally, and he is unable to just accept things for what they are and move on with his life instead of dragging on about how upset or depressed something made him. An example of this is in page 107, where Holden describes that after hanging the prostitutes dress up, he imagined how when she bought the dress, the clerk probably just assumed she was a normal girl. He says that this made him "sad as hell" and he didn't know exactly why. What I took from this particular part of the story is that Holden is deeply affected by other peoples troubles and problems. Most people can empathize with others, but they are not so greatly affected by their troubles to a point where they start to believe they are also experiences these problems. I still am not completely sure whether Holden is just extremely empathetic or he is severely depressed and needs help after going through the traumatizing event of his brother Allie's death.
ReplyDelete-Daniela Nolasco
As Zuri Smith stated, the death of Holden's younger brother, Allie, is frequently brought up throughout the book. He shows clear signs of this even impacting his mental health in a very negative way. We witness Holden on numerous occasions talking to the thin-air, as if Allie were there listening to every word. PTSD roots from an individual experiencing/witnessing traumatic experiences, and may be impacting Holden's life. The death of his brother affected Holden to the point where he can no longer live his life the way he used to. There is always the thought of losing his younger brother in the back of mind, which then may result in the suicidal thoughts. Holden may cherish the idea of death due to the idea of being able to escape such dark thoughts that haunt him. Author J.D. Salinger served in the army during World War Two, and suffered with PTSD. I believe Holden may reflect Salinger and all the dark thoughts which haunted him after the traumatic experiences he witnessed during the war. Salinger was surrounded by death, and it is apparent that Holden is, as well. Suicidal thoughts may be frequent within those who suffer from such an illness due to the belief that it is the only escape from such haunting experiences. Holden, like Salinger, had been affected by death of peers, and loved ones. Suicide appeals to Holden because of the haunting thoughts of his lost brother which follow him during his every day life. Overall, I believe Holden is infatuated with the idea of death due to the pretense that it is the only escape from the pain rooted by the death of Allie.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the duration of the book, Holden addressed to his audience the numerous experiences he has faced; for example, his younger brother dying of leukemia, his classmate committing suicide, and his best childhood friend constantly being abused. As Mr. Rodriguez mentioned, these tragic incidents are likely to have caused Holden’s unstable mentality. It became more obvious to me that Holden exhibits common symptoms of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Although generally correspondent with those who underwent the horrors of war, it should be understood that any traumatic event— either experiencing it or witnessing it—triggers this mental health condition. Traumatic events are usually defined as death, serious injury, or sexual violence, which each played a role in Holden’s past and eventually haunted him throughout the book.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that Holden is “obsessed with death”, as Mr. Rodriguez implied. Holden is clearly in a constant battle with his past, which unfortunately involved the deaths of a brother and a classmate. Holden’s struggling attempt to forget about these tragedies has lead him to speak about them more often than not, which may come off as an obsession rather than a fear. However, I think the case is just the opposite. Brenda Gonzalez insisted that he is not fascinated with death, stating that “If he were, there would be no story and he would have instantly committed suicide.” I concur that Holden would not have been reluctant to commit suicide if he truly wanted to; he continually mulled over the concept of death, but surely he knows he does not want to put himself through it. His strong love for his little sister Phoebe appears far too intense for him to get lured toward selfishness and commit suicide.
Also, Holden is far too cowardly to do so. He cried a number of occasions: during Maurice and Sunny’s demand for more money, before he leaves his apartment, and while he watches Phoebe riding the carousel. As sensitive and emotional as he is, one may see his instability as a signal for an eventual attempt at suicide. I think that although he is overly dramatic at times, Holden is too fearful to impose death upon himself and, as Zuri Smith claimed, “…might just be looking for a drastic change.” More than anything, I feel that Holden is longing for an escape from his past but cannot do so, for he alienates himself from those who can potentially help him. For example, Mr. Antolini appeared to give crucial and supportive advice to Holden, words of wisdom that Holden unfortunately dismissed. I saw this as a common, “teenager move”, especially towards parents. As a teenager, I sometimes make mistakes that my mother tries to correct me on, but I sometimes find myself uncooperative and inattentive during her lectures. Holden’s actions are not uncommon, and all teenagers can wholeheartedly relate to his emotion-influenced actions.
Brandon Sanchez “diagnosed” Holden with Borderline Personality Disorder, an extreme fear of abandonment and frequent occasions of self-harm. I do not necessarily agree that this is what Holden suffers from. He chose to alienate himself from others, which is not something one would do if they feared abandonment. Also, as I stated before, self-harm did not occur with Holden. J.D. Salinger, a war veteran, suffered from PTSD, which is only appropriate that Holden acquires this disorder as well.
