Dear AP students:
One of the perspectives from which we
will frequently examine a novel is from that of the "Hero's journey"
or "quest". Think about Ulysses, the Greek hero. He goes on
this journey to get back home after the Trojan War, and during the journey
he undergoes all these trials and tribulations. Another example...think of the
first Star Wars episode ( the original one)--in which Luke Skywalker goes on a
quest to save the rest of the galaxy from the Evil Empire.
On many quests the main character receives some
sort of advice from a mentor or spiritual leader--think of Obe Wan Kenobe in
Star Wars, or that wizard in Lord of the Rings. You can probably think of some
more mystical mentors from other novels or movies. We will find this
pattern of "mentor" showing up in almost every novel we read.
You could say that in Catcher in the Rye the
main character is on a "journey" or "quest" for something.
He is definitely on a journey through New York. But what I find striking
in this novel is that he lacks a suitable mentor who can straighten him out and
allow him to find his inner strength/power (i.e. "the force is within you,
young Skywalker"). Luce doesn't cut it, and perhaps the modern version of
a mentor, the psychoanalyst (Luce's father) won't be able to do it
either. Nor does that old History teacher back at Pencey Prep. His
parents are certainly not his mentors. Maybe Salinger was trying to tell
us that life in mid 20th century for that generation of youth, and future
generations, meant not having access to a mentor (because they were adult and
therefore phony)--that we were on our own, and that life was going to be
very lonely and accompanied by many moments of helplessness?
How sad. How bleak.
What do you think?
Throughout the novel, it definitely seemed as though there was an acute cynicism meant to reflect some kind of bitterness maintained at personal experience regarding the author's efforts perhaps to develop his own writing style and convey a genuine voice that would be completely honest with audiences rather than depicting a "phony" image of what in fact was a cruel mid-nineteenth century. This cold sentiment shows in the main character's pessimistic view of popular culture and harsh criticisms of the masses as well as his constant need to feel mature through the consumption of alcohol and cigarettes. Nevertheless, there is a recurring theme presented in the book regarding the purity and innocence of family and those for whom we deeply care that seemingly aids in the guidance of the corrupt and lost. For example, in chapter 23 on pages 232 and 233 there is a dialogue between Holden and his younger sister Phoebe that followed as such, "'Here,' old Phoebe said. She was trying to give me the dough, but she couldn't find my hand. 'Where?' She put the dough in my hand. 'Hey, I don't need all this,' I said. 'Just give me two bucks, is all. No kidding- Here.' I tried to give it back to her, but she wouldn't take it. 'You can take it all. You can pay me back. Bring it to the play.' 'How much is it for God's sake?' 'Eight dollars and eighty-five cents. Sixty-five cents. I spent some.' Then all of a sudden I started to cry." It is in moments like these that I believe author J.D. Salinger is attempting to express his opinion concerning the ability to attain wisdom in uncoventional ways. Despite having been unable to make any progress academically in some of the finest schools in the country with some of the most patient and passionate educators, in the end, Holden chooses to pursue his intellectual journey ultimately because of his siblings. That even with every available resource the main character would still not try to apply himself and better prepare himself to succeed in life so as to discover his true purpose, but his younger sister of only ten years would reshape his way of thinking and lead him to change his life forever is remarkable. In his writing, I think the author attempts to convey to readers that they should not be afraid to look to loved ones for guidance in times of uncertainty, and that as maturing members of society, it is okay to become lost, to be afraid, and to feel alone. However, we can never truly outrun our problems and must rely on those who truly care about us to aid us in times of difficulty. This is not to say that as modern culture would suggest we can look to others to provide all, for while their are friends with whom every hero shares his journey, it is ultimately their quest to fulfill, their choices to make, and their life to live.
ReplyDeleteHolden is on a quest in Catcher in the Rye. I believe this quest is to stay pure in childhood and not be corrupted in adulthood. Another quest of his may be to not conform to society. Although these can be labeled as "quests," growing up and starting adulthood is inevitable. No one can escape this fact, even though Holden really tries hard to do so. Some may believe Holden is on no quest at all, maybe he is just simply lost. As mentioned earlier in the blog, characters with quests more often than not have mentors by their side. Luke Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi is a prime and popular example of this. By Salinger not clearly defining a mentor in this story, is he also saying there is not a clearly defined quest for Holden? Perhaps Salinger was in fact communicating that teens during this time were alone and helpless because there were not many mentor figures. Holden is extremely independent in the story, and I think this reflects what I mean. I believe if anyone could be a mentor in this book, it would be Phoebe. Although she is younger than Holden, she understands him better than anyone else in his life. She is able to guide him through the toughest times, just by him thinking about her or hearing her voice. I believe she gives Holden strength throughout the book, and she isn't in more than half the novel. Salinger may have made a 10 year-old girl a mentor in the story just to prove his point that adults during this time were phony and selfish. Holden never has anything good to say about his parents, so is this Salinger saying that adults are phony? Ultimately, I believe Salinger was trying to convey that growing up can be difficult, but all of us have someone to make it better.
ReplyDelete-Justin Bleisch
I agree with Justin Bleisch that Holden is on a quest to maintain his innocence. He even mentions to Phoebe in chapter 22 on page 191 that he feels that his calling is to "be the catcher in the rye," someone who saves young children from following to their doom. Holden not only wants to keep his youth but also preserve the innocence of the young (which is slightly ironic due to Holden's independence and subtle maturity he has from staying in the city alone). This may also be the cause of Holden's disdain for adults; they seem to lack a childlike purity because they have all grown up. And how can he look up to someone who embodies the opposite of what he wants to preserve in himself and others?
ReplyDeletePerhaps Holden does not have an adult mentor because he cannot turn to the adults in his life since they want him to grow up and start applying himself in school. However, I do agree with Justin Bleisch that Phoebe is very influential in her brother's life and could also be somewhat of a mentor to him. She is the one who questions Holden's path in life, leading him to talk about what it means to be "the catcher in the rye." She is also the last thing Holden describes before he alludes to going back home and ending up in an institution. Phoebe is someone Holden admires; she is wise, young, and not at all a phony. I do not think that Salinger is saying adults are phony, but rather, one can find solace in peers or even those younger than us. I think Salinger is trying to convey that we should not discredit someone's knowledge or wisdom because of their age.
After reading the prompt I would have never thought of Phoebe as a proper mentor to Holden, but after reading my classmates’ entries I can agree with it. Phoebe is the sort of conscience that Holden lacks; his rational connection to reality. She has a certain effect on Holden. She’s incredibly bright and innocent, everything that Holden holds to be true and good. Maybe what Salinger is trying to tell reader is that mentors don’t always look like 90 year old men with beards. That maybe the wise don’t always look like the Obi-Wan Kenobi’s or the Gandalf’s in the movies. Little girls can be mentors, too. Little girls can have an influence, too. Noelle is certainly right about how Holden can’t look up to someone, in particular adults, he distrusts. He sees purity and reason with Phoebe.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think Salinger is telling 20th century youth that life is bleak and the only person you can really count on is yourself. No, Salinger hopes for youth to look within themselves and find that the support one needs may be in someone very unlikely. That despite the feeling of loneliness and alienation, there is hope. There’s always something you believe in to get you through the toughest of times. Phoebe is the light that brings Holden home after a long and troublesome journey. There is power in the love that binds Holden and Phoebe. It’s a pure and innocent love. Throughout Holden’s journey, he encounters people that try to direct him or that he seeks direction from but none of them are of help to him. Phoebe is able to reach out to Holden like no other person could, and it’s in the end that Holden is able to get a grip on reality thanks to his sister.
-Abegail Caraulia
I admire teh comment that Noelle had to say because that moment when Holden quoted he wanted to become the catcher in the rye struck me. I mean I now understand why it is called The Catcher In the Rye, but also Holden dreams of that job not only to save children from falling over a cliff. Maybe that idea could have been a metaphor of Holden trying to catch the sense of innocence before it falls over and disappears for eternity. Not only that, but Holden underlies this dream to catch innocence because, as Noelle articulated, since adults seem to let go of that childlike innocence, then Holden does not want to be an adult. So although we view this book with the theme of teenage rebellion, we have not really inferred what Holden is rebelling against. What I think is that since there is a shortage of mentors in Holden's life, then he is perhaps aiming for the goal to not grow up as one of those "phonies". So we do watch the rebellious, cynical side of Holden unfold throughout the book, but it is probably due to the reason of rebelling against the idea of growing up and losing our innocence. Maybe that is why Holden plots up a plan to move to the West and, as he claims: "...get a job at a filling station somewhere, putting gas and oil in people's cars...I thought what I do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.That way I wouldn't have to have any goddam stupid useless conversations with anybody" ( chapter 24 page 257). Holden believes that is his journey for life, which seems unfortunate because he has no pure guidance to show him what he can do in life.
ReplyDelete-Brandon Sanchez
The mentor in the Catcher in the Rye is Holden's younger sister, Phoebe as she knows that life is hard and she has the psychological connection to show him these harsh realities. In post #5, we discussed the symbol of Holden's red hunting hat. He favors orienting his hat backwards resembling that of a baseball catcher. He confides in Phoebe that his dream is to catch children from falling off the cliff into adulthood. Later in the book, it begins to rain as Phoebe is riding the carousel. She walks over to Holden and takes the baseball cap out of his pocket and places it on his head facing forward. Perhaps this is Phoebe's way of telling Holden that his dream of being a catcher is impossible as growing up is inevitable? It seems as though Holden does not have a mentor encouraging him to follows his dreams as they are truly impossible, but that Phoebe is the force that may bring him back to reality.
ReplyDelete-Sarah Schumacher
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DeleteUltimately, Holden’s quest is to keep his innocence and prolong entering adulthood. This theme of not growing up became most evident to me when Holden explains himself becoming the catcher in the rye. On page 224 and 225, he discusses with Phoebe that instead of becoming a lawyer like his father, he would like “to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff – I mean if they’re running and they don’t look where they’re going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them… I know it’s crazy but that’s the only thing I’d really like to be”. By this insane thought in his head, Holden is revealing that this symbolic catch of children is saving them from the changes – and maybe conflicts – that adulthood will bring. In addition, he includes that nobody big, except himself, would be around.
DeleteIn my opinion, Holden doesn’t have the opportunity to a mentor because it was due to the time period he lived in. During the mid-20th century, I believe teenagers were extremely independent. It is most apparent when readers see how easy it is for Holden to manage two nights in New York all by himself. Maybe it’s just generations before mine, but teens were urged to leave the house at the age of 18 and pursue adulthood. I know my grandmother left the house before 18 and pursued her career of nursing. However, Holden on the contrast side, had no guidance from his parents, considering he was always at boarding schools with no contact with them.
I agree with my peers when stating that Phoebe and Allie were some sort of mentors to Holden. There were many cases in which Holden admires them and looks up to them when he explains that they are very intelligent children. I completely agree with Sarah that when Phoebe places the hat facing forward on Holden’s head she is urging him to let go of his youth and that it is time for adulthood to come. In this scene, readers see Phoebe, a child, is guiding Holden in the right direction.
-Jocelynn Padilla
I agree completely that Holden's little sister phoebe is his so called mentor. Even though phoebe is not physically there for Holden throughout his crazy journey through New York she is there mentally. In the book Holden describes Pheobe as an extremely wonderful person in which he pretty much admire, his admiration of her is what I believe drives him to avoid even more mistakes (even though he makes a lot of them). In the end of the book when she gives the famous ref cap back to Holden it's almost as if she is saying good job or it was a bit of a reality check for Holden realizing that he needs to change real quick because his youth is dying.
Delete- Carlos Ceceña
I believe the journey Holden is on is trying to reconcile the inevitability of having to shed one's innocence with his own coming of age. In the process, he finds out that he cannot protect children from the impurities that naturally are a part of growing up.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the idea of Phoebe being a mentor for Holden. Even though she asks him questions concerning his future, like on pages 220-23, he doesn't disregard them like he did with Mr. Spencer in the beginning of the novel because he thinks children are more genuine than adults. I also think he finds guidance with Phoebe because he feels that adults don't care what children think. On page 224, Holden says, "I'm not too sure old Phoebe knew that the hell I was talking about. I mean she is only a little child and all. But she was listening at least. If somebody at least listens, then it's not to bad." To me, this shows that Holden can't trust adults with his thoughts. It also shows that Holden is more comfortable confiding in people younger than him. Like others have mentioned, I also think Salinger is saying that guidance can come from those younger than you as well as those who are older.
