Dear AP students:
I want to draw your attention to page 121, where Holden
is describing parts of the museum. Let's see if you can determine the
significance of these two passages.
The first passage I want you to focus on is
when he describes the Indian squaw. He mentions that the squaw making a blanket
was bending over and that you could see her "bosom and
all". He also says his fellow students, even the girls, would
try to sneak a good look at it, "even the girls, because they were only
little kids, and they didn't have any more bosoms than we did."
Can anyone comment on that passage? What does
it have to do with any of the possible themes for this book?
In the second passage he describes the Eskimos. He
says the best thing about the museum was that everything always stayed right
where it was. "Nobody'd move...Nobody'd be different...The only thing that
would be different would be you. Not that you'd be that much older or anything.
It wouldn't be that exactly."
Again, can anyone explain the significance of that passage in terms of any
possible themes for the book?
The passage with the Squaw woman seems to me to be a passage about growing up, in the physical sense. The children are fascinated by the woman because she is a representation of what they, being the girls, would have when they grow up. It is a common feeling among children, to be interested in those older than you who have features you will eventually attain. It is a fascination with adulthood. From the perspective of a child, adulthood is some great advantage where you're independent and free of your parent's constraint.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure everyone wanted to be older as a child, pretending to be an adult the way you fantasize it. However, it is clear with his impending adulthood, Holden doesn't want to grow up. He's grown half a foot in the past year and already has grey hair, a sign on age if there ever was one. The passage about the Eskimos is Holden's way of expressing his desire to cling to the past. He loves the museum because it never changes. Holden wishes that he could never change because change means the responsibilities of adulthood and the lack of innocence that only children have. He also fears adulthood because of how phony he believes that adulthood is. There are many reasons why he would consider this world phony, but chiefly because he is so often deceived or betrayed by those few adults that he actually trusts. Mr. Spencer, Mr. Antolini, even his brother D.B. betrayed him in some form. That is why the museum is so special to Holden. It never changes, so it can never betray him and it can never hurt him.
-Mackenzie Spence
The squaw woman in the museum is a representation of growing in a more representation in that fascination children often have with growing into adulthood and the eagerness of the transition. The passage about the Eskimos and over the larger passage of the glass cases displays Holden's desires to stop and preserve time just as the glass cases do. Holden's desire to preserve and freeze the time preventing childhood from transitioning into the complex complicated world of adulthood. Holden expresses this toward the end of the chapter "Certain things they should just stay the way they are. You ought to be able to stick them inside one of those big glass cases and just leave them alone. I know that's impossible, but its too bad anyway." In this Passage Holden expresses his desire to freeze time and stop it from going forward specifically about the major theme of innocence of childhood as the transition and maturation into adulthood.
ReplyDeleteHolden's description of the Squaw woman, and his recollection of all the children sneaking looks at her, exposes the curiosity and wonder involved with being a child yearning to grow up. As a child, one is fascinated by the freedoms that being an adult provides. Adults are a foreign species to children, different both physically and mentally. They are who children look up to, who they eagerly aspire to be. This passage also reveals the innocence in the curiosity of a child, an innocence which is inevitably lost when one grows up. The fear and discomfort associated with growing up is one of the themes in this novel. Holden's discussion of the innocent children elicits the idea the he yearns to be a child again, full of innocence and hope that has been replaced by pessimistic views and fears of responsibility. The theme of growing up and the inevitable change which results is also conveyed in the passage describing the Eskimos. Holden found comfort in the stability provided by the museum displays, which no matter what were always there, exactly the way they were before. I agree with Mackenzie that the stability provided by the museum is important to Holden because he feels isolated and somewhat betrayed by multiple people in his life, particularly his brother, D.B. I also believe that during the chaos and tremendous change occurring in his teenage years, the museum represents security. Despite Holden's multiple moves from school to school, and people moving in and out of his life, the museum remained the same. This connects to the theme of growing up, and being enveloped by change. This is a theme all teenagers relate to at some point during their adolescence. The fear of growing up causes us to search for security and comfort in something stable from our childhood, something that will not disappear with our youth.
ReplyDelete-Lilliana Conradi
The first passage seems to connect with the them of growing up that seems to be a central factor in this novel. the young boys and well as girl are all fascinated with it in a physical and mental sense. Shown as an effect of puberty both genders are curious as how they as well as each other will be changing in a few years. This further presses on the fact that things for Holden are forever changing and also relates back to the theme of self identity and shows how everyone at this time is trying to find themselves.this passage clearly expresses the ideas of these themes and proves to advance them as well as further suggest themselves to readers. In the second passage,Holden's description of the Eskimo refers back to his past, and of the inconstancy in his life. Holden's impression of the museum and how everything in it stays, reflects his emotion of inconsistency in his life and how he yearns for stability. Through his rotation of schools and the lose of his younger brother, Holden is well acquainted with lose and change, however does not fully accept it. Holden's description of how the only thing that would be different is you, provides evidence to his insecurity and how he felt in boarding school among these other young men. Further pressing a theme of self identity and the idea that as young people we crave acceptance among our peers. In the museum, Holden insinuates that he truly feels different through his explanations which actually reflect on himself. this passage is significant to this novel it outlines the theme and provides evidence as well. Reflecting back on ideas from past chapters, Holden expresses his insecurity and revels to readers how damaged this young character actually is.
ReplyDelete-Janelle Stradford
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ReplyDeleteThe passage about the squaw woman, seems to be correlate with the common theme throughout the book about staying innocent and young. Holden mentions in this passage that they all, being the little boys, would "sneak a good look at it", he then presumes to say that, "even the girls, because they were only little kids and they didn't have any more bosom than we did." Little kids in general are constantly curious and interested in new things, and this ties into the theme of self identity. Puberty is a life changing milestones for children, so when the boys AND girls become interested in the Indian woman's bosoms it stands as a symbol of yet another thing that would be changing in Holden's life.