-Julia Vazquez Alo
I believe that Holden is not suicidal, but morbid. He mentions often in the book that he wishes he were dead and is obviously depressed in his life. However, I also believe that he knows his worth, regardless of his past academic failures. He does not kill himself because he knows there is much more than these “lousy” factors that he encounters. Whenever something annoyed him about a person he would say, “that killed me.” However, towards the end of the book when Phoebe decided to save the broken record he got for her, he states that line again. I interpret this in a way of joy, not annoyance. He lives for his sister and wants her to be free from the negative, phony aspects of the world. He dreams to prevent this for all children, hence him wanting to be the catcher in the rye. Holden could have run away when he had the chance, yet stayed for Phoebe. Without her being such a significant role in his life, then I do believe that Holden would not be receiving help in the mental hospital.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that Holden would truly commit suicide. Although he is definitely depressed and unstable, the thought of actually dying and leaving the world scares him. Having lost his brother Allie at such a young age left him with inner turmoil and despair that he would not want to burden on his beloved sister Phoebe. I agree with some of my peers that the idea of Holden being able to contemplate suicide might make him feel in control of his life without actually wanting to commit suicide. Knowing that he is battling mental health issues makes him unpredictable and unsure about himself and his surroundings, and because of this Holden would do anything to have stability. This is why many would argue that Holden is suicidal because he desires to be free of his problems and to him suicide might seem like the answer. However, we know that he wouldn't perform such an act because his brothers death haunts him throughout the novel. His thoughts constantly drift to his late brother and proves as a painful reminder on why he must stay for his mother and his sister.
ReplyDelete-Andrea Pagano
I completely agree with Riley and Zuri. It had never crossed my mind that Holden was ever suicidal. To me, the thought of suicide for him showed how much fear he had of the unknown. Perhaps, even if he were suicidal, he never went through with it because even for that he was scared of not knowing what comes after death. In many ways, Holden is just like other teens that are confused and scared for the unpredictable future. He is rather compulsive in various aspects. For example, when Holden requests for a prostitute, he goes back to his room and he starts getting nervous. In the end, he does not go through with it. This is just one of many instances where Holden acts on impulse but does not stick with his original plan. We saw that he was nervous, scared, and for what? Change. He knew that by going through with his plan, he would be different after. Another time he changes his mind is when he tells Sally that he loves her. He then confesses to the reader that he lied, but he meant it when he said it. One last example of his behavior is when he suggests to Sally that they leave New York and get married. Afterwards, we find out that even if Sally had said she would go, he would not have taken her. Holden seems to fear change, however, he longs for it even though he does not know it himself. I think that in the many instances that he acts or thinks compulsively, he lies to himself and to others. In all of this, I see the irony and the hypocrisy of Holden. He claims that everyone else is phony. Yet, he constantly lies to others and to himself, making him just as phony as the rest. However, he does not see it that way. Holden sees it as him just being a good liar. But perhaps he admits to being a good liar because he has the capability of lying to himself. With all of the compulsiveness and lying we see that he has his fear and does not want change or unpredictability. This is why I do not think that he was ever suicidal. I think that he over-analyzed, was scared of changing and the unknown.
ReplyDelete-Reese McElmoyl
Throughout the novel, Holden’s actions and thoughts become increasingly depressing. I agree with Lillie Conradi in that Holden was suicidal at certain points. The fact that he never went through with it does not take away from his sudden plunge in emotional health. Some of my peers make a valid point in saying that he only contemplated suicide in a “childish, detached manner.” However, he reaches a certain peak of depression after his encounters with Maurice and the prostitute that make it dangerous to have that idea in his head despite his childish nature. In fact, his childish impulses are the catalysts of his suicidal thoughts. I found myself hoping for something or someone to help him change his attitude but his thoughts became more deadly. Ironically, every time he interacted with someone he longed for a feeling of inclusion but each interaction only furthered his alienation. In my opinion, he tries to hide his true feelings from the reader with jokes and shallow justifications. For example, after he has suicidal thoughts in page 104 he explains, “The goddamn movies. They can ruin you. I’m not kidding.” I found the scene quite humorous because he attempts to blame his bizarre, gory thoughts on the movies that he supposedly never watches. I believe he was just feeling extremely depressed and did not know how to justify his suicidal thoughts. However, later in the novel, he begins to recover from his sudden peak of depression when he reunites with Pheobe.
ReplyDelete-Lizeth Estrada
It is completely evident and provable that Holden suffers from depression, anxiety, and death all around him. Holden even admits to be depressed constantly throughout the novel and performs actions that help calms himself down, for example, turning the water on and off in the bathroom with Stradlater, and from this we can assume Holden has a distressful internal conflict throughout the story. With that also in mind, we can assume Holden's actions are mostly based upon this, based upon his "yellowness" just when he reacts to Sally Hayes rejection. With his mental illnesses, suicide does come with the same package, so I believe Holden does contemplate suicide even if he does not come out with the idea. His mental illnesses is a huge deciding factor to what Holden portrays through actions and/or words, with basically his contemplation of suicide being one of these deciding factors. There's no exact reason as to why Holden decided to keep his difficult life but If I had to chose, I believe Holden chose not to commit suicide during his exaggerated freezing to death moment at the duck pond in Central Park is because he starts to think about his death and his funeral, what phonies and jerks would attend, and then he remembers how horrific it'd be for his mother who still mourns the loss of her son, Allie and how his sister Phoebe being sad at his death stops Holden from staying in the park and freezing to death. It is his love for his sister, Phoebe, that keeps Holden from committing suicide; something he would end up regretting after death.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI disagree in that Holden has an obsession with death. It’s normal for him to think about it with the death of Allie. After analyzing the passages on page 154-155 I have concluded that his thoughts on death are not morbid in any way. I don’t think Holden was actually contemplating suicide. I believe he’s just criticizing the way people act towards someone once they’re dead and it’s too late. As Holden would say, they’d act like a bunch of phonies at his funeral. He just wants to be dumped in a river because he’ll simply be dead and not care about what happens. In the end, funerals are for the living not the dead. It’s for people to receive closure and feel better.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Brandon Sanchez that it’s a big possibility Holden had Borderline Personality Disorder. Yes even though it’s an extreme fear of abandonment and frequent occasions of self-harm; it might not seem like Holden experiences these things but he does. Yes he chose to alienate himself from others but that’s common with the fear of abandonment. To him it would make sense that if he chooses to abandon people before they get the chance to, then he’d be ok. Even though in both scenarios he ends up alone, he’s the one taking control of the situation. Overall, a big arrow is pointed towards Holden having Borderline Personality Disorder since he has an impulsive behavior, unstable relationships with people, and highly changeable moods.