I also think that Holden looks up to Mr. Antolini, due to the incident of James Castle's suicide and the conversation they have. Although Mr. Antolini is an adult, Holden holds him in high regard because his ex-teacher "didn't even give a damn if his coat got all bloody" (227) from putting it on James Castle's body. Even if Holden was falling asleep for the majority of their conversation in chapter 23, what Mr. Antolini said really resonated with me. As the novel is coming to a close, we are met with a conversation between Holden and a teacher, much like we encountered in the beginning of the novel. In this case, however, the teacher is encouraging Holden to pursue and take education seriously because it will "give [him] an idea of what size mind [he] has" (247). I think Mr. Antolini is saying that education, rather than solely breeding conformity, can help Holden find who he is as an individual. This is significant because Holden loathes education, viewing it as an institution for teaching phoniness. When it comes to the end of the novel and whether or not Holden will apply himself in school, there is still no clear answer. However, because of this conversation, I believe he will.
- Amy Lopez
At different points during the novel Holden makes his way through the city on a journey perhaps trying to find stability in a chaotic world as he struggles with his own transition into adulthood and the way that others transition. in this way i feel that the city itself is a mentor to Holden showing his examples of innocence and the complex complicated world of adults and how far removed it is from the pure childhood innocence. In reference to his younger sister Phoebe i feel she plays more of a conscience character rather than a mentor during the his interactions with her he is able to speak to her honestly and frankly without any of the facades and barriers emotional or otherwise he places around himself during his interactions with others such as his peers as well as other adults. Phoebe at multiple points such as when discussing his dream of being the "Catcher in the rye" and phoebe brings Holden back to reality by telling him his dream is impossible and is partly also a symbol for the eventual and almost depressing acknowledgement that everyone in fact does have to grow up eventually despite how Holden feels.
ReplyDeleteBy definition a mentor is an advisor, in which one goes to seek advise on a basis. However, Holden mostly spoke about Phoebe with Holden's past, no interaction--not at least till the end of the book. I'm in full agreement with Victor's thoughts in deciding that Phoebe plays more of a conscious character rather than a mentor. As we all know, Holden feels as the only way to feel better is to escape reality and enter the fictional world. We've seen this many time the piggy the novel, such as when Holden would pretend to be shot in the gut after Holden got beat up by Stradlater or the "pimp" in the elevator. Holden mentions many times towards the end of the book of how he will escape to the mid-west and make a cabin there to escape reality. Yet, Phoebe is the character that eventually makes him stay. I also saw this happen when Holden wanted to escape with Sally. Once again, we see another character bring Holden back to reality.
ReplyDelete-Jose (Tony) Delgado
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ReplyDeleteAfter going through my peers' entries, I have to agree with Victor Naranjo in that Phoebe was not really a mentor to Holden but more so a character that kept him grounded and on the right track. Phoebe's role in the book and in Holden's life is significant in that it is unique for one to look to someone younger for guidance and advice in life. It is apparent throughout the book that Holden hardly confides in his parents or other adults because he views most of them as "phonies". Many of my peers have noted that this is because Holden fears adulthood and does not want to follow in their path, and I completely agree with this. With that being said, the lack of Holden having a mentor is probably Salinger's way of communicating that there will not always be someone to depend on or to follow someone in their footsteps; there will be times when we will have to face the world and the problems it brings to us alone, much like how Holden experiences this on his journey alone in New York.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, Phoebe is one of few, if not the only, family members that Holden gets along with and actually confides in. With this in mind, I think Salinger is creating a message to the audience that you can turn to your family and siblings in times of need. In addition, Salinger is trying to point out that age is just a number, and like in Phoebe's case, the young are just as educated, if not more, than adults.
-Catalina Isip
I agree entirely with most of my peers above. Throughout the novel, Holden has been on a quest in search of his identity. He does not know who he is and is unsure of his future after being expelled from Pencey Prep. In addition, he starts to become curious about his sexuality. I definitely see eye to eye with Victor Naranjo and Catalina Isip. Phoebe was not exactly a mentor, although aids in Holden's search for a sense of belonging and grasp the nature of society. She is greatly concerned about his well being and attempts to talk her brother out of his impetuous decisions. She seems to be the only character in the book who can see eye to eye with Holden. She brings out a softer and warmer side of her brother, which is slightly unusual given his attitude towards the majority of the people around him.
DeleteMy peers stated this very well that Holden's journey was too preserve his innocence and not become phony. In chapter 23 he reveals his life goal of becoming the Catcher in the Rye, "Anyway, I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids, and nobody's around--nobody big, I mean--except me. And I'm standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff--I mean if they're running and they don't look where they're going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That's all I'd do all day. I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all. I know it's crazy, but that's the only thing I'd really like to be. I know it's crazy". He feels it's his duty to prevent other youthful lives from phoniness and losing their innocence. This cliff represents the loss of innocence but Holden can't completely prevent this envitable fall because most kids have already been exposed to the harshness and corruption of human society. In his mind being the catcher in the rye could keep everyone pure like they were meant to be. In a way it could prevent them from depression and loneliness, just like him. He went through many struggles but I think he ultimately reached his goal.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the novel, Holden has gone to many adults however he does not necessarily get help from them he more than anything listens to whatever they have to say about him. I believe he does not have an adult mentor because he does not want to hear anything they have to say about him poorly because then he might feel as if he has to change something about himself to make his mentor happy with him. Also, Holden believes he is different from the rest of the world. Holden is also distant towards adults because adults hold the title of being very responsible since they are grown up, and he probably believes he cannot put his trust in someone that believes in something different than he does because they might judge him. Towards the end of the novel however he does confide in his sister phoebe who has a lot to say to him about his life and opens his eyes on his actions, when she says "you don't like anything that's happening" this makes it known that he doesn't like change and does not want to grow up. He also confides in his former English teacher, Mr. Antolini, for help and somewhere to stay, I believe he confides in Mr. Antolini because he views this as his last straw in order to save himself. However, he views Mr. Antolinis actions as sexual and therefore no longer trusts him. Holden does not really have any adult mentors because he believes a lot of these people are phony, and he does not like to deal with change or criticism because it makes him more confused than anything.
ReplyDelete-Briana Rios
I agree with my peers in that Holden's journey is to preserve his innocence, and that when he tells Pheobe that he wants to be A catcher in the rye and save young childern, it proves that he views this childlike innocence as an importance in his life, and is why he struggles to really confide in adults as mentors. When he tells his sister this it shows that he wants to help these children not fall into this black hole created by society. Holden believes all adults in society are phonies and he feels as though if he can save these children they too can keep their innocence, but I do also agree with the irony that comes alone with it because Holden too is in a way loosing his innocence because of how in some cases to tries to act mature or adult like. I believe that maybe Holden thinks that is he can help kids persevere their innocence in a way it can help him preserve his.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with my peers in that Pheobe was not so much a mentor for Holden but more so someone to kind of keep him close to his roots. She was one person that really understood Holden and he listened to her Inlike all the others. His love for his sister is evident and wanted nothing but to make her happy, which was way she was able to keep Holden grounded. She was one that still has that innocence that he so desperately craves.
-Yvette Macias
I find it interesting that we would consider Holden a “hero” at this point in the book, since he has been consistent with his pessimistic attitude and has not really “saved” or “rescued” anything yet. Anyways, it is important to contemplate, what is Holden’s quest? What is he trying to accomplish? Where is hoping to end up?
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden is on a mission, but I don’t think his intent is very clear. It appears that he is avoiding this coming of age, yet he faults many times with his evident attraction to alcohol and cigarettes. Many claim he is trying to protect his innocence, but I think it is larger than that. I conjecture that Holden is avoiding a maturity that his peers and elders are attempting to instill within him. His history teacher tries to tell him this, but then ends up making a mess of it. Phoebe also tries to convince him that he needs to grow up, but then is interrupted by their parent’s sudden appearance. J.D. Salinger is emphasizing this concept that our protagonist is, in a way, trying to do the impossible.
All this talk of this journey makes me wonder? What does it mean for us, as a reader? I hypothesize that Holden’s path is teaching us that, no matter your mission or goal, you need to keep trying. Defy the odds. Never give up. Holden is faced with tough obstacles (ex. Adults, other friends, his education, etc.), yet he is trying to prevail. His negative mood does not help his case, but it is also keeping him sane, rather than him lashing out. Holden is a quite unique character, and gives the novel a one-of-a-kind feel.
-Tanner Claudio
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ReplyDeleteLike my peers, I believe that the absence of a mentor was caused by Holden's pessimistic and critical perspective on adults. It is clear that he thinks adults are “phonies” and perhaps its because they lack that childhood innocence. In chapter 22, Holden is questioned by his little sister Phoebe on his aspirations for his future and he is unable to formulate an answer. When Phoebe suggests being a lawyer to him, Holden juxtaposes their stereotype of saving innocent lives to their “true” image of lawyers hardly saving lives except if they benefited from them. I believe that in this comparison Holden reveals the perspective he has on adults that only act out of self interest. Since throughout the novel he has shown a desire to hold on to his childhood innocence, we can infer that the innocent life that needs to be saved is himself. However, when he criticizes the lawyers, we can see that he believes that adults are often selfish and do not care about truly helping someone. I believe that his perspective on adults becoming “phonies” once they stabilize their careers, is the factor on why he lacks an adult mentor throughout most of the novel.
ReplyDelete-Jazzlyn Aviles
Like my peers, I believe that the absence of a mentor was caused by Holden's pessimistic and critical perspective on adults. It is clear that he thinks adults are “phonies” and perhaps its because they lack that childhood innocence. In chapter 22, Holden is questioned by his little sister Phoebe on his aspirations for his future and he is unable to formulate an answer. When Phoebe suggests being a lawyer to him, Holden juxtaposes their stereotype of saving innocent lives to their “true” image of lawyers hardly saving lives except if they benefited from them. I believe that in this comparison Holden reveals the perspective he has on adults that only act out of self interest. Since throughout the novel he has shown a desire to hold on to his childhood innocence, we can infer that the innocent life that needs to be saved is himself. However, when he criticizes the lawyers, we can see that he believes that adults are often selfish and do not care about truly helping someone. I believe that his perspective on adults becoming “phonies” once they stabilize their careers, is the factor on why he lacks an adult mentor throughout most of the novel.
ReplyDelete-Jazzlyn Aviles
I thought that the mentor in thus book was Holden's younger sister Phoebe. Similar to what Sarah said earlier, she always seems to understand him psychologically. He refers to her in most situations. Her opinions seem to be the only ones our narrator ever agrees with or does not criticize. Although she is not consistently present throughout the book, he does mention many conversations he had with her in the past, and how she understands everything. He also makes a point of wanting to runt things by her, or to call her randomly just because. He truly looks up to her in some ways, even though she is younger. At first, before we really met her, I thought she may also possess some mental issues because of how much Holden approves of her. But when we met her when Holden snuck into his home that night, I could clearly see that she has much more sense in her that Holden does. she clearly points out that he dislikes everything, and that he shouldn't be getting kicked out of so many schools.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with the comments above about Holden wanting to be the catcher in the rye so he could save children before they fall into the horrors of the real world. However, I disagree with the specific use of the word 'innocence'. I did not see Holden as innocent throughout this book at all. Rather, I saw him s a rebellious teenager who does not approve of the society he lives in, and wishes to find his own way in this world to be happy and "sane". What does innocence mean in this case, anyway? Holden drinks, he smokes, he is rude to people, and at one point he even wants to use a woman for his own pleasure. So then what exactly makes him innocent? The fact that he is not a phony? Or that he stays away from being rich white kid who goes to prep schools? I am not entirely sure what makes him innocent, but I am sure that he possibly wants to save the children from the retardation of society. He also wants to save himself. He wants to just figure out his own pathway.