ReplyDeleteThe second passage about the Eskimo staying the same no matter how many times Holden went back to the museum stands for the inconsistency throughout Holden's life. Holden seems to cherish the museum significantly because of the fact that nothing will change when you go back to the museum. He says, "You could go there a hundred thousand times, and that Eskimo would still be just finished catching those two fish..., and that squaw with the naked bosom would still be weaving that same blanket. Nobody's be different." Holden seems afraid to grow up and that's the significance of the museum because it stays the same, it allows Holden to stay the same.
I partly believe that if Holden grows up he has to let go of his dead brother Allie. Allie was a huge part of Holden's childhood and Holden holds onto the past where he was sometimes mean to Allie, that he can no longer change. By not growing up he can't let go of Allie, and everything stays the same, his love for Jane, his obsession of failing all his classes to get kicked out of 3 different schools and more of his idiotic scenarios.
-Breana Barnes
These scenes, to me, have to do with the themes of innocence, youth, and self-identity. As many have noted about the woman's bosom on page 157, childhood curiosity means that those who peek at the woman's breasts still have yet to reach puberty, the first step towards becoming an adult. Holden cherishes this because it is a sign of innocence. It shows to him these children have not been corrupted by adolescence. I also agree with the interpretations of the second scene about change. Holden is intent on clinging to his childhood, and preserving the purity of youth in others. I think he realizes that time passes and changes people, yet doesn't want to accept that aging is necessary and inevitable.
ReplyDeleteRight after Holden describes this, Holden puts on his red hunting hat. Although I believe the hat is a symbol of Holden's individuality, I think here it functions as a way to show how Holden wants to be more like his two younger siblings, who both have red hair. He wants to return to a time when he was young like them.
- Amy Lopez
In my opinion, Mackenzie is completely right on the note that younger children are often interested in the people they will eventually become, both physically and spiritually. I can relate to this idea, because when I was younger I always imagined myself as a grown up adult looking like my mother or other women I would encounter. All children want to grow up and do things they want, but Holden has a grasp on the fact that this desire is wrong. He thinks that wanting to grow up is not something kids should want because of all the realities they will have to face.
ReplyDeleteThe museum is a metaphor for time not passing and Holden not growing up. It represents his desire to stay young and not grow older. But I also saw it a different way. I thought that maybe Holden was comparing the old society with the new one during his time. We all know that during his teenage years, our narrator's world was beginning to change. People's values were changing, and some were beginning to speak out against injustices. I feel that he was possibly using the museum as a metaphor for the older society never changing into the new one it was becoming. But that is just my opinion. I do still agree that he sees the museum as a place that never changes, which is how he wants his life to be: never changing.
-Negin Mohtashemian
The fist passage with the Indian squaw, I see the recurring theme of innocence like many other times in the story. The young children who could see the woman's "bosom" were simply curious. Holden notices, "even the girls, because they were only little kids, and didn't have any more bosoms than we did." None of the children felt guilty for what they did because they are only kids. This is where I see the innocence of childhood coming into play. This passage could also show growing up in the physical sense. The young girls looked as well because that is what they would eventually have to expect as they got older. I can see how this passage shows purity, innocence, and even eagerness during childhood. In the next passage about the eskimos, Holden states that, "Nobody'd move...Nobody'd be different. The only thing that would be different would be you." I believe that this quote by Holden shows how he clings to the past. He does not want to grow up. He reminisces about all of the good times he has had at the museum, but he knows that he will never feel the same way. Everything physically stayed the same, but as Holden gets older, he does not get that same warm feeling he did as a child. He is afraid to let go of his past and embrace adulthood, because he sees the adult world around him as phony. He does not want to grow up because he knows he will lose his innocence he had as a child, one of the main themes we see in the story.
ReplyDelete-Justin Bleisch
Towards the end of the paragraph, Holden emphasizes the still nature of the displays in the museum. He describes in great detail how, "Nobody'd move. You could go there a hundred thousand times, and that Eskimo would still be just finished catching those two fish, the birds would still be on their way south, the deers would still be drinking out of that water hole... Nobody'd be different," (157-158). Holden also notes that this was the best thing about the museum. From this text, I can infer that Holden was very confused about the way society worked as well as his place within the society. His environment was constantly changing, and Holden was not given the time to think through his situation and his life. He perhaps was lost in the process of defining who he was, and longed for the stillness and unchanging aspect the museum had. Many students in today's society face the same difficulties. Physically and mentally, teens experience a plethora of changes, and there are times when it feels as if they have been caught in a whirlwind, incapable of doing anything. At such time, to find something that is unchanging would appeal very much to the teen, and in this novel, Holden Caulfield. This therefore builds the character to a greater extent and to which many teens can relate to. Holden is a mixed up teenager, afraid and tired of changes, and is bitter that, "The only thing that would be different would be you," (158) when he does not wish to be so.
ReplyDeleteFor the first passage about the squaw woman, I agree with the others when they say that it was meant as an example of how everyone—at one point in their lives—thinks about the future that's supposed to become of them.
ReplyDeleteIn the second passage, however, Holden wants life to be like the exhibits in a museum: unchanging. this could explain why throughout the book, Holden tends to avoid discussions about adulthood. And although he talked about running away and having his own cabin, it would have been attempt to, yet again, not face adulthood. The passage also could explain why, at times, Holden still acts as if he was still twelve years old, not wanting to change, not wanting to be any different in the future.
Holden's comment about the young children, even girls sneaking looks at the Native girl's "Bosom" is a message about the unending curiosity that runs through a child's mind daily. Children are always wondering what older people do and look like, this situation is no different, the younger kids got a look at what being older is like, even if it is from the skewed perspective of children. As for the second passage, I think that this is a yearning for more control in life. I think Holden wishes that life was a controlled environment like the museum he is in, one in which he wouldn't have to worry about the unknown, and one in which nothing changed. I think that this is extremely relatable, especially for younger people.
ReplyDelete-Morgan Buell
The first passage is about the innocence of children. Looking at someone's bosom they're bending down is something very wrong to do but the children aren't thinking about that. Instead they just look and giggle without thinking about it. Children are curious and don't think about what society thinks of their actions as much as someone that is older does.
ReplyDeleteIn the second passage, Holden is showing his desire for things to stay the same. He is currently in the part of his life before adulthood and has experienced many changes like going to different schools. Like with his question on where the ducks go, he is unsure on where to go with his life and would much rather have everything stay the same.