-Paola Ochoa
I feel that Holden is taking a such careless approach to his own death because he may feel that nobody would be concerned with his death. He probably is not seriously contemplating the consequences of suicide (aside from death) but is likely to be just yearning to feel loved so that people would attend his funeral along with a proper burial. Seeing as how he was freezing to death in the park by himself, his troubles may have finally gotten to him, and he may have been wishing that he had done more to prevent him from getting where he is now. He doesn't clearly feel sorry for himself, but seems to think that he isn't worthy of a proper burial, even though he doesn't admit it. When he said he would just go home to visit Pheobe in case he died, I interpreted this not only as sarcasm, but also as another indication of a lack of self worth and somewhat low self esteem. Up until this part of the story, Holden had acted as if he was above everyone else in a sense, be he finally acknowledges that he is vulnerable and has made a mistake, that being drunk and freezing to death in the cold.
ReplyDeleteAs Holden told about the suicide at Pencey, I wondered: is this why he seems to hate everyone there? He may have been haunted by the fact that someone had literally been bullied to the point of committing suicide-while he was wearing his turtleneck sweater. Holden points out that he almost didn't lend the sweater to him, almost sounding as if he felt sorry that he hesitated to give it to him. This could also explain why Holden sees so many people as mere 'phonies.' It seems that he has developed a general distrust of many people that he comes across due to his past experiences with students and teachers that he had met at Pencey. Lastly, this would also explain why he strongly desired to run away with sally; to escape from the cruel world he lived in with someone that he could share a future with.
Death is a prominent theme throughout this captivating novel. Holden Caulfield constantly speaks on the subject of death quite often and even speaks of committing suicide. Throughout the novel, he reiterates how depressed he is and how much he wants to die. He regularly speaks of the death his little brother Allie and the suicide of his former classmate whom he had lent a turtleneck. Although he constantly speaks of the previous deaths that have occurred in his life, I do not believe that Holden is obsessed with death, I think he is traumatized because of everything that he had witnessed, the many years before. If Holden wanted to kill himself he would have done it from the very beginning. He steadily speaks of death, but he is too scared and innocent to actually do so. To add, Holden cares so much for his little sister Phoebe, that he would not do such thing to her. She even gets upset with Holden after he told her that he was going to move to West.
ReplyDeleteI mainly believe that the death of his little brother is what brings Holden to become psychotic. Ever since Allie passed, it has deeply affected Holden and has caused him to become very depressed in a sense where he even admits it from time to time. Holden mentions on page 129, “when I get very depressed, I keep saying to him, “Okay. Go home and get your bike and meet me in front of Bobby’s house”. After re-reading this phrase and connecting it to the rest of the book, I notice that whenever Holden says he is “depressed” he follows with a story of Allie. Because of this, I came to realize that Allie is the sole reason of why Holden is the way he is.
I agree with Trinity that death is a prominent topic discussed throughout the book. I do not think that Holden is suicidal, but rather thinks about death often due to all of the traumatic events that have occurred in his life. Although Holden states bluntly in chapter 14 that he felt like committing suicide, I do not think he meant it solemnly. As Riley and Lilliana stated, he is aware that suicide is always an option, however he would never follow through with it because of Phoebe. In chapter 20, Holden starts to ponder on his own death because of the possibility of getting pneumonia. This scene is significant because while reflecting upon his own death he starts to think about Allie and Phoebe. I think that the both of them are driving factors to why he would like to remain alive. He considers the outcome of his death and most importantly, the effect it would have on Phoebe. Holden mentions, “I started thinking how old Phoebe would feel if I got pneumonia and died. It was a childish way to think, but I couldn't stop myself. She'd feel pretty bad if something like that happened. She likes me a lot. I mean she's quite fond of me. She really is.” He also says, “The only good thing, I knew she wouldn't let old Phoebe come to my goddam funeral because she was only a little kid. That was the only good part.” Everytime Holden recalls a memory about Phoebe, he always mentions feeling joyful especially while bonding with her. She is important to Holden and I think she is the reason why he does not let his depression lead to suicide. Ultimately, I think that Holden merely pictures the impacts of his death- especially on his family- rather than actually wanting it to occur.
ReplyDelete-Mariza Zaratan
Allie, who is the brother of Holden, passed away when they were at a young age, which concludes that his death has done damage to Holden’s mindset. His mental state is also affected because he thinks about committing suicide and constantly thinks about Allie and what he could’ve done to be a better brother to him. It’s been years since Allie’s death and Holden can’t seem to get over it such as when he is depressed, he talks to Allie as if he’s right next to him and thinks back at the time he didn’t let Allie come along when Holden went biking to one of his friend’s house. Although he thinks about committing suicide, he rethinks again and does not do it. I believe that he thinks about committing suicide is because it is the only way out of what is currently happening to him right now and the past events such as getting beat up by Maurice, getting shut down by the three girls at the Lavender room, knowing Jane went on a date with Stradlater, Allie’s death and many more.