I agree with your opinion on Holden not being innocent. As you mentioned, there's an overwhelming amount of evidence againt the idea that Holden is completely innocent. Being cynical is not often synonymous with innocence. However, Holden's struggles in The Catcher in the Rye come from him trying to reconcile his his impending adulthood and the childhood he must leave behind. As you said, he hires a prostitute with the intent of having sex with her. But he is reluctant to do so when the time comes, asking, "... do you mind very much if we don't do it?" (page 125). I think what makes Holden at least slightly innocent, but very naive, is that he thinks he can prolong his entry into adulthood, and those of other children. I think he wants to save them from the confusing threshold to adulthood that is adolescence, where Holden himself feels trapped in.
DeleteI agree with both Negeen and Amy in that Holden is not innocent. However it is this lack of innocence which haunts Holden throughout this novel. He is growing up, and is no longer oblivious to all the hurt in the world, no longer believing in only the good. He is aware of all the evil and sorrow in the world, having experienced horrible things such as Allie's death. He also drinks, smokes, and goes to bars in attempt to socialize with women, all actions which would not be labeled innocent. Holden is on a quest to attempt to preserve his innocence, therefore preventing him from growing up. He is on the precipice of adulthood, and will soon be forced to adopt the responsibility that come with being an adult.
DeleteHolden's rapidly fading innocence has resulted in his slight obsession with the idea of innocence. He covets his little sister Phoebe, is mesmerized by Jane, and always talks to the children he encounters while wandering around New York. All of these characters are innocent, something that Holden longs to be. This is why Holden envisions himself as the catcher in the rye. He can protect the children from the rest of the world, from all the bad things which can corrupt their innocence. He can protect them from becoming like him, confused and scared by entirely losing their innocence and becoming an adult.
-Liliana Conradi
For a majority of the novel Holden spends his time roaming the streets and bars of New York City attempting to search for his true self. Like Hector states, Holden is struggling with finding companions who meet his tremendously high standards and accepting his transition to manhood. I believe that Holden never really had a mentor throughout the novel, mainly due to the fact that he harshly judged and expects a lot out of those who he meets. Simply, he seemed to despise most of the adults that he knew and met. Like many others have said, Phoebe did not really serve as a mentor because she never advised Holden’s actions throughout a large part of the novel. However, I would agree that Phoebe did play a large role in guiding/directing Holden’s actions later on in the novel. Lastly, I believe that having Holden not have a mentor can represent the new generation, the generation where many of the individuals are independent. I can see this in present-day frequently. Often, teenagers want to get out of their parent’s house, get a job, and relocate to a new area to prove to their parents that they can make it. However, like Holden, they tend to struggle and possibly end up coming back, searching for advice or aid.
ReplyDelete-Jassin Reyes
I agree with previous posts that Holden is on a quest to maintain his innocence and to not conform to society. I agree that his lack of a mentor is due to his pessimistic view of adults and his thoughts that they are all "phony." However, I also think it is meant to symbolize that although Holden is trying to escape from adulthood, growing up is inevitable and often means finding oneself without someone telling them what to do. I agree with Jassin that many teenagers nowadays try to be independent and that independence often times symbolizes adulthood for them. Holden's lack of a mentor during this process shows the difficulty that most teenagers go through and although most teenagers have parents to guide them, which Holden does not, they still tend to drift from their parents' instructions and try to go through this journey on their own. Also, I think Holden's lack of a mentor, because he believes all adults are "phony," foreshadows his future and tells the reader that he will continue to be different from others in society rather than becoming phony when he turns into an adult.
ReplyDelete-Megan Vu
A few of my peers have mentioned how Phoebe, Holden’s little sister, is acting like his mentor. I somehow agree with this statement, however, I believe that she acts more to keep him rooted than to mentor him. Also, as Megan and a few of my other peers have stated, I do believe that Holden is on a journey to preserve his innocence. In chapter 22, Holden explains to Phoebe how he keeps “‘picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all’’ (Chapter 22, page 224). When asked about his future career, Holden reveals that he does not want to become a lawyer like his father, rather he wishes to be someone who will be able to work with children. Holden’s fantasy reveals his longing to preserve childhood innocence. As seen from his reunification with his little sister Phoebe, Holden seems to miss the simpler times when their brother Allie was still alive, as well as their brother J.D still home. Therefore, this is why I believe that Phoebe is the one to keep him rooted and real. She is also the one who acts mature because she gives him her Christmas money so that he will be able to survive until the beginning of Christmas break on Wednesday.
ReplyDeleteI feel as though Salinger intentionally does not include a mentor for Holden. I believe he does this in order to maybe more accurately depict the era of teenagerhood and how sometimes there is no mentor and you feel as if you have to handle the world all by yourself. This lack of a mentor is trying to re-emphasize the emotions of isolation and not having anyone to turn to. Holden’s character is unique to any novel have ever read. His character seems the most real because he can see through the lies that society has created. Due to this, I have found a slight liking to the character.
-Vinnie Widjaja
I also agree that Phoebe is like Holden's mentor, although she is his little sister she seems to always try to make Holden go in the right path. Phoebe is trying to make Holden understand that his crazy decisions may not work such as going to Colorado and live in a ranch where he doesn't even know how to ride horses according to Phoebe. Even though Phoebe does not appear as much throughout the novel Holden seems to always mention her. He says she is very smart, the smartest of all of them and really pretty.
ReplyDeleteI also agree that Holden's journey is to preserve his innocence. He doesn't seem to want to grow up and leave his childhood. He doesn't want to be a lawyer like his father or scientist or be like any of those "phonies" but instead wants to work with children. Holden wants to help children keep their innocence as he says to Phoebe on page 225 " I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all. I know it's crazy, but that's the only thing I'd really like to be." I think Salinger did not necessarily assign Holden a mentor as a way to show how many teenagers during this time did not have much support. Holden did not seem to have much support from his parents and had only a little from his professor at Pencey Prep. Salinger may have wanted to show how hard teenagers had it at this time with no one to mentor them and guide them through life.
Throughout his entire journey Holden for the most part is on his own no mentor, no true friends ,and no family. I would have to agree with my peer that the closest person Holden has as a mentor is his sister, Phoebe. Towards the end when Holden pays a visit to his old teacher at Elkton Hills, Mr Antolini gives Holden some advice which gave me the belief that perhaps this was Holden's mentor until the awkward and strange incident that happens, then that right there was the end of it. However, back in the day teens were always out adventuring on their won or with friends, the times where different and not as much violence in the streets compared to our modern days where you cannot leave anyone alone. I do agree with Mr. Rodriguez that it is a shame that Holden does not have that mentor figure and maybe if he did he would not have struggled so much with growing up because well he did not even have his own father to go to for guidance. Out of all people Phoebe seemed to be the only one who could bring Holden back down to earth and have hiss full attention. Phoebe would say some profound things that would have Holden think twice about; Phoebe was the only one who Holden would listen and keep himself from going out West. If Phoebe was the only person to do this to Holden then I do agree that she was the closest mentor Holden ever had.
ReplyDelete-Mariana Velasco
I agree with your thoughts on why Holden has no mentor. I think he has no mentors because that is how it is in life, from what I've learned about adult life from my parents and other adults I've discussed this kind of thing with, once you're on your own, you're supposed to have no need for a mentor, you SHOULD know how to guide yourself through life. I personally believe that Holden was so wrapped up in his own life that he didn't pay any attention to the people who could've been his mentors, this still unfortunately happens to people today.
ReplyDelete-Morgan Buell
I believe what Salinger is trying to say is that the best mentor one could have is to be their own. The characters who try to embed him with ideas provide considerations which he decides to discard. It may also mean that people should not strive to meet ideals but rather live the way that pleases them. In a way, this accepts what is perceived as the rebelliousness reprimanded by the traditionalists at the time the novel is made. Furthermore, being mentored means their expected to do things they are advised to do. It would be out of character for Holden to do things that was planned. Even in the last page he asks "How do you know what you're going to do till you do it?"
ReplyDeleteI think that Holden's mentor was his little sister Phoebe. It is evident by Salinger that because most of the adults were phony and were interested in more materialistic things, many of the youth were lonely. Even though adults like Mr. Antolini and Mr. Spencer tried to guide Holden into the right direction, because they were adults they were not able to motivate Holden.
ReplyDeleteBut his little sister, Phoebe, was really the only one who had an impact on Holden. Holden seems to realize this too and that is why he has a such a great desire to visit her and talk to her. Even though she is only 10 years old, she tells Holden that life is hard and growing up is inevitable and happens to everyone even if Holden doesn't want it too. When she asks Holden to mention one thing he likes, he realizes he can't really think of anything. Also when he decides to leave and goes to say goodbye to Phoebe, she makes him stay. Phoebe acts like his mentor and only support in the novel.
Phoebe and Mr. Atnolini discussed similar things but because of Holden's ideals about adults, he would be out of character to listen to him. But because Phoebe is a child he realized that he did need to change. At the end of the book when he is asked if he will apply himself when he goes back to school he replies with "I think i am, but how do i know? I swear it's a stupid question." (P234) Although he seems to reject aspects of society still, he finally demonstrates hope for himself. And this is right after showing happiness when he was with Phoebe.
The more i read this book, the more I get this feeling of childhood innocence versus the adult world of lying and deceit. Maybe the reason doesn't have a mentor figure in his journey is because mentors are usually adults. Holden oftentimes shows his strong preference for the "child side" of the world, speaking fondly of his little sister, despising all the adult phonies, et cetera. In my opinion, this justifies Holden, not having a mentor. Holden might even actively avoid a mentor since they'd probably only teach him how to be a phony. The adult world is filled with phonies, accepting an adult as a mentor would drive Holden crazier than he already is.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it is best to have Holden without a mentor. In this conflict between childhood and adulthood, Holden sits right in the middle as a teenager. Maybe it's fitting that Holden, who seems to be fighting the transition, stands alone as a teenager. Maybe Holden just actually like being alone.
Holden is on a quest for something, but it is not as obvious as the ones presented to us in the examples of this post. Ulysses was on a journey to go back home, Luke Skywalker was on a journey to save the galaxy, but Holden was on a journey to find mental peace and stability. Holden was agitated by the comments of his peers, his teacher, and his situation and he was tired of it, which is why he went to New York, in order to escape his problems and find some form of mental peace. Sadly, his every attempt in reaching this peace seemed to fail by seeming to only cause him even more depression. He started to call and meet up with almost everybody he knew was in New York, and they all gave him some sort of advice or lesson, but no one was able to guide him to that peace that he so long desired. Holden had many mentors, but none of them were the mentor that Holden needed at that moment, no matter how much he searched, Holden could not find a suitable mentor. Salinger seems to be telling the reader that teenagers have many places and people to get advice from, but none of them will be able to teach them what they need to learn and understand for themselves.
ReplyDelete-Cynthia Rosas
In the novel the Catcher in the Rye the main character is in a journey to something. He doesn’t have some pattern in order to get to his goal; he was just someone that tried to escape his present to relieve his past. As it was mention in every book there is almost always this mentor or person that helps guide the main character to their right path in his life. As my peers where saying, Phoebe can be seen as mentor but in reality she is just another character in his journey. Phoebe is someone Holden trust and for her age she is very mature, I believe that Phoebe is just someone mature in the view of Holden because she is someone who is not afraid to say what she thinks and just as the kids she says what she needs to say and no more. Maybe what Salinger was trying to tell us was that sometimes we don’t need someone to remind us what is good or what is bad, we don’t need someone to show us how mad we have become, because most likely we don’t do anything about and would just ignore it. Some people need to make mistakes in order to notice that they are in a breaking point and start over again. Holden is just scared of growing up and that makes him depressed with a felling of not wanting to be a phony adult. I see Phoebe not as a mentor but as someone who Holden only listens because he wants to make something right for her.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI can see how it can be striking that Holden does not seem to have an clear mentor on his quest throughout New York, but this did not seem as surprising to me because of the way Holden acts and thinks, especially around others. Throughout the story Holden often expresses dislike for people that are older than him and appear to act as adults, such as those he describes from Pencey and the other prep schools, thus rendering them as phonies in Holden's eyes. I find it slightly ironic that Holden frequently tries to associate himself with others that are older than him, such as Luce or the prostitute Sunny. He certainly thinks and acts like he is much older than he really is, seeing as how he always attempts to order alcohol in bars and even called up a prostitute to his room. In his conversation with Sally, he does not seem to stop and consider their limitations on his plan of escaping at their age, and in his conversations with Luce and other older prep-school characters, he does not refrain himself and consider his authority on topics such as sex. So this makes me wonder- does Salinger mean for Holden to be someone else's mentor? or his own? Maybe Salinger did not intend for Holden to have a mentor, which would align with the theme of a generation of youth that is mentor-less.