~Sofia Alduenda
After analyzing page 121, I am an agreement with my peer Mackenzie that the passage of the Indian squaw woman has to do with the children's fascination over what they will become in the future. The curiosity that both the little boys and little girls possess show how innocent children are before reaching adolescence and how that is taken away from them as they grow up and experience the world. I believe he is also making a connection to the Indian room because the displays are always the same whereas the children who visit them are always changing.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly, the passage about the Eskimos shows how much the frozen display appeals to Holden. Holden can judge the Eskimo, but the Eskimo will never judge him back. I think that the Museum of Natural History as a whole represents the simple and unchanging world that Holden wish he lived in. He rather have his life remain still than have to deal with unpredictable events such as the death of his brother Allie, that impacts his life everyday.
-Atheana Lopez
Along with my peers, I believe the first passage represents a child's curiosity in which Caulfield still seems to have during his teenage years. When Caulfield says, "even the girls," it just adds to the fact of it just symbolizing a child's innocence out of pure curiosity.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the second passage, I analyzed it to be Caulfield's wish for some things to remain the same in his life. I symbolized the glass cases to be a sort of protection agaisnt reality since Caulfield is somewhat stuck in his own world trying to do his own thing. I think we can all say Caulfield shines a negative light on almost everything meaning he is unhappy with the way some things have gone which is why I believe he wished for some things to stay away from the reality of changing. He says multiple times, "I mean, you'd be different in some way - I can't explain what I mean." but never goes in, which I analyzed to mean, he's probably changed too much and that was the last thing he wanted.
Regarding the passage about the Indian Squaw, I find that Holden’s description emphasizes the the novel’s theme of childhood and growing up. The children are naturally curious about the human body, and are satisfying their curiosity by taking a look for themselves. Holden's discussion of the innocent children elicits the idea the he hopes to save this innocence of the kids, he yearns to “catch” the children from falling into the realities of adulthood.
ReplyDeleteHolden appreciates the permanence of the exhibits at the Museum of Natural History because, unlike people, the displays never change. This constancy satisfies Holden's desire to stop time and remain in childhood. Holden, who has just been expelled from his fourth prep school, is constantly undergoing change both socially and academically. Holden, who fears adulthood, wants to stay a child and not undergo the change to adulthood that brings many more responsibilities along with it.
Although imagining a group of elementary school children looking down a mannequin's clothes is rather comedic, I believe it symbolizes the innocence of the children. The children don't look at the woman lustfully because they are still very young. However, they look at the woman as something different than themselves, as mentioned by Holden. They see the woman with curiosity towards that which is different from themselves. It might even show anticipation towards growing up. Once again the novel divides adulthood and childhood very evidently.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Eskimo man who wouldn't move, this seems to show Holden's struggle against growing up and entering the phony adult world. Holden even mentions something along the lines of putting his sister in a box so she would stay the same, stay innocent. Again, Holden shows his disposition towards the innocent side of the world, almost implying that he doesn't want to grow up; at least to not have his sister grow up, who is still far from being corrupted by the phoniness of adulthood.
Both passages deals with growing up into the beginning stages of adulthood. Holden's wishes he didn't have to grow up and wishes he could hold on to being a young curious child like those kids mentioned in the first passage.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, Holden deeply admires the museum as a whole because it never changes, it is trapped in time just as Holden wants to be. This leads to what Holden tells Phoebe he wants to be the catcher in the rye, he hopes to save children from going into adulthood and keep them from experiencing life without the essence of being a child.
-Mariana Velasco
As previously stated by a number of my peers, the passage found on page 121 regarding the squaw woman displayed at the museum in downtown New York City seems to reflect a theme of innocence and purity that is reemphasized throughout the novel. When the protagonist explains the reasons for which every child in attendance, of both genders, observes the exhibit with such fascination, it is as if he is trying to combat the belief that one sex is more evil and corrupt from the very beginning than the other. Instead, Holden suggests that at such a young age, men and women are no different from one another, but grow to be more contrasting as a result of the "unprincipled" society they live in. Furthermore, he goes on to voice his feelings concerning the museum itself, and how it stands as testament to the era of its conception for nothing has changed from the layout, to the architecture, to the showpieces themselves. In expressing his thoughts on the matter, there is a sense of nostalgia brought forth which prompts readers to consider how like the museum, there are aspects of our lives which never change as we do, avoiding any corruption or interference which would adversely affect their purity. In referencing a change in only the people who visit the museum, the main character seemingly establishes a metaphor for time and how with more of it, there is an inescapable series of consequences which alter the very essence of innocence in all people. Try as we may to think back to a time when cruelty and falseness had not yet encompassed our reality, no matter how much we reflect on past experiences, change is inevitable and will always prevent us from being who we once were.
ReplyDelete-Quentin Cruz-Boyer
Both of these passages are significant because they show the major themes of the book. The first passage about the Indian squaw shows how all of the younger children were intrigued at the squaw’s bosom. The author stated that both the young boys and girls would look at the squaw in order to clarify that the children weren’t looking at her because of some physical attraction, but instead because they are fascinated at her adult features. This shows how this passage is presenting the theme of adulthood since the children showed their desire to grow up by being interested in these adult features. The second passage, in which Holden describes the Eskimos, Holden shows his desire for stability, which is another theme in the book. Holden says that in the museum nothing changed except you. This demonstrates how Holden disapproves of the constant changes humans go through and how he wishes for the stability that the exhibits at the museum have.
ReplyDelete-Cynthia Rosas
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ReplyDeleteI think going to the museum for him meant change in life. He said that things did not change but the person did. This connects to the topic of growing up. I also think that Holden was scared of change, he did not like new things but rather liked doing the same things and going to the same old places. This idea also connects to the theme of growing up because growing up means trying new things and becoming more reaponsible, which is kind of what he was trying to do.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePreserving ones innocence seems to be the theme expressed throughout the novel. The two passages regarding the Indian squaw and the Eskimos are seemingly perfect examples of how despite the difference in gender, children display this view of curiosity and purity. Although one must accept the fact of growing up Holden seems to want to keep things the same and preserve the innocent mind of children as well as himself. Like the Carrousel Holden wanted to continue living but he wants to do it in a way that frees him from the phony adults. The children fascinated by the Indian squaw’s bosom did not see it with a sort of sexual attraction like Holden or any other adult might have but with a immaturity of simply seeing a woman's bosom exposed. For instance if a teacher in the third grade were to slip out a bad word in front of the class the children would be astonished while an adult would simply view it as a common use of vocabulary. Holden wants to be able to freeze time like the Eskimo and live in the time where one had no worries or expectations only innocence.