ReplyDelete-Mikayla Abille
I agree with Riley in that Holden never really considered committing suicide. I think he was just acting very pessimistic and closed minded. Holden, like many other teenagers, is just confused and depressed of the past events that have happened his in life. The death of his younger brother had the most impact to his mental health that maybe it has caused him to be afraid of death while at the same time be comfortable talking about it. It is proven that Allie's death is a sensitive matter to Holden when Stradlater rejects Holden's work on Allie's baseball mitt description. This causes Holden to become frustrated and tore apart all the work he has done. As Mariza has stated, Holden is really sensitive around family material, especially with Allie and Phoebe. Holden ponders around the idea of death and committing suicide but does not actually follow through because of Phoebe and Allie. I feel as if Phoebe keeps Holden calm and gives Holden a reason to grow up and mature. In the beginning of the novel, Holden's thoughts reflected his maturity. But towards the end of the novel when Holden is saying goodbye to Phoebe for the last time he decides to not leave because of Phoebe.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to Holden contemplating suicide, I do not think he is necessarily suicidal but just depressed. He experienced Allie's death at a very young age and was well aware of his mother's nervous breakdowns. It has become evident that these traumatizing events have haunted him into adolescence and he still thinks about it frequently. Even as a teenager he experiences traumatizing events such as the bloody fights with Stradlater and Maurice as previous students have mentioned. I think Holden just overthinks the thought of death, but he doesn't want to die. This becomes evident after Mr. Antolini tells him that quote from Willhem Stekel, "The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one" (Ch. 24, pg. 244). He progressively thinks about death as he walks through New York City in fear that he won't make it to the next block (Ch. 25, pg. 256), and he faers that he has cancer after reading a magazine that says cancer can be indicated through mouth sores (pg. 254). I believe the ghost that is haunting Holden is Allie, but rather than haunting, Allie's spirit is guarding Holden. I believe Allie's death motivates Holden to live life to the fullest rather than cut it short.
ReplyDeleteI agree with my peers that Holden was not suicidal, despite the countless times he brought up the topic of death. However, I believe this is all due to the traumatic events he encountered while growing up and it has taken a negative toll on him and his state of mind. While growing up, he was exposed to the death of his beloved younger brother, Allie. As a result, he punched all of the windows in the garage which handicapped his hand. He is no longer capable of making a fist, this is significant because he has to live his life with the remembrance of that event. Allie will always be remembered when Holden looks at his hand, which the death of Allie will always be connected to him. Making Holden accepting his death a difficult challenge. Holden has no sight of direction in his life, not having any goals or aspirations. Seeing the world and his peers negatively are all in relation to why he talks about suicide numerous times. His mind is working in many different direction and he does not know what to do. As teenagers we can relate to this, being scared of what the future holds and believing things will not get better. We believe the only solution to get rid of this horrific and negative feeling is suicide. Holden contemplates suicide, yet he finds solutions and ways out of it. Memories of Phoebe and Allie come to mind and how Phoebe would be shattered if Holden were to die. Holden strives to be the catcher in the rye and protect the innocence of the young because his innocence was taken away. With him gone, Phoebe will be exposed to horrible things the world and people have to offer.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the novel, I truly believed that Holden suffered from a mental illness such as depression or an anxiety disorder. I believe Holden contemplates suicide as a way of escaping the suffering and the sadness of his daily day. His whole idea of life is depressing and even his little sister Phoebe can see that. She mentions that Holden doesn’t “like anything that’s happening”, that he doesn’t like any schools and he doesn’t like a million things (pg. 220). Phoebe’s assumptions are quite true, we always see Holden complaining and thinking how depressive things are. Anything he sees he always finds a reason to mock at it or hate it.
ReplyDeleteI think Holden doesn’t commit suicide because he is scared of the reactions. He has mention that his mother suffers from anxiety and she is always nervous. That’s why, when he thinks about committing suicide, he talks about not being seen by anyone, not even unknown jerks and phonies. I feel like if Holden knew that no one he cared about got to know about his death, he will commit suicide.
-Paulina Quesada
A common action that Holden seems to enjoy doing is pretending. Whether it is in the act of pretending to die, pretending to kill others (or, to be more specific, imagining Maurice’s death), or even pretending to communicate with his deceased brother Allie, the idea of placing oneself in a different world clearly appeals to Holden as it gives him a temporary solution from his problems. As someone who has experienced depression firsthand and has witnessed others who have grieved over the loss of their loved ones, I can affirm that wanting to get away from a situation or to be able to find closure with a departed friend or family member is a common desire. This idea of “getting away” relates to Holden’s suicidal thoughts as they may just be a way for him to distract himself from the problems that continuously prod at him, such as the need to solidify his grand plan to move out into the middle of nowhere in the West and to confront his family. That is not to say that Holden does not have a serious intent of committing suicide; however, there are many people who often think of such acts when they are in despair, but do not actually kill themselves as they either receive help from others or have a sense of hope to overcome their emotions.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, Holden not only enjoys pretending to be involved in death-related things, but he also relishes in adopting false identities -- which, again, is another form of avoiding problems. Such instances that prove this include his encounter with Mrs. Morrow, where he took on the name of Pencey’s janitor, Rudolf Schmidt and pretended to be in need of surgery in order to dodge questions about getting kicked out of school. Another interesting example of this is the consistency of his lie that he is either of age to drink or to receive services like his “throw” with Sunny, which is rather ironic as he is a youth who seems to yearn for things to stay the same, but also desires to indulge in the pleasures of adult life. Although Holden is evidently a capricious teenager to quite a far extent and displays signs of psychological imbalance as far as his identity and his tendency to resort to extreme thoughts, I can still see that he still has many qualities of a “normal” teenager through his curiosity and the way that he analyzes the world.