ReplyDeleteI agree with my peers that Holden is on a quest to remain innocent. At first, I did not see what Holden's "quest" was because it didn't seem like he had any drive or motivation to do something in particular. I thought he was just a confused, alienated teenager that needed help on his journey through New York, and more importantly, in life. And that is partially true because Holden could definitely use a mentor to give him guidance and show him the path to happiness and success. I thought Mr. Spencer, Holden's history teacher at Pencey Prep, could talk some sense into Holden, since Holden seemed to somewhat like him in a way. However, Holden is too stubborn and impatient to listen to Mr. Spencer's advice. You could tell that Holden felt bad for Mr. Spencer, but he just couldn't stand talking to Mr. Spencer because he was so uncomfortable and agitated. After all, I don't think Mr. Spencer would make to best mentor given his health. Later in the novel, Holden meets Luce, an old classmate of his from Whooton School. Holden says that he finds Luce funny, but no more than a phony. Luce is only three years older than Holden, and even though he is a student at Columbia University, he doesn't qualify as a suitable mentor for Holden, and neither does Luce's father. Luce's father is a psychoanalyst, which makes him more of a therapist than a mentor.
ReplyDeleteThere is strong evidence which suggests that Salinger was trying to tell us that life as a teenager was going to be very lonely and filled with many moments of helplessness, because Holden is independent in a world filled with "phony" adults. He experiences terrible, but very real, situations in New York like his altercation with Maurice and the prostitute. In the end, I believe Salinger was trying to convey the struggles teenagers go through because they are caught in-between childhood and adulthood.
-Shalin Nirmal
It is a striking feature that in Holden's case, there is no one he can look up to for advice and mentoring, but I think that Salinger wanted the character to develop this way. As stated in previous posts, Holden is a staple character in America because he is the first modern teenager. The teenager of today(and of the time when this book was published), feels misunderstood and confused on what path of life they should follow. Within the turmoil of making such decisions, another problem arises; who should you exemplify for yourself? Perhaps another student, an adult, or one's parent? The fact that by the end of the novel Holden never really finds the right mentor for himself, shows Salinger's teen audience that at some points in life you will have to make decisions based on your own values and knowledge, rather than following the path that your peers have already commenced. There is not one way to do things, and Holden's lack of mentor proves the difficulties in understanding the concept of becoming an adult and making one's own choices.
ReplyDelete-Savannah Mojica
Holden, I agree, is a lost teenager in his society with absolutely no sign of guidance or aspiration to anyone he has met on his journey. I read the book Of Mice and Men and found a similarity between the two books in fact actually a crossing theme that I believe to be the downfall of the typical American Dream to live a happy, prosperous life in a free land.
ReplyDeleteWith stating that, Holden can be symbolized as the American Society and its downfall as he is enveloped with his own depression and mental state. It is quite a tragic main character to be depicted as lost and without guidance. Holden solemnly seeks to rid of his loneliness yet is habitual of creating a phony persona on the people he does meet. For example, when Holden meets up with Sally he begins getting excited and his mindset and the whole mood of the main protagonist changes but the exact second Sally rejects Holden's ideas he goes back to being his lost and misguided self. I've noticed moments like this occur throughout Holden's quest to quench his depression.
Throughout this book, Holden is lost of his sense of where he needs to go in life. The thing we can always notice is that Holden is constantly trying to find someone on the phone to talk to. FOr example, when he first gets off the train to New York, the first thing he does is go to the phone booth and think of who to call. He constantly revisits people he's known in the past like Sally, Jane, and Faith, almost as if he doesnt want to let go. By this, we can see that Holden truly embodies the feeling of loneliness. He's in a big city, with everyone around him changing, and he yearns for someone who can stay by him. Salinger, trhough Holden, I think is trying to make the statement that 20th century teens not only dont have any mentors to turn to, but rather dont have anyone to turn to. Holden has no one he can truly sit down with and talk to without a mocking attitude. Furthermore, Holden always thinks about his brother, Allie. Hes always revisitng the past, because he doesnt know where he can go in the present. This is coupled with his desire to escape his current situation, as seen when he proposed the idea to move to move Massachusetts to Sally. He doesnt know where to go to resolve his situation, truly a sad thing. I think Salinger is trying to show how teens in the 20th century felt and how America's environment really wasnt helping teens at all.
ReplyDeleteI also want to mention that the closet thing Holden has to a mentor in this story is Phoebe. We see how much Holden talks about Phoebe, and hwo much he wants to see her. Lost in NYC, the only real person he can turn to in the end. When he manages get home, he is estatic to see Phoebe. Through their conversation, Phoebe seems to be the only one who truly understands Holden. For example, when Holden complains about his life, Phoebe automatcially states the truth "You don't like anything that's happening." Holden after hearing this, becomes even more depressed, because he knows it true. I think this is the best exam[ple of how Phoebe acts like a pseudo-mentor to Holden. She states exaclty how he's feeling, and she questions Holden very good, despite being younger than him, she makes him realize truths about himself. She also idenfities his flaws real well, like how hes always talking about Allie, even though Allie's been dead. A final example of how Phoebe acts as a mentor is when she comforts Holden when he cries after receiving her money. I think Salinger shows that teens don't have any adult mentors to turn to anymore, forcing teens to turn to younger people for comfort. He really is trying to highlight a generation of lost teens who are desperate for someone to relate their problems too.
ReplyDeleteHolden’s quest in the novel is to maintain his innocence just like when he was a child and to not be corrupted by adulthood. Although he is roaming through New York, smoking cigarettes, and sleeping at hotels where he called up a prostitute, however, he is most likely true to his childhood roots due to the way he disdains adults. He judges women on
ReplyDeletetheir appearances and when he is looking for a conversation with them, he tries to set up a an intellectual topic, which ends up as a failure and a disappointment to him. Also I believe that Holden wants to stay away from growing up because he always thinks about Jane and Allie, which was a part of his life when he was younger. Jane signifies as the
only person who holds the same innocence as Holden, which leads to Holden being petrified when he found out that she went out with Stradlater in the beginning of the novel.
In my opinion, the only appropriate mentor for Holden is Phoebe even if she is younger than him. Phoebe is the only family member that Holden has and who truly understands him. Holden has his struggles and Phoebe is there for him till the end. Phoebe is the only person out there who says what is on her mine without sugarcoating certain topics and
that what Holden likes.
-Mikayla Abille
It is clear there is a journey taking place in this novel. Though the end of the journey is very unclear or tends to shift throughoutthe novel which I find frustrating. We understand in the beginning that he ends up in a mental hospital, but throughout the narrative the narrator makes it seem that a mental hospital would be the last place Holden would end up. He makes decisions as to run away North with Sally Hayes, or he decides to hitch hike West on his own and make a living there. Then finally he decides to end up going home through being with Phoebe. Which where I can agree with my peers that Phoebe is filling the mentor roll in this jounrey. Though it is not a clear roll, it is implied as Holden always speaks highly of Phoebe and in the times he interacts with her she always helps him and leads him to the right path indirectly. For example by throwing her tantrum at the end of the novel, she was able to make Holden not run away and stay with her and his family. no other character had this influence on him. So though it is not clearly stated or evident, I believe Phoebe in the mentor in this journey and J.D. Salinger has made a good move by making the mentor younger than the protagonist rather than following the common cliche of the mentor being old.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden’s journey throughout the novel without a mentor represents today’s society with teens because life as a teenager is the beginning of independence. Holden doesn’t have a mentor because a mentor would be an adult, and he finds adults corrupt and “phonies.” I agree with Quentin that Salinger was trying to perceive the true image of the cruel mid-nineteenth century for a teenager instead of a “phony” image of how easy it was. In my opinion, Holden didn’t need a mentor, he had his personal motivation which drove him through his journey. He always had his siblings, Allie and Phoebe, in mind. This is where the theme comes in, preserving innocence. For example, Holden says “I keep picturing all these kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all…And I’m standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff… I know it’s crazy, but that’s the only thing I’d really like to be” (191). Holden hates the phony world of adults, he would do anything to keep Phoebe and any other kid out of that corruption. Holden pursues his journey all by himself with his motivation in his mind. For example, when he felt lonely and depressed, all he did was think of his siblings and he got through it. I believe that Salinger was trying to tell us that life in the mid 20th century for that generation of youth, and future generations, meant not having access to a mentor—that we were on our own because it showed the progressive changes throughout the years between the transitions from adolescence to an adult. Going through that transition, you would have to overcome obstacles along the way, such as loneliness and the feeling of helplessness.
ReplyDelete-Paola Priela
Throughout the course of the book there were two people that tried to guide Holden, his history teacher, Mr. Spencer and past English teacher, Mr. Antolini. While these teachers were talking, Holden found himself only saying what they wanted to hear, but he didn’t really appreciate what they were trying to tell him. While reading, I believed that a major climax was to happen and I did not expect to read a large portion of Holden aimlessly wandering around New York constantly depressed and at times drunk. He is helpless and has never been taught how to live. I was also wondering why the school did not notify Holden’s parents of his premature departure. It supports Holden’s belief that the school is phony and does not regard Holden’s safety important. They are definitely not his mentors and no mentor talked to Holden on a personal level. Instead, they told him to change his attitude and do what society demands. Holden is particularly vulnerable at this age and made insane decisions without anyone to correct him.
ReplyDeleteI feel like Holden's quest through out this novel is to not be a rebellious teen but to keep his childhood alive, and the only way to do that is to run around NYC and avoid anything that would dare make him grow up. That being said, I completely agree with my peer Sarah, that Phoebe is Holden's mentor/ role model. Holden is constantly stating not through out the story how he wishes the reader could meet phoebe , and how amazed we would be with her. It's amazing how much he admires Phoebe. The red hat symbolizes so much, especially Holden's inner child and i agree with Sarah that when Phoebe turns his hat the right way, it's her way of telling Holden that it's time to grow up.
ReplyDeleteHim not having any true adult mentors is due to his dream to be the "catcher in the rye" to stay young and innocent forever. He is living in a fantasy where he's hiding from responsibility, and it's time that he gets the physiological help he needs to grow up.
-Breana Barnes
Throughout the novel I feel that Holden is definitely on a quest to escape his reality. From different scenarios throughout the book we can see that almost everyone Holden comes into contact with is a "phony". However it stood out to me that the only people he didn't find as a "phony" was his little sister phoebe, his younger brother Allie who passed away, Jane Gallagher, and the two nuns he met at the train station. I think he didn't consider them phonies because for one his younger brother and sister still had their innocence and were still "pure" to him. He doesn't see Jane as a "phony" because she was apart of his childhood a part that we can see he really holds on too and wishes to see her again, and the nuns were genuinely nice and maybe too he didn't see them that way because he knew they were very religious. However with that being said, through his journey in New York when getting kicked out of Pencey Prep he lacks to find a suitable mentor. Although he encountered his old English teacher he finds to come off as a pervert right away and decides to leave. Like Holden most teenagers today find it hard to find a mentor for themselves, some believe that no one would ever understand them and they would better off alone and in this case I feel that Holden is one of those teenagers. However I do feel that Holden wishes he had a mentor he definitely goes through times of "depression" and "loneliness" that he mentions quite often. Like Breana mentioned about Holden wanting to become a "catcher in the rye", he wants to be able to keep his innocence forever and to help younger children also keep theirs as well. He doesn't want to accept change and the fact of growing up because he knows their comes lots of responsibility with that and I feel that's probably another reason he doesn't reach out to find a mentor because he knows his mentor would tell him its to grow up, to stop living in a fantasy, and to stop always trying to escape reality.