ReplyDelete-Gisselle Gonzalez
This significance of the first entry is rather obvious. I think it shows the curiosity of children of what makes adults so different from children. It is a feeling that we can all relate too. When we were kids, we always wondered what made adults, adults. We yearned to become an adult, in order to be more respected by other adults. Through this passage, we can see the theme of innocence. The kids desire to grow up, without knowing the actual responsibilities that come with it. Holden,now a young adult, observes this with ammusement, knowing the troubles that come with being an adult.
ReplyDeleteThe second passage reveals how Holden is feeling about his current situation. He states how much he loves the unchanging, still, environment of the museum. He says, "The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right there where it was." We know how messy Holden's life is. He just dropped out of college, and now he is completely lost in his direction of life. Especially in New York, things/people are constantly changing. Holden desires an environment where things are still, unchanging, and expected, due to how fast events are going for him in reality. The theme is this passage is the desire to get out of a fast paced, changing place.
The second passage with the Eskimo calls to the fact that as we get older, we make large personal changes, some we can control, some we cannot. I liked what Holden discussed here since he is clearly fearful of change, let alone getting older. It is actually one of the few moments I liked Holden Caulfield. But it’s when he says, “… I can’t explain what I mean. And even if I could, I’m not sure I’d feel like it.” (Chapter 16). I wish Holden had at least tried! I wanted to know if he gets nervous around emotions, hence the reason he did not explain what he meant, or he just didn’t feel like explaining it. I know he said he could not explain it, but I got the sense that he was too lazy to explain what he was trying to say.
ReplyDeleteThe initial passage is focusing on the theme of “coming of age”. Holden is depicting the young children as young and innocent. He understands that one day these kids are going to have to grow older and mature. In that process, their innocence will disappear. I wonder why Holden feels this way though. He criticizes just about everything possible, yet he is infatuated with the children. Why? Is it because his best times were when he was young? Maybe everything reminds him of his sister, and he doesn’t want anything bad to come upon Phoebe. He fears her maturity, maybe.
-Tanner Claudio
n the first passage Holden reminisces a moment with his classmates being curious little kids and wanting to see the squaw’s bosoms. Out of all the memories he could have remembered, he chose an immature one. That passage shows what type of person Holden is, a 16 year-old who hasn’t grown up yet. Holden’s characteristics contribute to the theme of this book which is the painfulness of growing up. As the reader, I could really tell that Holden is having difficulties growing up which is because he refuses to and is scared to.
ReplyDeleteIn the second passage, you can tell that Holden is indirectly telling the reader that he doesn’t like growing up. He says, “The only thing that would be different would be you” demonstrating that he hates how everything in the museum stays the same except yourself. Holden wants to stay a kid, he doesn’t want to grow up, which turns into the theme, growing up. Holden badly experiences the adult world after he left Pencey by himself. He smoked, drank, hired a prostitute, and went to clubs, which made him realize that the adult world is phony.
-Paola Priela
The passage of Holden describing the Indian Squaw woman bending over revealing her bosom making for him and his fellow classmates to sneak a peek displays how curious children are at a young age. The innocence of the children as they see an adults physicality demonstrates how children are curious with the idea of growing up and what they will look like when they get older. This passage connects to the book's theme of innocence and youthfulness. Holden battles with the uncertainty of adulthood and seems to want to remain young however be treated and viewed as an adult by others.
ReplyDeleteAlso in the second passage, Holden's description of the Eskimos and how he likes how everything in a museum stays the same again show's Holden's fear of growing up. He does not want to face changes in his life in fear of losing innocence and a sense of himself. Based on previous chapters I feel as though Holden does not have any adult figures in his life that he really looks up too or admires which is causing him to reject adulthood.
-Jasmine Simmons
The passage describing Holden and the other children's response to the bent over Indian Squaw woman draws back to a relevant theme throughout the novel, childhood and adolescent innocence. When Holden makes it known that all the kids, including the girls, peaked more attentively at the anatomy of the woman, we are able to gage that children are curious beings and in this instance are observing what they do not have or have not experienced as it demonstrates a fascination with adulthood. This is significant because it shows that Holden himself is intrigued by the idea of growing up and becoming of age much like the other children but it is seen that once he does reach a point of almost obtaining adulthood it is not what he'd bargained for at his young age.
ReplyDeleteThe passage about the Eskimo and how Holden likes how nothing about the museum changes demonstrates Holden's resistance toward change. Holden is at a point in his life where he's coming of age and adulthood can be scary. This gives off the idea that he misses his childhood and how things used to be. He desires an environment or a life where things are unchanging and stagnant. It seems that his entire life, Holden has dealt with sudden changes, like the death of his brother, Allie, I can only assume that a tragedy like such would drive him to a point where he became nostalgic of when things weren't hectic and nothing bad had occurred. He wants to freeze all the good things, because when things are going well and nothing changes, it's a memorable moment for Holden.
-Jayla Hudson
The first passage describing the squaw and the children peeking at the bosoms of the Indians gives an anecdotal example of the concept of childhood innocence. Salinger goes into great detail of Holden's experience with his young classmates in the museum to show that childlike behavior such as this is common between all kids, boys and girls. Kids of the age Salinger describes all have an innate sense of curiosity, coupled with a sense of naughtiness and innocence to sexuality. The trip makes an attempt to connect to the audience too, who may have been in similar situations in partaking in immature behavior like Holden and his class.