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ReplyDeleteThere is an eerie amount of references towards death and suicide that left me feeling worried for Holden. He frequently implies that he wants to kill himself and constantly reminds the reader how depressed and lonely he is feeling. I believe that Allie’s death deeply troubled Holden emotionally and psychologically and ties back to his pensive and depressive train of thoughts. There are many alarming scenes throughout the book that make me believe that Holden wants to be dead or wants to be with Allie. In many cases, Holden communicates with Allie, somehow looking up to him for protection. For instance, in chapter 25, every time Holden crossed the street, he “had the feeling that [he’d] never get to the other side of the street.” He turns to Allie and asks him to not let him disappear. In a different scenario, chapter 14, Holden begins to talk out loud to Allie because he felt depressed and miserable. I think he feels responsible for his death, especially since he was his older brother, and tries to reach out to him in an effort to find closure.
ReplyDeleteBecause Holden finds life meaningless and phony, he would feel no remorse for his mom or dad if he were to kill himself, no one except maybe for Phoebe. Other than Allie, she seems to be the only person who he truly cares about. For Holden, there is no difference between life and death because he feels miserable being alive.
When reading The Catcher in the Rye I notice Holden had the same symptoms as depression. Holden has metal disorder based on his discontent, inability to feel pleasure, loss of interest, lack of sleep, excessive crying, agitation, irritability, social isolation, suicidal thoughts also poor appetite, and repeatedly going over thoughts. In chapter 25 Holden was experiencing dizziness headache and nausea these can all be signs of a migraine a person with depression or anxiety has a higher chance of getting migraine fainting is very common which can explain Holden passing out at the museum. The traumatic event that Holden experienced was his brother Allies death. Allies death holds a toll on Holden's life. When asked by Phoebe what does "One thing you like a lot", Holden is unable to answer and says he likes Allies. Holden states ,"I know hes dead! Don't you think I know that? I can still like him though, can't I? Just because somebody's dead, don't just stop liking them, for God's sake- especially if they were thousand times nicer than the people you know that're alive and all". Holden still carries his brothers death with him, I believe this is the reason he is constantly criticizing those around him. After the death of his brother he wasn't able to cope he explains "I was only thirteen, and they were going to have me psychoanalyzed and all, because I broke all the windows in the garage. I don't blame them. I really don't. I slept in the garage the night he died, and I broke all the goddam windows with my fist, just for the hell of it. I even tried to break all the windows on the station wagon we had that summer, but my hand was already broken and everything by that time, and I couldn't do it". His reaction to his brothers death is the reason that Allie's the ghost that drives Holden.
ReplyDeleteWhen reading The Catcher in the Rye I notice Holden had the same symptoms as depression. Holden has metal disorder based on his discontent, inability to feel pleasure, loss of interest, lack of sleep, excessive crying, agitation, irritability, social isolation, suicidal thoughts also poor appetite, and repeatedly going over thoughts. In chapter 25 Holden was experiencing dizziness headache and nausea these can all be signs of a migraine a person with depression or anxiety has a higher chance of getting migraine fainting is very common which can explain Holden passing out at the museum. The traumatic event that Holden experienced was his brother Allies death. Allies death holds a toll on Holden's life. When asked by Phoebe what does "One thing you like a lot", Holden is unable to answer and says he likes Allies. Holden states ,"I know hes dead! Don't you think I know that? I can still like him though, can't I? Just because somebody's dead, don't just stop liking them, for God's sake- especially if they were thousand times nicer than the people you know that're alive and all". Holden still carries his brothers death with him, I believe this is the reason he is constantly criticizing those around him. After the death of his brother he wasn't able to cope he explains "I was only thirteen, and they were going to have me psychoanalyzed and all, because I broke all the windows in the garage. I don't blame them. I really don't. I slept in the garage the night he died, and I broke all the goddam windows with my fist, just for the hell of it. I even tried to break all the windows on the station wagon we had that summer, but my hand was already broken and everything by that time, and I couldn't do it". His reaction to his brothers death is the reason that Allie's the ghost that drives Holden.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden is driven by a ghost but not the ghost of James Castle. I believe that he is driven by the death of his younger brother Allie. This is possible because of Holden's actions the day his brother died. Besides his younger sister Phoebe and his friend Jane Gallagher, Holden gives the reader a sense that Allie was one of the only people he ever truly loved and appreciated. It seems to me that Holden doesn't know how to deal with loss and that's why he is an alcoholic and smoker in the novel. He is driven by the haunting of his brother, maybe prompting some sort of depression onto Holden. We can now understand most of Holden's character. He cannot handle death and wants to hold on to what he truly loves: his sister, Phoebe.