ReplyDelete- Kiyana Tejero
I concur with many of my peers that Holden is on a quest to salvage his innocence and youth. Due to the lack of a mentor relationship in his life, Holden does not want to grow up or embrace adulthood. He seems to cut himself off of anyone whom he feels is threatening his innocence for example his parents, Luce, and his History teacher at Pencey Prep. His feeling of hopelessness I believe is contributing to his negative attitude towards everything as well as his easy going attitude towards death. The only significant and stable relationship in Holden life is with his little sister Phoebe. His relationship with Phoebe I feel is the only innocence he can hold onto and is why he is able to have a good relationship with her. His journey through New York is definitely opening up his eyes to how the world really is and he's not ready to take it on and face responsibility.
ReplyDelete-Jasmine Simmons
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHolden, like many of us, is on a quest to find some kind of assurance in the future. In other words, he is attempting to discover his identity. During this age, the social norm is that a student knows their direction in life, maybe not exactly what they will do, but an idea based on their interests and beliefs. However, Holden seems to be different and is a teenager who is lost in his own thoughts, traveling through an abyss full of uncertainty. This is evident as Holden does not have any established goals or desires. In fact, his one true dream is to be a catcher in the rye (pages 224-225). I believe this dream to be more of a reference to where Holden stands in life- a teenager without a purpose in life who has not found his identity.
ReplyDeleteHowever, Holden gives hints to his interests by calling things phony or not. Despite these hints, Phoebe is the first person to reveal the truth to Holden as she declares, "'Because you don't. You don't like any schools. You don't like a million things. You don't'"(page 220). His contrasting attitude to the social norms is not helpful to his quest and the fact that he finds most of things as phony makes it hard for him to chose a path in life.
In my perspective, Salinger conveys that life will have moments of loneliness and helplessness but will be accompanied by minimal moments where one has the power to open up themselves and change. The person who I believe functioned the most as Holden's guide was Mr. Antolini. He seemed to have some common views with Holden and gave him the most apt piece of advice when saying, "The whole arrangement's designed for men who, at some time or other in their lives, were looking for something their own environment couldn't supply them with...So they give up looking. They gave it up before they ever really even got started"(page 243-244). Therefore, Holden has never made the effort to find who he truly is. Hence, his quest has not yet commenced as he has constantly avoided reality. It is my assumption that he then found out his true identity, but at the end of the book he reverted to his rebellious ways and did not convey any real signs of change,thus making me wonder if Holden changed or not.
-David Wilson
In this book, Holden does not have someone that he can fully trust and rely on. However, Mr. Spencer, his old teacher, played as a guide to him, and yet he did not accept his advice. I think that Holden does not want to take responsibility for his actions and therefore does not want to hear others lecture him about how he should change his life. I believe this is a component of why Holden did not tell his peer’s mother on the train who he really was. He lied instead and just wanted company because he felt so alone. Even though he grew up without any type of mentor, he could have easily continued it the same way and not care about anything else. What is interesting about him though is his complex perspective on life. He decides that he wants to be the catcher in the rye and save children from the real world, preserve their innocence. For me, this makes Holden a respectable character. Holden contains negative thoughts about pretty much everything. He holds few happy thoughts when thinking about his former neighbor, Jane, and his siblings. He mentions how Phoebe always understood and listened to him. She served as his rock. If Phoebe had not played such a significant role in the book and Holden’s life, I would say that he would not feel the same about saving purity among children.
ReplyDeleteHolden's quest throughout out the novel was him trying to discover a way to escape the hard truths of reality and retain any sort of innocence he has left inside himself. The main conflict to in his journey is that Holden's attitude and immaturity constantly throw him in situations in which he has to face the punishment of ignoring reality and deal with the consequences. Holden occasional drifts into his "movie reality" further shows his grip on his childhood innocence. The closet Holden has to an actual "adult" mentor is Mr. Antolini, having somewhat of a respectful view towards him, but still somewhat distrustful, especially when Holden believed that Mr. Antolini "attempted" to sexually advance towards Holden. As what my peers had mentioned before Holden's actual mentor would be his sister Phoebe. Mainly due to Phoebe being one of the very few people Holden respects and has high regards of but Phoebe's true purpose in Holden's life is her acting as Holden's emotional anchor. When she was devastated that Holden was kicked out of another school, Holden came to actually regret his actions as well as change his mind of going west when Phoebe wanted to go with. Her actions were able to make Holden realize his motives were only place him in even worse situations and finally made him stay in New York and somewhat convince him to give school another chance.
ReplyDelete-Daniel R. Diaz
Yes, I agree that Holden does not have a mentor figure in his life throughout the novel. Although Phoebe would be the closest person for a mentor, I do not really think that Holden looks up to Phoebe and wants to follow in her footsteps. Therefore, I think that this is done to symbolize the concept of individuality. Throughout the book, it seems that Holden did not have a stable relationship with anyone, he was becoming individual as a person. Even today, I think that it is rare for teenagers to have a mentor. Although in some cases, parents or teachers can serve as one’s mentors. The true meaning behind this, I believe, is that we have to find comfort within ourselves. In modern society, I think that it can be difficult to find a mentor. Overall, not having a mentor figure is just going to prepare teenagers for the real world. Most of the time, we are going to have to be lonely and helpless, I think we have to be accepting of that. As for Holden, I do not think that he wants a mentor figure due to his “too good for anyone” attitude.
ReplyDelete-Daniela Navarro
i think Salinger was doing just that: trying to demonstrate to us that mid 20th century teenagers (and on) did not want or require a mentor. i think at times we do need someone to set us in the right path and give us well rounded knowledge and advice, but as teenagers we don't really listen. Holden was definitely his own person. he didn't seem to take advice from anyone, especially not the adults. he wanted to do his own thing; drink at bars, drop out of high school, run away. maybe Salinger made him not have a mentor because indeed the adults were phony. I think Holden might have seen them as too experienced. they had already lived their life. they had been Holden's age and wanted to stop him from doing the same mistakes that they did. but Holden maybe wanted to make those mistakes and learn on his own. He was very independent.
ReplyDeletei also do feel Salinger was saying that life as a teenager in that time was going to be very lonely. this is evidence through Holden. he was all alone. he mad virtually no friends at Pencey, he traveled alone with little to no companionship, he wasn't close to his family. he was practically alone. he went through a series of times when he was helpless, like when he was running away at the end. he was leaving behind the person who cared about him most, and to whom he reciprocated those feelings to, his little sister. i feel like this was a moment of helplessness for him because he felt like he had to run away from his life and his problems, but he didn't actually see what he was leaving behind. this has happened to most of us at least once. we do things or leave things for reasons that aren't as big as they really are, and end up hurting, helpless, and lonely. Salinger through this was trying to tell us that we are our own mentors, and we get through life by making mistakes and realizing things through them like how Holden did.
Throughout this novel, it is apparent that Holden does not really have anyone in his life to mentor him. I do agree with my peers that Phoebe is seen to be as a mentor to Holden. I have noticed that he is willing to listen to her and make sure that he does everything to please her. He mentions his little sister throughout the book constantly and it seems that he tries to stay in the right path so his mistakes do not hurt Phoebe in the long run. He always talks highly about her and it is obvious that she has a special place in his heart. My peers also mentioned that Holden went on this journey to preserve his innocence, and I completely agree with them. I have noticed that Holden cuts off contact with individuals who seem to be a threat to him maintaing his innocence. For example, when Holden stopped off at Mr. Antolini’s house (an old teacher of his), he believes that he is flit (gay) because he started rubbing his hair before he went to sleep. Because of that, Holden immediately leaves the house to make sure that he keeps his innocence. Another example would have to be when he invited the prostitute into his hotel room. Instead of having sex with with her, he decides that he wants to simply have a conversation with her instead. When she refuses and tries to seduce, Holden ends up paying her and telling her to leave because, in a way, he would have been giving up his innocence.
ReplyDelete-Ayauna Cunningham
Throughout the novel, I found Holden searching for a companion, but not just any common companion. A particular companion of which would tolerate Holden’s particular mindset, as we have witnessed, tends to shatter friendships and instances. This was particularly evidenced during Holden’s date with Sally as he had introduced an irrational, irrelevant topic during their conversation, which ended up to Holden offending Sally and ending the date. This has given me insight on our protagonist as Holden evidently has a complicated, disrupted mindset. I have perceived the cause of this complexed mindset is to be Holden’s suffering of loneliness, as he longed and seeked a companion of which he could converse with. There were several instances of which Holden was looking for someone to spend time with, specifically someone to talk with who would understand his complexed ideals and understandings. This was his own personal quest, to ultimately find one who can tolerate his mindset whether they would comprehend his ideals or not. This is what I had concluded after finishing the novel.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with Mr. Rodriguez that Holden had lacked an ideal adviser to properly give him the advice he needs to cope with the physical and mental issues he face. I had found Holden to be constantly struggling with loneliness throughout the novel, as been stated. I strongly agree that Luce lacked the capability to be a worthy adviser for Holden. Luce also had his own sophisticated mindset that was more mature than our protagonist, which was clearly not relatable to Holden’s. Regardless of Holden’s comfortability to open up to Luce and ask particular questions, the responses of Luce lacked the proper knowledge that Holden was seeking to benefit from. The only beneficial advice provided by Luce was to simply see a psychoanalyst such as Luce’s father. This also develops my own hypothesis of Holden’s journey, he may have also been searching for a mentor to help him and give him the advice he needs.
Finally, I believe Salinger was pointing out to his readers that many of the youth in generations to come will become more independent. This is evident in society today as many of the teenagers believe that parents would not understand and relate to the issues that they face, but in reality they do. The adults have been on this Earth longer than the teenagers have been, deeming them to be more wise, knowledgeable, and experienced.
-Rendell Miguel
Throughout the novel, Holden travels through New York City alone, while trying to find his way out of his childhood, into adulthood. It is not clear in the story as to what Holden is trying to pursue, but different events in the novel have led me to come to the conclusion that Holden is truly searching for his adulthood. First of all, Holden is constantly making up lies so that he is able to do certain activities that an adult would usually be able to do. He tries so hard to be the age that he definitely is not. For example, when Maurice had offered Holden a prostitute for five dollars, Maurice asked him how old he was and Holden replied with “Twenty-two” (119). Often throughout the novel, Holden constantly orders/wants to order a jack and coke from the nightclub and the the bar. Due to this, Holden is, without a doubt, trying to be older than his actual age, but does not know how.
ReplyDeleteThrough the course of the novel, Holden lacks a suitable mentor who can set him straight and help him get out of this phase. In the novel, there were some adults in his life that truly care about him and have attempted to help him out, like Mr. Spencer and Mr. Antolini, for example. With all the advice that they had given him, Holden continued to be neglectful and inattentive as to what they had to say. Everything they said went through one ear, and out of the other. Holden never took their advice into account. He seems to push away the adults that have tried to aid him and make him realize that he needs to get himself together. Although he did not have an adult as a mentor, I believe that his little sister, Phoebe is his mentor. Whenever Holden speaks of Phoebe, they are all positive comments and stories. Ultimately, I think Phoebe is his mentor because she is the only person whom he has been able to tell things to, normally what you would tell to a mentor.
Not only is Phoebe his mentor, but I believe that Holden is his own mentor. In the novel, he is constantly by himself, walking through New York City alone. I think Salinger does this to let the audience recognize, that at times there will not be a mentor by your side and that we need to find different ways to get through things without having someone tell you what to do. Life in the future won’t necessarily be lonely and helpless, but there will be times where we have to use ourselves as motivation to do what needs to be done.
After reading both the book and the comments of my peers, I agree with most of them regarding Holden's quest and his mentor. His quest being his struggle to keep his innocence, and his mentor being his younger sister Phoebe. His search for innocence would explain his dislike of most adults and well of all the classmates who're growing up. And while he himself feels himself maturing, he still wants to continue on with his childhood.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Phoebe as his mentor would make perfect sense if Holden's quest was innocence. Holden not only looked up to her, he might as well have considered her his favorite person. He listens to everything she has to say, and pays more attention to her than the rest of the characters. Phoebe's actions as her mentor would make perfect sense. She's the epitome of innocence, she's young, she sees the world very differently than adults do. Even in the last scene, his departure from innocence and his childhood, he sees her and sees what he wished he could be.