ReplyDeleteThe second passage meanwhile describing the stagnation of the Eskimo exhibit shows Holden's view and response towards change. Holden likes the fact that everything in the museum is left as it is, similar to his view on life as a whole. Holden in the novel is constantly battling coming of age and growing up. He at times refuses to take upon responsibilities expected of him at his age, other times taking measures drastically such as fantasizing living a hermit life away from society and their "phonies." He attempts to stay in the joyful bliss of childhood and attempts to never let such moments go.
When Holden describes the Indian squaw, I believe it depicts Holden’s coming of age as a kid. He now sees things more differently and expresses himself more sexually. He becomes more fascinated with women and their sexual features and grows more eager to make that transition into adulthood that promises more freedom and fulfillment. The theme of innocence is revealed by Holden’s wonder and fascination to what adulthood has in store for him and the wonders and happiness it will bring him. Yet, his description of the Eskimos and how everything in the museum didn’t change further reveals the depression and realization of how hard life can be entering adulthood. I feel as if Holden longs for the innocence his childhood brought him and finds comfort in the idea of how the museum would be exactly how it was before, nothing inside ever changing. I agree with Mackenzie in how Holden fears the transition into adulthood because of how people change and how they can become phonies. He longs for everything to be how it was as a child, easy and simple.
ReplyDelete-Celeste Lettieri
Being the Catcher in the Rye is Holden's dream, what does that mean? It means that Holden wants to protect the innocence of children. Throughout the book we see Holden’s love for kids especially his own younger siblings Phoebe and the late Allie. Now with this in mind it is easy to understand the importance of the museum to Holden, when he went as a child he and his classmates looked upon the female squaw’s bosom, not with sexual desire but with curiosity. As a teen, he has seen the perverseness of the world and is constantly trying to shield the youth from it. An example would be in chapter 25 page 221 and 222 Holden tried erasing the two curse words he saw that were written on Phoebe’s elementary school campus, “I thought how Phoebe and all the other little kids would see it, and how they’d wonder what the hell it meant, and then finally some dirty kid would tell them-cockeyed, naturally-what it meant, and how they’d all think about it and maybe even worry about it for a couple of days. I kept wanting to kill whoever’d written it.” In the second passage about the Eskimos, it represents how through all the changes he has gone through there is still one thing in his life that has stayed the same and that is the museum, he found relief in the stability of the museum.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden enters the museum he remember his own class trips when he was younger and focuses on how the way of life is frozen in the museum's exhibits. He makes remarks on how every time he went to the museum he felt that he had changed, while the museum itself had remained exactly the same. I feel that Holden finds the museum as a sense of comfort, that some things still do stay the same and not everything changes. He finds it as a sense of comfort because meanwhile while everything else is changing around him he still has a memory he can visit from his childhood that will always remain the same and the only thing that will be different when he visit will be him. Like Holden I too myself like when I can visit a certain place that I did often as a child and it will still be like I never left because it won't have been changed.
ReplyDelete-Kiyana Tejero
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ReplyDeleteIn the passage regarding the squaw, I agree with my classmates that Holden is trying to describe a child's innocence. Because they are merely children, their natural curiosity to "sneak a good look" at the bosom can not be perverted. Holden also points out that the girls would also look at it because, "they were only little kids and they didn't have any more bosom than we did." He is trying to convey the idea that at that age, boys are still pure and innocent and have not reached an age where things on a girls body will begin to stand out to them. Holden appreciates this innocence, because it symbolizes what it means to be a child in his eyes. Unlike how an adult is no longer innocent after being exposed to certain situations.
ReplyDeleteIn the passage regarding the museum, Holden views the museum as being frozen and remaining the same. This idea relates to Holden's refusal to step into adulthood and his desire to continue to be a child. Holden fears the idea of adulthood because he knows that everything will change and virtually nothing will remain the same as from his childhood. He will have to take responsibilities he did not have to worry about as a young boy. I believe that this refusal to step into adulthood is also the reason behind his failing in school and his neglect towards his education.
-Daniela Nolasco
I agree with my classmates that the entire "bosom" paragraph refers to the theme, in this case, coming-of-age. Actually, the entire museum serves as a metaphor for Holden's resentment of the changes that come with time. There is a feeling of consistency and continuity that Holden feels when reminiscing on class field trips to the museum; it also highlights an internal resistance to "change", as he states "the best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was." (121)
ReplyDeleteCoupled with his constant shifting of schools due to failing grades, it can be deduced that Holden is simply not able to adapt to the changing world, and finds solace in timelessness. Perhaps his frantic, unreasonable decisions (daydreaming about running away with Sally) are examples of resisting change, by running away from growing up.
-Andre Yee
The first passage focuses on the theme of coming of age, which is supported by the way Holden describes his classmates, especially the girls, looking at the Squaw woman’s “bosom”. The girls in his class would look at the Squaw women’s “bosom” because they know that their physical appearance would turn out to be like Squaw women in the museum as they grow up. The girls have a sense of curiosity towards to the Squaw women’s physical appearance and it is very common among the little ones these days. They look up to their role models and focus on the people who are older than them because they know that some day, it will happen to them. One day, they will grow up to be just like them. However, with Holden, he does not want to grow up and be a part of the adulthood that everyone is experiencing. In the second passage, Holden describes about Eskimos and how the museum always appears the same on any given time of any given day of any given year. This represents consistency and that is what Holden desires the most. He knows that teenagers, like himself, experience physical and mental change, which he scares him the most. He wants to have the same consistency that the museum has.
ReplyDelete-Mikayla Abille
The squaw women from the passage represents the traditional perspective of growing up. By that I am referring to the expectation that comes from the social norm. During the old times, Indian women were expected to grow up and become gatherers and weavers, they had no choice due to male dominance. This is the idea that Salinger wants to associate with the prep schools such as Pencey, where teens who attend them have aspirations to go to Ivy League schools- it is just the way things work. However, Holden fails to relate himself to that Indian women because his perspective is not a traditional one.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, Holden appreciates the Eskimos because at that point, his perspective on growing up is much different than the traditional one. He knows that he differs from society's expectations and thus his view on growing up is negative since he has yet to find assurance in the future. Since he is fearful of growing up, Holden chooses the easy path of avoiding reality and wants things to stay the same. So, even though the first passage conveys coming of age, that theme does not necessarily apply to Holden as it relates to the traditional sense. Holden is going through a different kind of growing up, a more modern one with unlimited expectations and not having a set future. Henceforth, to avoid reality (growing up), Holden prefers to think of things that are constant (Eskimos in the museum) in order to comfort his terrifying feeling of the future. In a sense, a theme of fear is more apt to Holden growing up.