ReplyDeleteI feel that Caulfield is haunted more by depression than anything else. He is constantly negative and always wants to gripe about everything. Caulfield also always says how depressed and sad he is about everything. Since I have never felt depression I can't say that understood his sudden onset of sadness at some points, it always seemed to happen when he was alone or after he met a certain characte, like his old teachers or the nuns on the train. They were seemingly random,but would always have some similarity such as those I stated above. Maybe his brothers death affected him in a way that was underestimated by the character himself. It's sometimes hard to tell because Caulfield is so unreliable.
ReplyDeleteI would argue that Holden is being haunted by two ghosts; his younger brother Allie and James Castle. This can be seen in this quote, “Every time I’d get to the end of the block I’d make believe I was talking to my brother Allie. I’d say to him, ‘Allie, don’t let me disappear. Allie, don’t let me disappear. Please Allie”(257). Despite having died some years ago Holden cannot seem to let go of his brother the same holds true for the death of James Castle.
ReplyDeleteThe reason for this is that I believe Holden holds him self responsible for their deaths. This might be another motivator for Holden leaving Pencey. Perhaps he simply wished to avoid remembering the James Castle's mangled body. That might also be why he waited three days until he returned. So he wouldn't have to remember the pain on his family's face after Allie's death. In short the "ghosts" or memories of Allie and James ultimately contributed to Holden setting out on his three day excursion.
I don't think Holden will seriously consider committing suicide. But I do believe he may suffer from depression, which isn't always reliant on mood but behavior as well. I think with Allie's death, the constant changes with school, and his life back home has a lot to do with his mental stability during the time. I think Holden has a tendency to hold on to his past troubles. He allows burdens to sit upon his shoulders and put him in moods that are unavoidable given the circumstance. I think Holden fears he is haunted by loss. The loss of connections, love, family; things of the sort. I can not say that him being depressed dismisses the possibility of suicide because living with a mental disorder like depression will drive you to do whatever you think will help i'm sure.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden is haunted by both the deaths of Allie and James Castle, these two instances of loss drive him into a life of isolation where he seems to fear getting close to people to avoid ever having to lose them in a way like death.
-Jayla Hudson
Holden talks about how depressed he is, how lonely he is, and how certain situations lead him to consider the idea of committing suicide because of the lasting affect of his brother, Allie's death. When Holden is alone, he resorts to talking to Allie as if he's there or continuously thinks about the the memories with Allie back when they were young children. This all leads back to the question of "Is Holden contemplating suicide or not?" and in my opinion, I believe he doesn't, not because of the jerks or phonies that will attend his funeral, but because he does not have a wholesome reason to do it. He does have a sense of guilt when it comes to thinking about his brother's death such as when he didn't allow Allie to tag along with him as he rode his bike to one of his friend's house, but this guilt isn't strong enough to take over his mental state and to committing suicide. Although Holden is constantly alone and dissatisfied with his surroundings that lead to his depression, however, Holden is not contemplating on committing suicide.
ReplyDelete-Mikayla Lubong
It just seems that Holden holds on to everything in his past. He constantly alludes to past events and to personal anecdotes. The fact that he holds on to so much means that there very well could be a ghost in this novel. I believe the primary apparition is his brother Allie. The dead hit him very hard and as he constantly refers to his brother and insists we would have liked him had he lived on. Unlike, his brother’s death, Holden does not seem to be as fazed by Castle’s suicide. It appears that he told us about the suicide more to let the reader know more about Mr. Antolini’s personality rather than to reflect on his poor Castle’s death. Overall, Allie’s death is most likely the major phantom to Holden and continually affects his thoughts and actions.
ReplyDelete-Liam Brewster
I imagine the death of someone as close as a younger brother can damage someone psychologically. The death of Allie would be a huge burden on Holden. As an older brother Holden may have felt it was his responsibility to watch over Allie and protect him, and since the death he may feel like he fails or owes something because of it. In the book The Death and Life of Charlie Saint Cloud the main character Charlie feels guilty for his younger brothers death in a car accident so he puts his life on pause and everyday visits the spot he would play catch with his deceased brother. At a part in this story Charlie has to let go of his guilt and stop visiting his younger brother and move on with life. I can see the resemblance in Holden when he was walking the streets at night telling Allie to not leave him. Holden clearly is still tethered to Allie and this affects all his decisions.
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree with the fact Holden is a character that is obsessed with death. He does not fail to mention the death of his brother Allie in a very casual way, but also he seems to do this because that death has been the one haunting him, to my understanding. It was the first important death he dealt with, this because he had a soft spot for his brother and he was truly a person he didn't see as "phony" or unimportant. I believe this death drives Holden as he makes other remarks about death, including his own.
ReplyDeleteWhen he says he would not like "jerks" or "phonies" to attend his funeral and that he would much rather just be thrown out into a river, I thought of how depressing that would be to witness. Even though Holden gives a lot of importance to the death of others, mentioning his brother Allie's, the suicide of his classmate James Castle; with his death he seems to be sort of careless.This makes me start to think that Holden has contemplated on suicide, and maybe he would rather die that way than have certain people attend his funeral, and have his mom react the way he predicts.