I agree with David and Amy in that Mr. Anatolini served as a fairly helpful mentor for Holden. I think it's because he sees through Holden's cynical facade and maybe it's because he was once like Holden. I think Mr. Anatolini was a jaded teenager at one point and he eventually grew out of it because he had to. He cares so much about Holden and knows what to say to motivate Holden because he was Holden at one point. I've come to believe this because he doesn't see Holden like a failure like other adults do and he seems know what would help Holden. He knows that forcing more education on Holden isn't the solution and instead he encourages him to read in order to feel less lonely, “It’s a beautiful reciprocal arrangement. And it isn’t education. It’s history. It’s poetry” (pg 246). Mr. Anatolini is calm and gives several pieces of good advice that Holden barely objects to. The advice isn't what makes Holden uncomfortable. It isn't like his interaction with Mr. Spencer where Holden is itching to run, instead he patiently listens to his old teacher.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with David, though, because I don't think Holden has changed. The novel is written in retrospect and it does have very sarcastic and cynical undertones which causes me to believe that Holden still has not grown up. Even though he is in a mental institution, he hasn't fully realized the gravity of his situation and is still jaded.
-Andrea Ramirez
I believe that Holden not having a particular teacher or mentor to guide him stays true to his image as a rebellious teen and fits his journey better. Holden does not particularly have anything big and solid in his mind that he wants to do or has to do so there was never really a reason for him to have a teacher to assist him and guide him through it. This makes the book a lot more enjoyable as it leaves more to the imagination as to what will happen next as it keeps everything seemingly aimless. Because of the lack of direction, until the very end of the book the reader could continue to wonder “Will Holden actually meet Jane?” The teachers who are shown in this book all seem to have something wrong with them as well, Mr. Spencer had done little for Holden and was too focused on Holden’s academic life, something that Holden obviously cared little about. Then, we have Luce who had been too busy and condescending to really hold a conversation with Holden from the moment he had entered his scene. Luce especially was unhelpful because he refused to let Holden ask what he wanted and instead spent many of his lines rejecting any of Holden’s inquiries. Lastly, Mr. Antolini was seemingly some kind of suspicious creep as he had been described to have been touching Holden’s head after having let Holden get to sleep. These teacher figures were unfit for Holden and thus he ended the book without really having the assistance of anyone.
ReplyDeleteWhile Holden may not have “mentors”, per se, I believe that he revealed one person that he can confide in; namely, Phoebe. Being that Holden and I shared a likeness in not only the age gap with our respective younger siblings, but also the state of our relationship with them, it was easy for me to identify Phoebe as someone that Holden genuinely trusted. One of the reasons why she is worth his trust, which many of my peers have mentioned, is that Phoebe represents something that Holden clings onto so dearly -- the innocence of youth. The essence of this symbolism is that Holden finds Phoebe trustworthy, understanding, and most importantly, real. I think that Phoebe’s age plays a major role in this because he typically saw the adults that he encountered as either phony or pitiful for one reason or another. In fact, he even appeared to pity nuns! As such, knowing that Phoebe was still encased in a realm of purity and goodness, and of wonder and awe, Holden chose to stay close to her instead of distancing himself, as he would usually do. Another obvious reason why he may be more trusting of Phoebe is that she is his sister. Of course, he could have trusted a friend, or a teacher; however, from passages such as his description of his sibling on page 88, it is clear that Holden sees her a lot differently compared to the other phony people in the world. He describes her as an intelligent, witty girl who listens even when she probably doesn’t understand, which communicates appreciation for Phoebe. And even in moments where he complains about her attitude when she is upset, he shows understanding and affection for her, similarly to the way that she continues to welcome his presence even if he is not the perfect brother, student, nor role model. To connect these points the notion that she is Holden’s mentor to a certain degree, I see it in a way that Phoebe is able to communicate to her brother’s emotional reasoning because he not only has a “soft spot” for her (i.e. she needs to be protected and is special because she is his younger and only sister), but he also knows that Phoebe will give him the purest truth and understands the youthful tendencies that he has (while other people would just see it as typical delinquent behaviors). The extent to which she sees through him and guides him in the midst of his turmoils is rather great, as one can see in the sacrifices that she is willing to make for him when she gives him her Christmas money without a second thought and brings her suitcase to school just to be with him. Not to mention, she also persuaded him to come back home, which was one of his biggest challenges as it was driven by guilt and the fear of looking like a failure.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the book Holden has been on his own since the beginning. At first, I thought that his mentor could be his history teacher at Pencey, however Holden criticized and judged his teacher very harshly which proved that he was not. There has been potential mentors for Holden throughout the book, but he is not a person who likes to be helped or advised by others. When he is told by others that he should get in track and become more responsible, he doesn't want to listen and he starts attacking those people in his mind. Most of the people who have come across Holden have noticed what a mess he is, and how he is not doing anything to help himself. I don't think that Salinger was trying to tell us that life in the mid 20th century for the youth would be filled with loneliness and many moments of helplessness. Instead, I think that he was trying to show how teens used to act in the 20th century, that many times they were trapped in their own thoughts and feelings without letting anyone come in and help. This is basically the whole book, whenever Holden is with someone I don't know what he does but he pushes everyone away with his actions and his comments. In other words, I believe that Salinger is revealing that there is mentors out there, trying to help others find inner strength/ power. The way I see this is that Holden doesn't want a mentor, he does not want the help or any advise. Meaning, when you don't want to be helped you will slowly and without even knowing push possible mentors away.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with some of the comments when they mention that Phoebe is Holden's possible mentor. That nobody else understands him like Phoebe does. I will admit that it is surprising to me that out of all of the people that Holden's has reached out to, Phoebe is the one who brings him peace and some type of calmness. I believe it is due to the fact that Phoebe is young and she doesn't really know the dimension and severances' of his brother's actions. She won't pressure him like everyone else does, because she doesn't have the knowledge and experience that older people have.
i find Mr. Rodriguez's adaptation of no mentors for the twentieth century very thought provoking and i would like to elaborate on my take to his theory. such an abstract theory that Salinger poked at the idea of no suitable adult mentors in the future would have been preposterous in my opinion at first. but as i think about the world today it doesn't sound so far off. Donald Trump, a highly egotistical, radicalist figure, is running to control the future of the united states. adult terrorist groups such as ISIS is at war with the rest of the world causing and influencing violent activism. if J.D.Salinger was trying to predict a lack of adult leadership, he was correct. but i don't personally believe that was his message or intention he was trying to convey. i believe there was an absence of an adult mentor because he was trying to focus on the idea of innocence, children. throughout the entire novel all adults seem to do is disappoint Holden and put him down. children are the only people that Holden talk fondly about besides Jane. phoebe and Allie are the only ones that seem to bring joy to Holden. Jane even talks to Holden as if she was his mother or at least someone way more mature for her age. i believe Salinger wanted to make phoebe the mentor that would set Holden on the right path, and in the end it seemed like she did. when she placed the red hat back on his head it signified that he would be safe and that if the hat gave him courage to keep living, he could wear it. children are known for having a lack of fear and don't over analyze situations. so in that aspect they are courageous and brave and refuse to let the hardships of the wold affect them. i believe that was Salinger message.
ReplyDeleteOnce I realized Holden's view on the adult world early in the novel, I found it hard to believe that he would seek a mentor at all. As the novel continued and nearly everyone Holden spoke with did not fully relate with him, it become harder for me to imagine anyone being compatible with him. However after considering Holden's personality, I do not believe that Holden would willingly allow anyone to be his mentor. Holden has a stubborn personality and has seemingly no respect for the adult world. The only person that Holden respects at all is Phoebe.
ReplyDeletePhoebe serves as Holden's mentor in a somewhat indirect way. Her actions unknowingly influence Holden's actions quite ironically. It is ironic for it is usually the older sibling that serves as a role model to those younger. But Holden's love and affection for Phoebe is so dear that he cannot help but abandon his stubborn personality when with her. It is also possible that Holden is so comfortable with Phoebe for she represents another thing that he holds so dear: innocence. It is this innocence that is the center of Holden's quest throughout the novel. And its quite interesting how his quest comes to an end upon meeting the most innocent individual he knows.
I do not believe that Phoebe was a mentor to Holden because the purpose of a mentor is to teach a message from their own experiences to other people who are willing to learn. Phoebe has no experience in the world and still acts immature when she gives Holden the silent treatment. On the other hand, I do agree that Phoebe keeps Holden grounded and on the right course. Phoebe is not present in Holden's journey until the end but has been a figure to motivate Holden to do the right thing and has helped him reveal what his true purpose in life would be, to be a catcher in the rye. I believe that Allie and Phoebe's innocence has really influenced Holden to make that choice to safe children from falling off cliffs. Although Holden had no real purpose to be in NYC but going has helped him through his hero's journey, to help discover himself. Throughout the novel, the theme of growing up and finding his own individuality has been relevant from the beginning to the end of the story. When comparing Holden from the beginning of the story to the end of the story, he has in a way matured and has gained knowledge of the real world. Maybe this journey of his was to help become a mentor of Phoebe which is symbolized when he gives her his red hunting hat.
ReplyDeleteIn the novel The Catcher in the Rye, Holden is on a journey to the unknown. He goes to New York City, knowing that when his parents realize he got expelled from Pencey, they will get angry at him but he doesn’t realize the hidden motive of his journey. I feel like Holden doesn’t notice his inner struggle and that he is actually in a quest of keeping his innocence when transitioning to adulthood. Just like my peers have mentioned in the past comments, the book reflects the movement between childhood innocence and adulthood maturity.
ReplyDeleteHolden makes his quest even more difficult by rejecting any source of help throughout the book, like his teachers, and also by hating anything related to adults. He doesn’t want to stop being a kid and he agrees that he acts quite young for his age. Holden is troubled by the fact that even though he doesn’t want to become an adult, he will eventually because that’s the course of life and he can’t do anything about it.
-Paulina Quesada
Holden Caulfield is a conceited white boy who lives in New York and has attended several prestigious schools. He is clearly privileged and has a loving family. Though he did suffer the loss of his brother he has a little sister and compassionate mother, which he speaks well of. Throughout the book Caulfield only listened to his own instruction and even if the consequences of his decisions were negative he would blame others and be blind to his own faults. Holden could not even take the advice of an old history teacher that was sincerely concerned for him, so why would he take advice from anyone else. If he were to have changed his ways then this book would have been an entirely different story. The fact that he trusted his own judgment and refused any other adds to the thrill of the story. He very much needed a mentor or someone to slap some sense into this young man, the only person that might have done that was Maurice, but even so Holden was spiteful and thick headed to curse him off. He is so immune to the truth that having a mentor would have been useless. Seeing the narrator turn his crooked ways and become a respectable gentleman would be a miracle beyond belief, however; that is not this story and it is interesting to see what prevailed instead of his good fortune. Perhaps this experience will teach Holden something valuable and he will stop thinking that he is high and mighty because against the real world he, spent all his money, got beat by a pimp, and almost froze to death. In theory this experience could be his mentor and will start with the change of his attitude towards life. Through it all he might regret wasting so much opportunity and support that he had at his disposal and will teach him to be grateful of it all.
ReplyDelete-Andrea Cruz
In regards to a mentor for Holden, I think that Salinger intended to convey that a mentor does not have to conform to traditional beliefs. Holden finds unconventional mentors throughout the novel, though some are more helpful than others. In the beginning of the novel, Holden visits Old Spencer, who tries to make Holden see that there are people who care for him, people who want him to succeed and do well. As a reader, this is the first mentor of Holden's we are introduced to, and we see that he does not respond well to this authoritative adult figure. In New York, Holden looks for a mentor, looks for someone to call, only to realize that he feels utterly alone. Surely there are people he could call, but he further alienates himself by remaining alone. He looks for a friend in Jane, and chooses to reminisce in his memories of her. This nostalgia acts as a stand-in for the mentor he is seeking- Jane.
ReplyDeleteI agree with my peers that he looks for and finds a mentor in his little sister Phoebe, because she is the only one that he feels understands him and is separate from the world that he cannot seem to find a place in. Phoebe, though, is clearly an unconventional mentor. She is only a child, and does not offer Holden any serious advice. She attempts to help Holden make a breakthrough, asking him to name one thing he "[likes] a lot" (Steinbeck 172), only to mock him when he answers "I like Allie... and sitting here with you" (Steinbeck 170). Phoebe is not to be blamed for this, seeing as she is only a kid, and cannot be responsible with advising her 16 year old brother.