-David Wilson
The passage about the Indian squaw seemingly relates to the theme of growing up. The children were interested in the woman because she had features that the kids were yet to obtain. Young children are typically jealous of others that have what they don’t, and they desire the things that only adults can possess, like a bosom. The kids now have a yearning to grow up quickly so they can acquire those adult perks, something Holden strongly opposes. The Eskimos in the second passage represent the childhood that Holden refuses to let go of. The museum exhibit never changes, which Caulfield perceives as the best thing about it. He simply does not want things to change, he does not want to grow up and enter the world of adulthood. As people change, they can end up hurting others close to them in the process. As Mackenzie stated before, the adults that Holden trusted ended up betraying him. But the museum will never hurt Holden because it will never change.
ReplyDelete-Ahren Aguinaldo
Before Holden enters the museum, we see the evident struggle he endures before with going inside. We see this when he admits, "Then a funny thing happened. When I got to the museum, all of a sudden I wouldn't have gone inside for a million bucks." When Holden is inside of the museum, readers can see he has a sense of stability and familiarity there. I think this is because the exhibits are never moved and he remembers as well as recognizes them. This stability that he finds in the museum seems to be something that he longs for in his life. Holden also seems to be unsettle with the fact that he goes back, he is different each time. This is seen when he says, "Nobody'd move...Nobody'd be different...The only thing that would be different would be you. Not that you'd be that much older or anything. It wouldn't be that exactly." Within this one visit to the museum, it has emanated his fear of change. This fear of change includes his fear of growing up. I think that his fear of change stems from the constant labeling and categorizing of people that time and change make it possible for him to change as well. I was able to observe that Holden does not favor unpredictability and wishes for stability and for time to be still, just like the museum. Holden realizes that no matter how much he wishes for no change, it is inevitable and it happens in one way or another. His desire for no change shows that he is in denial of the inescapable path to adulthood.
ReplyDelete-Reese McElmoyl
I believe these two passages correlate in that they define not only the very obvious literal definition of growing up, yet growing up internally, maturing, learning, being curious, educated, etc... Holden explains a memory of his class coming to the museum to visit, I recall doing similar education field trips intentional for learning and relating and applying whatever we were learning in the classroom to whatever else we learned in the museum.
ReplyDeleteThe squaw passage is not only the literal definition of growing up, yet the idea that the child's mind is open ans curious, and if it continues to feed off new things it only can grow bigger and more open, which is better than having a closed mind. I believe they looked out of curiosity and the longing to grow up, the exciting idea that one day you'll be an adult, fully developed.
As for the eskimo passage, I believe this is a more symbolic than literal paragraph. It is obvious that these eskimo statues/personas won't move because they are clearly fake. Holden is constantly experiencing change around him,from being used to sleeping in a dorm to going hotel to hotel, from laying in his bed to talking to prostitutes... Holden fears growing up and for this reason wants to preserve the innocence of children alike which is the reason I believe these passages correlate, the children in the previous passage are curious to grow up and experience so, yet Holden wants to stop the,. These eskimos don't change and Holden likes that. Holden is afraid of change because all it has caused for him is downfall and negativity, he also points out that when you'd visit this display, you would have changed too, and not regarding your age. Here I believe he references maturity, intelligence, and realization of reality overall... something the young kids in the squaw passage lacked.
After analyzing page 121 of the novel, I have to agree with most of what has been said before me. Mackenzie, Atheana, Lilliana, and others have all mentioned the idea that children are drawn to the idea of becoming adults and are therefore naturally curious about what qualifies a person as an adult. For children who are held by their parents' tight leash, the fantasy of growing up, gaining respect and freedom, and being different from how they are now is a very alluring prospect. They are innocent in the ways of how the world around them works, how people treat each other in adulthood, how fending for yourself can be a hard task. The lack of understanding in the way adulthood works, both the good and the bad, is what draws the children to the Squaw woman.
ReplyDeleteAs for the second passage, I also agree with the rest pf my peers in that Holden enjoys visiting the museums so much because it is one of few constants in his life. After everything he has been through in his young life - moving from school to school, losing his brother Allie - it is reasonable for him to seek something that never changes because the unpredictable events often occurring does not always have a good outcome.
-Sophia Dugan
I believe that as Holden describes the Indian squaw, Salinger is simply trying to further add onto his character, specifically how descriptive Holden is in his thoughts and recollections. Additionally, this portion of his visit to the hotel sort of forces the reader to wonder and generate interest on Holden's not so distant childhood. This can be observed when Holden uses words such as "you" in his memory of how he and all the other kids -even girls, would peek and the mannequin's bosom. This establishes a sense of nostalgia that seems to trail and surround Holden as he saunters through the museum.
ReplyDeleteHolden's commentary on the Eskimo mannequins serves a similar purpose, but does also serve in exploring a possible theme in the book. Holden describes how no matter how much time has passed, the mannequins in the museum will always stay the same, while the people observing them will always be different. This led me on to think the futility of time may be one of the key themes in the book. Holden does not clearly consider time as a resource that he is limited by throughout the book, but it is clear that reaching home before his parents receive news of his expulsion from Pencey is a goal. It may be possible that time is something that Holden is trying to get a grasp on, even though he may not realize it. Acting as if he is already an adult, Holden may not foresee the complications of adulthood that await him. In fact, rarely does he ever think about his distant future. This also leads me to agree with David Wilson in his response; that Holden is actually quite terrified of the future and growing up.