I think his obsession with death is a key physiological aspect that has a huge impact in the way Holden acts and what his thoughts involve. I also think that another aspect that impacts his thoughts and actions is his inconformity with the world around him that makes him feel insecure. Even the simplest thing such as physical appearance; he is a 16 year old boy with gray hair. That is not a very common thing for usual teenagers. Additionally, he does not like to act just like everyone else, and he mocks football, preps, etc. These factors contribute to the type of things teenagers are interested in, but Holden is not. Also, he makes remarks towards women, and has these thoughts that are out of his time. Being that this sort of thinking was not common until much later. So, with this Holden becomes an outsider in his generation, and with the more obvious abstract qualities he has, I think he feels insecure. Insecurity has driven this character to have this annoyance, anger, and a bit of hate towards other people and things.
This physiological aspect is a common one among teenagers, and very often it contributes to the way a young adult acts and thinks.
Aside from obsession with death, I believe insecurity is another driving aspect in Holden's life that makes him act the way he does and have those thoughts we as readers get to witness.
I agree with Liam Brewster in saying that the ghost that drives Holden throughout his journey is his dead brother Allie. The death of his brother certainly had may psychological effects on our narrator since the night Allie died Holden broke all the windows in the garage. Holden loved Allie and admired his good nature so he constantly looks for his guidance and help for security, "Every time I'd get to the end of a block I'd make believe I was talking to my brother Allie. I'd say to him, 'Allie, don't let me disappear. Allie, don't let me disappear. Allie, don't let me disappear. Please, Allie'"(chapter 25, page 197).
ReplyDeleteThere also seems to be another aspect of Holden's psychology that's worth noting. Holden mentioned that "perverty" stuff has happened to him. For example, after the incident with Mr. Antolini, Holden says, "I know more damn perverts, at schools and all, than anybody you ever met, and they're always being perverty when I'm around" and "[perverty] stuff's happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid" (Ch 24, pg 192-193). Whether Holden is exaggerating or not, these events seemed to have effects on how he viewed certain aspects of his world. It could be the reason why he views sex as degrading.
-Alan Contreras
Obviously, the ghost of this story is Caulfield’s dead brother Allie. He longs for him throughout the story as he tries to figure out why he is so broken over his death. There are many things in this story that have come to symbolize his longing for a connection between himself and his brother. The most important is probably the recurring question that he asks each taxicab driver. “Do you know where the ducks go in the wintertime?” What an absurd question to ask someone especially when they honestly ain’t got a clue. Caulfield has an existential crisis and questions his life and even his brothers. He frowns at the thought that everything dies in the lake when it is frozen and instead comes to the conclusion that it is partly frozen and partly not. He means to say there is no permanency to anything; it is all cyclical. Life and death. Childhood and adulthood. Everything will come full circle.
ReplyDelete-Antonio Robledo
As Jasmine said before Holden does show signs of depression but I believe that he had no intent in taking his own life. Although constantly throughout the novel Holden kept making the reader believe that he had a mental illness it is clear. Therefore making him unstable but that still does not justify that Holden is suicidal. When Phoebe was introduced into the story he goes on, on how he hated leaving her out of things but that she was smart enough to know to meddle in some things. I believe that Phoebe is one of the things that was keeping Holden from being suicidal because he didn't want to leave her.
ReplyDeleteI also feel that it’s just simply that Holden dislikes mostly everybody but he has no stable friends that is why in the end he talked about missing Ackley and Stradlater. This goes back to previously stated of him being unstable thus having few friends. It also shows us why he attaches himself so quickly to people. For example a few people he gets attached to are Jean, Sally, and even Ackley when he went to his room in the middle of the night after he got into a fight with Stradlater. This shows that he is dependent on people but not really suicidal.
While reading the book and getting to know the characters I personally did not imagine that Holden would ever consider committing suicide this is due to all of the confidence that he had. Despite this, there was just one factor that this protagonist lacked on, and it was the relationship with other people. I believe that this was what triggered Holden to think about taking his own life for the better of things. The reason for this is that throughout the book there is no clear friendship or bond made by other people during school. Furthermore he barely has the opportunity to see his family which causes a lack of interaction with other people causing for depression and loneliness to develop. The thing that is keeping Holden alive is when he visits his sister Phoebe, this small interaction with a family member is what gives Holden a reason to live for and continue to stay alive which makes Holden not think about taking his precious life. A perfect example that Holden loves his sister is when he stands up for her such as when he had to become the new older brother of the family after Allie’s death. The thing that is keeping Holden alive is the small interaction with the family despite all the deaths occurring near him.
ReplyDelete-Diego Arriola
As some of my peers have stated, Holden was not contemplating suicide. For example, there is the traumatic event where his younger brother, who he truly cared about, died. I believe he was only thinking about the idea of death, and wondering what would have happened if he died. Also, he mentions phonies and jerks would come to his funeral. He probably believes that due to how he portrays everyone in society. He is not close to many, so he knows many acquaintances, who he probably did not have a great relationship with, would attend. I believe he thinks about these occurrences because he is sad and awfully affected by his brother’s death.
ReplyDeleteI believe this novel does have a “ghost story”. The death of his brother which occurred earlier in his life has made a huge impact on Holden. This event is probably what drives Holden to act the way he is. This also explains why he feels as if no one understands him, and he is all alone in his society.
- Janelle Douglas
From the opening paragraph of the book it can be seen that Holden is telling his story from a mental facility. As well as through out the story Holden constantly mentions that he feels sad, lonesome or depressed. Although he may have considered suicide in some point in his life I don't believe he would follow through with it. Considering that he experienced what the death of his brother Allie did to him and his family I don't think he would be able to commit suicide. The extent of his mental illness is show after he left Mr. Antolini's house and was walking down Fifth Avenue. He talks about how whenever he stepped off a curb he had a feeling he would never reach the other side. He would the pretend that he was talking to Allie and say "Allie, don't let me disappear.Allie, don't let me disappear.Allie, don't let me disappear. Please, Allie"(Salinger 198). This would happen over and over again.