After leaving his house, Holden finds another mentor in the unconventional former teacher Mr. Antolini. Mr. Antolini is not like the other adults in Holden's life. He seems to parallel Mr. Spencer, the teacher he spoke with in the beginning of the novel, but is seen very differently by Holden. Spencer was seen as old and frail, and Holden resents him for this. Antolini is seen as young and vibrant, which Holden seems to respond to. When Mr. Antolini asks Holden, "'If I write something down for you, will you read it carefully? And keep it?'", Holden reveals "I did too. I still have the paper he gave me" (Steinbeck 188). Holden finds a mentor that truly wants to help him, and then continues to alienate himself by fleeing, scared that "something perverty" (Steinbeck 193) had happened.
After reading some of my peer's comments I can agree that Phoebe is Holden's mentor. There is no doubt that a bond between siblings is the strongest bond when it comes to family members. Even though Holden met a lot of people throughout his journey, they were just giving him advice and that was pretty much it. An example would be Mr. Spencer and Mr. Antolini who told him to care about his future yes they gave good advice but they didn't really help straighten him up. There is also his parents but they weren't much involved on what he was doing. But on the other hand Holden felt happy whenever Phoebe was with him. He is in New York where he is surrounded by many adults but Phoebe is different, she is an innocent child who sees the world in a different way. I believe that by the help of Phoebe he has come to the conclusion that sooner or later he will become an adult and can't do anything about it because that is how life goes. - Lithzy Alvarado
ReplyDeleteThroughout the book there were two people that tried to lead Holden on the right path, his history teacher Mr. Spencer and old English teacher, Mr. Antolini. Holden found himself only saying what those two teachers wanted to hear, but he disliked what they were trying to tell him. While reading, I was assuming that this climax was to happen and I did not expect to read a large amount of Holden wandering around New York constantly depressed and under age drinking. I also wondered why the school did not notify Holden’s parents after he got the "boot" departure. It help supports Holden’s claim that the school is phony. They are not his mentors and no mentor tried talked to Holden on a personal level. Instead, they told him to change the way he acts and be what society wants him to be. Holden is vulnerable at this point and made irrational decisions without anyone trying to help him fix his childish ways.
ReplyDeleteI agree with my peers the Phoebe although she is not an adult can be seen as Holden's mentor. Throughout the book Holden mentions his younger sister phoebe. When Holden arrived in New York and was in the station waiting in the phone booth he had to decide who to call. Upon deciding he was going to give his sister a "buzz" but later decided not to because he did not want his parents to find out he was home. Phoebe can be seen as Holden's mentor because like the theme of the book Phoebe portrays the innocence and happiness of his childhood. Holden throughout the book is cynical towards adults which in turn means he is searching for innocence. This can explain why he dislikes adults and most of his older peers. Which is where his little sister Phoebe comes into play as his mentor. Phoebe represents his childhood and innocence. Phoebe is one of Holden's favorite people and to him she represents that innocence that he is searching for. For example before Holden leaves Phoebe she is on a carousel and he is admiring her, wishing that he could be her. In many ways it can be seen that by Phoebe being his mentor he continues to remain innocent and refuse the adult world.
ReplyDeleteWhile Holden expresses his respect towards some individuals throughout the novel, I do not believe he has a mentor. Do not get me wrong; many characters expose Holden's follies, but they do not genuinely take interest in helping him.
ReplyDeleteNotice how no one acknowledges his mental health? Everyone just focuses on his academic performance. Like many of my peers have expressed, Phoebe is the only exception, she cares about Holden overall. Towards the end of the novel Phoebe truly encourages Holden to reflect upon his decisions. Therefore, Phoebe sparked a change in Holden since she did not just talk to him about how destructive his actions would be. In page 228 she mocked Holden's past and future decisions. Phoebe made Holden realize that school is important, and that leaving New York would be childish and detrimental to his well-being by implying that she wanted to follow his foot steps. Salinger is trying to tell us to not be dependent on anyone, and that age does not define maturity.
-Ingrid Reyes
I believe that one of the reasons this book is such a literary hit is because of the absence of a role model. I do not believe that Holden is a “hero”, he is simply a boy trying to find his way in the world. The absence of a role model lets you trust that these are Holden’s true reactions and opinions to the world, not someone else’s that he picked up on. This is Holden’s journey into adulthood, the lack of guidance allows him to make his own mistakes and grow at his own pace, thus making this book unique. Throughout he talks of “keeping innocence.” I don't believe he is talking of his own, I’ve conjured that he has lost hope for himself. He hasn't had a role model to protect him from the ugly world, this fact makes him want other children to have what he did not have; innocence and a role model. I believe that through his journey in New York he finds what he want to be; the catcher in rye, or someone to protect children the way he wished he had been protected.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe absence of a strong mentor is important when looking at Holden’s character development. I agree with the idea that the book may be making a statement about the lack of role models for the teenagers of the 50s. Holden did not have a reliable adult to look up to. He is too emotionally detached from his parents to see them as mentors. When he considers calling Phoebe, he decides not to, since their parents would find out he was kicked out of Pencey Prep. Even if he did see them as his role models, his mother was still too devastated by the death of Allie to guide Holden. The adult Holden did look up to, Mr. Antolini, was an alcoholic who was caught watching him sleep. This lack of guidance has left Holden isolated and disinterested in school. He has little purpose to persevere, leading to his expulsion from Pencey Prep.
ReplyDeleteHowever, Holden does have a couple of mentors: Allie and Phoebe. In fact, Holden’s feeling of disenfranchisement may have arisen from the lack of support he received following Allie’s death. Even though Allie died, Holden continued to see him as one of the most intelligent people he knew, despite Allie’s age. Holden had brought Allie’s glove with him to Pencey, exemplifying his admiration of his late brother. The problem is, Holden failed to consider what Allie would think about his actions, so Allie’s status as a role model is largely diminished until the end. Phoebe can also be considered a role model, but, like Allie, does not play a major role guiding Holden until the end of the book. She is one of the few characters Holden is willing to open up to, and one who was willing to protect him at any cost. This is demonstrated in Chapter 23, when she hides Holden from their mother. Additionally, she is the one who convinces Holden to come back home.
Allie and Phoebe both serve as role models for Holden, despite being younger siblings. Holden spends the better part of the book making terrible decisions, like getting inebriated and hiring a prostitute, among other issues. While he does have figures in his life who are able to guide him, Holden lacks a responsible, trustworthy adult mentor. Salinger may be implying that, even though it is important to have relatable mentors, there still needs to be a mature, older figure, who is willing to help a growing teenager. If Holden had guidance from an adult, he may have been more a more disciplined human.
-Maxwell Bauer
I agree with my classmates in that Holden is on a quest throughout New York City to maintain his purity from the adult world. Since Holden knows he cannot physically stop time, he attempts to find a way to distance himself from the phoney adults around him. This task, however is proving difficult for Holden. From the beginning of the novel, Holden seems to be searching for a guide on how to grow up without being a phoney. Through all the adults he attempts to make a connection with, he never finds one to comfort him. Holden not finding a true mentor could be a statement that teenagers at the time period did not have anyone to look up to, and that they had to discover the world by themselves. After just ending the war, with which Salinger himself despised, the teenagers could not trust the adults who had a mindset of being "phoney". Therefore, Salinger must have questioned that if adults could not be trusted, then who were teenagers supposed to look up to? That seemed to be the quest that Holden has throughout the novel. Holden must understand himself and the world on his own.
ReplyDeletePerhaps Holden's mentor is found near the end of the novel. Unfortunately it had to be a perverted teacher because perverted seems to happen around Holden as he shared with us. Nevertheless, Mr Antolini was sharing pretty philosophical insight on the value of education, something Holden did not desire or covet.
ReplyDelete"Among other things, you'll find that you're not the first person who was ever confused and frightened and even sickened by human behavior. You're by no means alone on that score, you'll be excited and stimulated to know. Many, many men have been just as troubled morally and spiritually as you are right now. Happily, some of them kept records of their troubles. You'll learn from them--if you want to. Just as someday, if you have something to offer, someone will learn something from you. It's a beautiful reciprocal arrangement'"(Chapter 24). Mr. Antolini explains that through an education Holden can find others that think just like him and learn how they ventured on through similar endeavors. This book could be the contribution that Mr. Antolini was talking about. Maybe Holden wants us to learn something from his journey in his hopes that their are others who think just like him. However, things never seem to go right for Holden and this mentor figure that looked as though was going to save Holden turned out to have deviant behavior.
Alan Contreras
While I was reading the novel, I was unable to find any sort of mentor character for Holden because I do not think that Holden really embarked on a hero's journey. The traditional structure of a Hero's Journey is the hero leaving an ordinary world after the encouragement of a mentor to take a epic quest wrought with defining hardships in an attempt to find the treasure and eventually returning home as a hero or savior. Catcher in the Rye doesn't follow this traditional structure, but Holden definitely takes a journey and returns a different person. I think that Salinger wrote Holden's time in New York City so that it could be enough like a journey, but purposefully changed it so that Holden didn't become a hero.
ReplyDeleteHolden lacked a suitable mentor or grand treasure to find because he is not a hero. Holden is simply a regular teenager who was dealt a bad hand in life. He hides from his failures by running away to New York and avoiding his family until he is too sick to continue on his own. He has no one to support him, and is exposed to the realities of a life without anyone. By the end of the novel, Holden accepts the help that he needs, but does not become a hero. Holden's story is not a Hero's Journey, but a story of coming of age and self-acceptance.
-Mackenzie Spence
The Catcher in the Rye presents the reader with a different type of hero. One that seeks individual insight and wisdom through experience and encounters. Holden Caulfield is a misguided teenager that happens to see the flaws in people regardless of social standing. Though his perspective may be at times very negative, he points out the flaws in people in all honesty despite their reputation or presence throughout the plot. Caulfield also represents the fact that reality can be harsh in that many people forge their paths in life without any guidance. Salinger demonstrates the fact that one must digress from a path that one is not willing to conform with in order to be happy. His interaction with Mr Antolini towards the end of the novel came as an occurrence in the aftermath of all his own decisions. Salinger intends to posit the fact that the best way to seek guidance is to make your own decision regardless of a lack of guidance or mentorship to achieve happiness.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading this novel, I also agree with my peers on the fact that as Holden moves around through New York City he is on a journey or quest to not be driven directly into adulthood. Even though he knows he will have to encounter it eventually he seems to run away from it alone as demonstrated in the novel.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with my classmate Joey that he seems to be looking for something or someone to teach him to not grow up to be the type of men that he despises. Unfortunately at this time he did not have anyone to guide or mentor him through this quest of finding who he wants to be in the future. However, I also realized that around page 184 when he is speaking to his sister Phoebe, she serves as the mentor that he has needed although she is young. He is able to share with her his thoughts and ideas and she gives her honest opinion.
With that being said Salinger has had the readers question whether or not back then many teenage kids had been in the same situation and if adults did not serve as role models for shaping them in who they want to be.
-Mariana Simmons
DeleteI agree with Andres that Holden is a different type of hero. He is trying to figure out how to mature without becoming a phony. It is difficult for Holden because he is unable to build a connection with any adult in the novel since they are all seen as phonies. Although many adults attempt to guide Holden, he never finds a mentor because he thinks all of them are trying too hard. Holden criticizes nearly everyone he encounters in the novel and it holds him back from finding the comfort he is seeking. By Holden not having a mentor to guide him, he finds the world more difficult to comprehend. I read that a few of my peers mentioned Pheobe as a viable mentor but I see her more as someone who provides him with the happiness he needs to keep going. The simple thought of Pheobe excites Holden because she is one of the most innocent people he knows. Although they have an inseparable bond, she is unable to be his mentor due to her lack of maturity.
ReplyDelete-Mat Fernandez
DeleteHolden's journey is what I see as an escape route, through this journey he avoids the harsh reality of adulthood with ideas about moving to these rural areas where he wouldn't be forced to communicate with others. I think Holden's quest of avoidance is inevitably short-lived because while he takes his time deterring from interaction, he always in someway ends up where he is meant to be or where he's been avoiding.
ReplyDeleteHolden is on a quest to reach adulthood without losing his 'innocence' or rather becoming phony. It is clear that he has a tight grip on childhood that he doesn't seem to want to release.