In agreement with Breana Barnes, one of the major themes in The Catcher in the Rye is innocence, or lack thereof. Holden's comment about the squaw woman's bosom is a reference to the innocence of his classmates when he was younger. They were not “sneaking a peek” to be cheeky, rather, they were just curious about the changing ways of the human body. In the same way, Holden has retained some of his innocence, although he has also experienced a lot of growing up. He is able to (mostly) survive on his own, in one of the most hectic cities in America. He attends a boys' boarding school away from his family and all familiarity. He drinks regularly (when he can). However, he is not fully familiar with the female body; he is a virgin, especially in comparison to some of his “more experienced” classmates. He has somewhat of an understanding of how relationships and feelings work as evidenced by his fondness for Jane and dates with Sally. He also stated previously that he believed that, if one truly has feelings for a girl, they should not “fool around with them”. As a teenager, if he were to visit the museum with his current classmates, they would sneak a peek at the woman's bosom for completely different reasons. Furthermore, as stated by Karl Horcasitas, including this passage was an effective way to add to Holden's character. Holden is thoughtful, and it is safe to say that his mind is not “dirty”; rather, it is analytical and reflective.
ReplyDeleteAll of the differences that Holden described – “you'd have an overcoat on,” “the kid that was your partner... got scarlet fever,” “you'd heard your mother and father having a terrific fight,” – are his own memories. This makes me wonder, when did Holden last visit the museum? Was it before his brother Allie passed? Before his brother D.B. Became a successful playwright? What exactly has changed since then? Holden's visit to the museum gives him nostalgia for how life used to be. He knows that things will always change, but he wishes there would be a way to preserve these cherished moments. He does not want to see his little sister Phoebe grow up, as she is the only person left whom he is close to. He expresses this on pg. 136, “I kept walking and walking, and I kept thinking about old Phoebe going to that museum on Saturdays the way I used to. I thought about how she'd see the same stuff I used to see, and how she'd be different every time she saw it. It didn't exactly depress me to think about it, but it didn't make me feel gay as hell, either. Certain things they should stay the way they are.” Holden wishes to preserve his sister's innocence. She is nearing the age when his younger brother Allie passed away, which may also explain his attachment to her.
- Zuri Smith
I must concur with my peers about the significance of the museum scene of the novel. When Holden began to recount this flashback at the Museum of Natural History from his childhood, I immediately knew that Salinger was trying to tell readers an important characteristic about Holden. Like the idea that Kyle Mapanao presented, I also believe that the purpose of the Indian squaw passage was to highlight the sense of childhood innocence within Holden, and even when many years has passed, he still has this innoncene within him. As Paola Priela points out, Holden chooses this distinct memory about the squaw's bosoms to hold onto as a part of his childhood. In my opinion, this shows readers that Holden still has an immature mindset. If he were to have truly matured, Holden would have chosen to leave out this memory, or chosen a different memory to tell the reader. This passage not only highlights Holden's innocence, but also the coming of his age. Throughout the novel, Holden describes the various sexual interactions he has had with other girls, including how he thought that some girls had great bodies, such as Sally. However, he recalls hat even the girl classmates were amazed with the squaw's breasts when he was younger. This depicts how time has passed since these times, and both the boy's and girl's are aware of eachother's bodies.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, after telling us about his childhood in the museum, Holden relates his past experience in the museum to how he perceived the museum coming back to it in the present. Holden mentions that, "Nobody'd be different. The only thing that would be different would be you." This is when Holden realizes himself that although he has had his share of immature memories, he also has grown up since then and recognizes that nothing in the museum has changed except himself.
-Jennifer Ma
In similar terms with what my peers have stated, Holden describes the children's innocence as they viewed the Indian squaw. With disillusionment and curiosity still prevalent at that age, he yet again mentions childhood-a repetitive factor seen in Holden, that emphasizes his hold on youth and his input on how life was like as child. Moreover, this viewpoint cues in on his attachment towards youthfulness and the pureness of childhood.
ReplyDeleteThe passage on Eskimos likewise proves his strong attachment. In describing the museum, Holden points out how he favors that nothing in the museum changes, despite the changes in each person every different time. Through this, Holden expresses his want for everything to stay the same, even as time passes by. The museum can be used in comparison to his way of keeping things the same way, similar to how he struggles to let go or grow up from the youthful qualities in life, and move on to maturity.
When children are young and innocent they don’t care about what is right or wrong. I feel that Holden´s comment about young children sneaking looks at the girl´s ¨Bosom¨ is just significance of kids curiosity of how they could look in the future and even if they don’t understand the situation for them is something funny to see people and how they grow up. For example, when we are kids we sometimes like to dress with our parents clothes because we like to see how in the future this could be us. Holden could have pointed this out because kids don’t care about society opinions and they live in their own bubble.
ReplyDeleteAs for the second passage, ¨nobody´d move¨ Holden likes to do keep things constant with no big changes, or at least he wants nothing to change. When Holden walked into the museum he started to noticed how everything was exactly the same and maybe he was not just talking about the exhibitions but he was also talking about himself and how he has not allowed himself to change and become someone he might hate to become.
-Carolina Estrada
What I find interesting about the second passage of the description of the Eskimos is what Hilden states about it. When Holden comments that nothing moves or is different, the only thing different is "you". I am surprise that he not use the word me instead of you. It is obvious that the comment is targeted towards him. Holden cannot confirm that he is talking about himself. It is almost as though he is surprised that after all that time he has not changed in his life for the better. In my opinion Holden views the world as the same as it always has making it an ugly world. While he is changing it was as though he did not want it to since nothing well was happening in his life.
ReplyDelete-Carola Cabral
The first passage represents how the children admired adulthood; the boys looked at the squaw making a blanket because that’s what they are going to be attracted to when they get older—women, and the girls looked because that’s what they were going to grow up as—a woman. The children look at adults and admire their grown up appearance and their ability to do “grown-up” tasks. I mean, who hasn’t at some point in their childhood wished to be grown up? When you are a child, you are filled with curiosity and the longing for fun experiences. The second paragraph, Holden expresses that the best part of the museum was that everything stayed the same but the person doesn’t. I doubt he meant that the person’s physical appearance changed, more like their thinking. I mean a child that went to the museum was filled with innocence, ignorance, and a desire to grow up; however, once that child grows up and comes back, they aren’t as naive as they were before. For example, as a child we were taught the sugar coated version of history, but as we move along school we realize that our history is raw. We start off as children looking through a museum longing to be an adult, and each time we come back a piece of our childlike innocence has been stripped away day by day until we’re adults looking through a museum wishing we were a child again. We go by a different day with new knowledge and experiences which doesn’t seem much of a difference but looking back each new thing you’ve done has shaped you into someone new. That’s why Holden wants to be a “catcher in the rye” so that he can save children from the disappointments of growing up and save them from the various expectation that they have to grow up into like he is expected to do.