ReplyDelete-David Valentin
As my peers have said before I do believe that Holden's experiences to death such as the death of his younger brother Allie and the Suicide of James took some sort of toll on Holden and his view on life. Although he could have been affected by these deaths I do not think that Holden himself would actually commit suicide I just think that their deaths have caused psychological damage to Holden and his view on things, for instance his ideas on burials and funerals. This can be seen on chapter 20 when he says "anything except sticking me in a goddamn cemetery... who wants flowers when you're dead?" This further reinerates that the deaths of his brother and his friend impacted Holden's views but did not make him suicidal or depressed.
ReplyDeleteSuicide plays an important role in this novel in that it is used as an "escape" to the realities that many teenagers face. Holden Caulfield ponders suicide not so much in the action but rather, what would the world be like if he was not around. Many of us can relate as we have all pondered this question, but the reasons leading up to this morbid thought is rather one of displacement. Holden probably thought about this because of the fact throughout his bouts in New York, he has still yet to find a place to "fit-in". Many times as teenagers all we want is to fit-in, or else we will feel as though the world rid us as "misfits" and have no sole purpose on this earth. I felt very emotional during the scene Holden tells Phoebe of his classmate, James Castle, who committed suicide. The scenario that led up to James jumping out of that window can be very relatable as he was just a puny kid who got bullied. Many times, individuals who get picked on have a sense of feeling "unwanted" or "out of placed" because of the fact that they are "different." Holden recalls this memory because he was probably at the brink of feeling detached from this world as he felt as though he could not connect with anyone. I feel as though Holden is just like many of us who try to find a purpose in this "God-forsaken" earth.
ReplyDelete-Nathan Malicdem
ReplyDeleteI noticed that Holden often likes to judge others, no matter what class they're from, what race, or what gender. He does this pretty evenly; I don’t see him targeting the upper class in particular. I can see how the Marxist perspective comes into play though, the deep admiration he has for the nuns, or rather, their lifestyle in particular. I realize that he would appreciate a lot of people more if they were to adopt the same way of life. I also began to notice that Holden uses two words in particular to describe positive and negative perspectives. For the rich lifestyle, the movies, or anything he mildly dislikes, he will regard them to be 'phony', and when he sees something that he is able to sympathize with, or that I feel he appreciates, he will refer to it with pity. For example, the nuns, at some point, eat breakfast at the same restaurant as he does, send while he orders eggs, and a decent amount of food, he finds it 'sad' that the nuns order only coffee and toast. I believe that this is his way of positively viewing others, because he sees himself as a rich phony himself, there is really no other way to view them. He can't view them as a peer, because he was raised in a lavish lifestyle, but he can't help but admire what they do.
-Kayla Manness
I agree that the Allie's death had detrimental effects on Holden's mentality and was probably the starting point of his fascination with death and his wish for death, itself at times. I would also like to address the fact that Holden can be perceived as a pathological liar, for example, the scene where he meets Mrs. Morrow on the train from Pencey. There was no benefit from lying, neither would there be any consequence for being candid. I found this to be quite ironic, keeping in mind Holden's contempt for phonies.
ReplyDeleteIt is completely evident that the main theme of this novel is isolation. However, when the audiences becomes more attent towards the way Holden reacts to certain situations, it is evident that Holden isn't completely normal. I noticed this particularly when Holden talks about death and how phony people would react if he ever died. When I read this, the first thing that came to my mind was that Holden was going to commit a suicide attempt. I didnt think it was normal for a young boy to have those thoughts. However, what particularly caught my attention was that Holden was more worried about who would come to his funeral other than how much pain he would cause to his family. Through this part of the novel was when I truly realized that Holden was more worried about the way people viewed him, and how they would remember. This takes me back to my point about isolation. I believe that Holden isolates himself mainly because he might be having suicidal thoughts and doesnt want to get to emotionally attached to anyone, not even his own family.
ReplyDeleteWell from my view I see why Holden at first wanted to be isolated and alienated in his society because he never wanted to be emotionally attached to anyone because he didn't want any betrayal and thing that might completing distinct him or make him sad. and now I don't blame him for wanting alienation because the one time he decided to really adore and care for someone he is now being haunted by both the death of allie and also James castle and this two instances of loss drives him into a life time of depression and regrets and this makes me understand that maybe his greatest fear might be if he gets close to people he is completely afraid that he might loose them to a great tragedy. and its really easy to determine that once a person is easily driven into this kind of senseless thinking the next thing that would be in his mind would be completely suicide which is another aspect no one wants to get into to deep. which leads to the contemplated question of suicide? earlier on in the passage. Just like another person it wouldn't be really be easy to try and clear your head from all the traumatic events that happen and occur every time and his great lose for him is something that could keep ringing in his head as his fault I could also relate this aspect to with Holden I remember I lost a very close person too and this made me just want to completely alienate myself but after sometime of a little like help from friends and family members I was able to recover from that stress and shock and so this are of options that you even wish fir your worst enemy but when they happen you must learnt to adapt to this situations even if they seem really hard.
ReplyDelete