I think Holden both had a mentor and did not have a mentor because there were people in his life who fed him advice in hopes that he'd go in the right direction but they never really ensured that he followed through, they were not prominent figures in his life. I do not believe Pheobe is Holden's mentor because while she does teach him lessons he is not exactly guided by her in anyway. Children will help anyone learn things but for that I don't believe that she specifically was his mentor.
-Jayla Hudson
Holden seems to be wandering on his own throughout Catcher in the Rye without any clear objective. Holden also does not have any real mentor figure for himself. Thus, I believe that Holden is actually going on his own “hero’s journey” throughout The Catcher in the Rye. Because he has no true mentor, as he seems unsociable between most people and is often away from his family, Holden must feel confused about what he is doing with himself. He must be going on a journey to find out how to grow into adulthood. As he grows through adolescence with no real guide, he seeks to find himself and learn more about himself as he goes off on his own. To be more precise I don’t believe that J.D. Salinger is trying to point out that in the twentieth century people have to mentor themselves, but instead Salinger must be trying to display how Holden himself deals with having no mentor for him within the twentieth century era.
ReplyDeleteIn contrast to many other in response to this post, I disagree that Phoebe is a mentor to Holden. Phoebe herself is very immature and childish, but has a good mindset for the twentieth century as she understand how school is important and how Holden’s continued expulsion are wrong. However, Phoebe herself does very little to guide Holden. In fact I believe that when Holden decides to go visit Phoebe, he is still guiding himself as he must have thought that Phoebe as family is very important to him. I believe that Holden learned importance of family as he was on his “hero’s journey” and his visiting Phoebe reflects his mentoring of himself.
-Seth Yves Perez
ReplyDeleteThis idea of the mentor role in a "hero's journey" or "quest" is not too obvious in Salinger's novel, but the lack of a mentor emphasizes Holden's character. As some of my peers indicated, Holden reflects the growing independent thinking of the generation's youth that remains today also. Even though Holden does encounter a variety of mentor-like figures, such as his old history teacher, he still takes it upon himself to make his own decisions. In the novel, he undergoes these "trials and tribulations" but in a manner different than that of Ulysses and Luke Skywalker. Holden's journey is a more personal and individual quest to find his rightful place in society. Throughout the novel, Holden finds himself deep in his thoughts that reveal a sense of loneliness. In the scene with his old history teacher where he gives him advice in moving on after failing his classes, Holden tries to think for himself about the character's statements. However, he struggles with this because he lacks intimate companionship with the teacher and other characters throughout the novel. Characters in the story do reach out to Holden with knowledge and guidance, but he seems to disregard it and choose his own way out of his problems. I believe that this reveals his own challenge in figuring out if he has grown out of his immaturity and reached his full potential.
On a broader scale, Salinger does convey through Holden's journey that there will be moments where the mid 20th century's and 21 century's youth feel lost or helpless without a stable mentor. Teenagers both now and then believe they have their minds straight and goals focused. However, the lack of a mentor in their own "hero's / heroine's journey" puts these characters in a more difficult challenge. Salinger, in the end of it all, reveals how younger generations such as Holden would need the mentor figure to guide them in finding their true life purpose.
-Leiana Lepule
To me the quest is evident but the mentor for Holden could mean so much in the context of the book, the author, and real life. For the book to me it shows that Holden needs someone who understands him, shares the same experiences as him, but he will never find a mentor like that because the previous generations are all conformity type adults and wouldn't understand rebellious teenagers and thus cannot understand Holden as a rebel. In the context of the author he has been through many traumatic experiences such as the war and maybe trying to tell us that men and women who have gone through traumatizing things may need help from this type of PTSD that veterans have, but not just for veterans but for people who need someone to talk to to get advice from them. In the context of life youth usually do whatever they feel like doing, however; they need someone to instruct them what they can do, what they should do, and what is right because without that mentor, teacher, parent, counselor, or guardian many would be lost on what problems need the right actions. Therefore, I think the author is trying to tell us humans need that wiser friend who has been through what they have experienced and will offer them help along their way so that they won't commit any mistakes.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jayla Hudson's statement that Holden is on a journey sort of as an escape from reality and adulthood. Holden desperately tries to look for innocence in a world full of, as he claims, phonies. Since Holden perceives adults as phonies, I believe that he intentionally avoids having a mentor because he doesn't want someone who he assumes is superficial to teach him about the adult world. Accepting a mentor would just clash with Holden's view on the world, and would potentially cause more harm to Holden's psychological health than good. Additionally, this could be why Holden feels such loneliness and helplessness in his life, always trying to connect with someone (such as Sally or Jane) yet always failing. Holden may not want an adult mentor but maybe someone who is closer to his age, or someone who is still young and innocent in comparison to the "phony" adult. A potential mentor for Holden could be his younger sister Phoebe, who Holden states is much smarter than him. However, a flaw in what Holden perceives in the world is that he fails to analyze his own character. He judges others yet doesn't question his cruel actions towards others. For example, he bluntly claims that Sally is a "royal pain in the ass," clearly not thinking before he speaks. Holden's search for this idealist world is futile. Basing his journey on such views will ultimately lead him nowhere, and will only contribute to his mental breakdown.
ReplyDelete-Meagan Phillips
I agree with the previous statements made in that Holden lacks a mentor or someone he can go to when in need. Although it seems adults attempt to help Holden, they only worsen his situation. The adults that Holden respects worsen his mental estate by constantly telling him what he is doing wrong. An adolescent does not want to be told what they already know, they seek improvement. These adults in the novel do not provide the adequate assistance needed for Holden. Additionally, I would like to agree with my peer Ingrid that not one adult asks if Holden is ok or recognize his mental instability. That is so true I had not noticed that until now. The adults in this book are quite oblivious in what is going on with Holden.
ReplyDeleteWithout a mentor Holden has clearly fallen apart however in the future he will recognize that it will actually benefit him. Holden’s lack of guidance exemplifies the courage of an adolescent fighting his internal battles and growing up.
-Natalie Aguilar
I believe that Holden is on a quest to find happiness with someone and is also trying to see if he can fit in, in the adult life. Throughout the book, Holden tries to make friends with random men and women he happens to run into. He does this for example with the mother of a boy at Pencey Prep. He talks with her on a train and invites her to have a drink with her, but she declines. Holden wants to become more associated with adults to see what it is like. Even though it is evident that Holden is not ready for adulthood, Holden wants to feel like he will be better off in the "real world".
ReplyDeleteWhen I initially read this prompt, I was confused and unwilling to write anything about it. But after reading a few responses from my peers and thought about it, the more I grew to like what they had to say. Noelle and Abegail touched on something I had never even considered before. Holden views his younger sister, Phoebe, as the epitome of al that is good and innocent in his life. However, she understands that growing up is an inevitable part of life, an idea that Holden seems to reject. Though she is only ten years old, it is clear that she is more emotionally mature than Holden is ready to be and that, to me, is the biggest indicator that she is his mentor. She is definitely not the most conventional mentor, considering she is still a child, but Holden is not the most conventional person. Phoebe being the one he turns to when he is in need shows his reliance on childhood and innocence and unwillingness to grow up. Phoebe is the voice of reason throughout the novel, both in person and in his mind, who redirects him in his moments of need. Whether it is because he trusts her and regards her more highly than anyone else or because she knows so much about who he is and what he likes/dislikes, Phoebe gets through to Holden in ways no adult can.
ReplyDelete-Sophia Dugan
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion Holden is on a quest that has no ending. He is just trying to find a way to escape, escape from adulthood and all the phonies. On his date with sally he gets an idea that they should run away together to some forest and build a cabin away from everyone else. He also decide that he would never go home and go hitchhiking out west somewhere were nobody knew him.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to whether Holden had a mentor, I cant help but agree with Noelle and Abegail that Phoebe is somewhat of a mentor to Holden. The way Holden describes Phoebe I can tell that he admires her and respects her. It can also be said that out of all the other character she understands Holden the best.
-David Valentin
Well first of all he thought of his dad as phony because of his profession so the fact that he didn’t. Holden didn’t exactly know how to react with adults. In the beginning of the novel he didn’t know how to interact well with his professor that was sick. Apparently his professor had tried to reach out to Holden but he didn’t know how to respond and simply blew him off. Because of the way he interacts with adults is quite strange. And also adults don’t seem to help much just drive him away just like his old teacher whom he visited at the end of the novel.
ReplyDeleteEither way Holden went through his journey without the help of an adult and learned from his actions and simply developed.
I agree with Natalie’s statement about the effects on Holden by not having a mentor. In our teenage lives, we often have role models that we try to live up to or people who guide us through our lives. This is, in most cases, our parents. They provide us with advice and attempt to place us in the right path. Holden, however, does have such advantage. His parents are often oblivious to what he is doing. This is demonstrated by their unawareness that he got kicked out of Pencey. Even after he did, he did not want to call them as he left. This goes to show that he lacks support. With no one to constantly encourage him to push forward with his life, he is left alone trying to make the best for himself. Without a mentor, he has to make decisions on his own, sometimes bad ones, and only through his mistake will he be able to learn. Especially in his age, since he hasn’t fully matured yet.
ReplyDeleteHolden’s journey was certainly different than another other character I have ever read in other books. Usually they end up happy or accept the situation they end up in. This is the only book that I have read where the main character ended up in a mental hospital or in a place you never imagined especially if they were going home to their family. He did not have a mentor or a clear conscious that would lead him on the right path. Even though Holden did not have a mentor he did want to become a mentor for others hence he was the catcher in the rye. If Salinger is saying that the generations to come would not have a mentor and would end up helpless he is foreseeing that the people would not be successful and society will not move forward. I believe that it is sad but true. People are absentmindedly walking around without any help. People are now so self absorbed that they do not want to help others to help them or do not want to help others. I do agree with my fellow peers that his quest is to maintain his innocence however along the way he somewhat becomes corrupted by the real world. That is also what Salinger might mean, everyone has already been corrupted by the world that there are not any mentors left to keep to youth sane. -Eileen Gutierrez
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden's lack of a mentor-esque figure is reflected upon his desire to be a consultant himself- the catcher in the rye. As you know, the catcher protects children from falling into the stereotypical "phony" adulthood.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Holden did not have a mentor, someone to steer his conscious in the right direction and help to make decisions, simply adds to the reality of the book in that in reinforces his distaste for phonies. Phonies need to consult others in order to conclude at the most fraudulent answer, whereas Holden does what he feels, when he feels without the need for anyone else's opinion.
While in New York, I believe that Holden is actually on a quest for something. I think the journey he is on is trying to find himself and figure out what he wants in life. When he is in New York, he had several people trying to help him with his problems. Unfortunately, none of the people he contacted were able to help him. Whenever someone would try to give him advice or words of wisdom, he would not listen to what they had to say. Maybe he was trying to tell us that future generations would not be able to access a mentor that was suitable for them because he thought they were phonies. Maybe he thought that because they were adults, they would not know how to help or mentor the future generations. In sum, maybe Holden did not find a suitable mentor because he wanted everything to be his way and is not trying to tell us that life is going to be lonely.
ReplyDelete-Janessa Pujeda
I believe that in this case, Holden's quest is to find out who he is and where he belongs, like most teenagers. In the typical hero's journey, the hero would get taught by a mentor, go on a journey, accomplish his goal, and live happily ever after. However, Holden's story lacks all parts except the journey. He has no guidance whatsoever, and has to find himself on his own. I think that this is realistic, since many people do not have parents or teachers to properly teach them how to handle life. Holden was too immature and lazy to be able to find himself, so in the end, I think that he never accomplished the hero's goal. As a result, he did not get to live happily ever after, as shown by him ending up in a mental ward. Holden's life acts as a hero's journey gone wrong.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading this novel, I believe Holden's quest is to to figure out who he is as a person and what he wants in his future. Throughtout the book, he constantly brings up suicide and depression in a way where he almost doesn't know what to do with himself. I also noticed that Holden never knows how to respond to people whenever he's asked what he wants to do in the future. I truly believe Holden likes to live life as it is and not have it planned. By reading the the novel, so many unexpected events occur at the most unexpected moments.
ReplyDelete-Danica Bordallo