ReplyDeleteThe passage about the Squaws relates to physically growing up. The children were so interested in the Squaws since it showed how girls will look when they grow up. Physical changes can be viewed as maturing to an adult and no longer being a child. Children believe that adulthood is a thing that can not come any sooner. To children being adults meant having the freedom to do anything without being scolded by your parents.
ReplyDeleteThe Eskimo passage expresses Holden desiring for things to stay exactly the same. Holden is at the point of his life where he has to transition from a child to an adult. He wants to stop time so that he could maintain his childhood and innocence. As a teenager myself, I have learned about the large amount of responsibilities that I will be facing. Because of that, I sometimes wished I was a child again, where the only I had to worry about was what cartoon I was going to watch and what snack I was going to eat when I get home. I think Holden is in a similar situation in the passage and throughout the novel. He does not want to become an adult and wants to keep things where they are.
Concerning the passage on the Indian squaw, youthful curiosity would is the apparent theme here. As children, we often admired adults for the characteristics (muscles and curves) that we had not yet possessed. I remember as a child I always looked forward to growing up and becoming AN ADULT and I tried my hardest to speed up the passage (playfully wearing up 6th grade and taking every opportunity I could to wear heels). So when Holden is describing the kids looking at the woman’s “bosom,” I understand that their curiosity is coming into play. It’s not just little boys being immature, but little girls being fascinated at the female attributes of an adult body.
ReplyDeleteIn the second passage, I would agree with most that he finds happiness in the fact that the Eskimos don’t move. They don’t grow up and I think that he wishes everyone could stay like that. He wants to preserve the purity and youth of those young kids and doesn’t want them to grow up, falling into the phoniness and reality of adolescence into adulthood. Holden experiences disappointment when he sees that people of his past have been sucked into the phony lifestyle, like old Sally.
We know that he admires Allie and Phoebe for the small portion innocence they represent in his life. I fear, however, how his attitudes might change when Phoebe grows up and will be forced to face the harsh realities of life.
-Renee Navarro
DeleteIt seems to me that the passage where Holden is describing the Indian squaw in the museum, refers to the innocence of little kids, and their aspiration to become adults. I agree with my peers that the passage reflect the interest of growing up. Some of the kids look up to the Indians and wonder if they will become like that when they are older. I think it is normal for kids to want to grow up so fast, since they admire adults and wish to become like them.
ReplyDeleteHowever, in the second passage, Holden’s point of view on growing up can be seen as pessimistic, since he definitely doesn’t want to become an adult and wishes for things to stay the same always. I find this thought a little immature since you can always miss your childhood memories, but life will keep on moving on, whether you like it or not. Holden has to become an adult some day but he is not ready to let go of his childish side, and I think that’s why he is having such negative ideas on adulthood.
-Paulina Quesada
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ReplyDeleteIn addition to what was said about how Holden clings to the idea of not growing older, I wondered why exactly he wanted that? It could be because his interpretations of adults being phony, which is one of his biggest aspects that he constantly identified as something he didn't want to associate himself with. He presents this reminiscent tone as he described how the museum stayed the same. I believe that Holden uses the idea of museums in comparison to his memories of his childhood and how he can look back at his memories of when he was younger and they won't change, only you will. You're age can change or maybe your beliefs or ideals may change, but the memories you have had in the past remain the same. I see this sort of comparison being a possibility due to Holden's animosity to his sister Phoebe which triggered his memory of his own experiences.
ReplyDelete-Kyle Maravillas
DeleteI agree with my peers that the passage where Holden is describing the indian squaw indicates the youth and their innocence. By Salinger including the quote “we all used to sneak a good look at it...because they were only little kids, and they didn't have any more bosoms than we did” he presents to the reader the curiosity that the children had about the female body. As a child, growing up is something that you wish could happen faster and this part of the story is quite relatable. The children are fascinated about how the body changes as you eventually grow older.
ReplyDeleteIn the second passage about the Eskimos the author says “Nobody'dmove...Nobody'd be different...The only thing that would be different would be you. Not that you'd be that much older or anything. It wouldn't be that exactly.” By this i think that Holden admires that the Eskimos don't grow old. No matter how long the Eskimos are there they continue to stay the same while those observing are changing. It helps show that Holden is afraid of adulthood and he cherishes the way that things are.
-Alexis Gaskin
As many of my peers have observed before me, Holden seems to take interest in the memory of the boys and girls admiring the squaw’s bosom as it were a sign of their immaturity at that point in comparison to the squaw and her fully developed body. The kids, including the girls, were all interested in the bosom because the girls had no cleavage yet either and thus they were interested in what an adult had that they did not. This had actually not quite occurred to me as a representation of the way children grow up and that they change as they grow older until I read some of my classmate’s posts. However, the excerpt detailing how nothing changes in the museum except you stuck out to me as a statement that symbolized Holden’s intense hope that things resist change. Holden took pleasure in knowing that the museum’s things would always be the same because he hated how everything was always changing. I found this ironic, however, when I considered how Holden always attempts to pose as older than he truly is. It is possible that his hate for people who are excited for a movie also stems from his hate for change because not only are they excited for something that will be coming in the future but they will also be using their time in a room while time passes them by outside without them being able to do anything about it. After considering how Holden dislikes change, the museum scene makes plenty of sense in the regard that maybe Holden wishes that only he could change.
ReplyDeleteHolden has been discussed to have a problem with alienation, this could stem into his hate of change because it is possible he wishes not to be left behind as things continue to change around him while he cannot keep up. This would also further explain the museum scene as he details how only the visitor changes, and maybe he likes it that way, with only him being the one changing. With only him progressing whiles everyone and everything else can just remain stagnant in the flow of time, progressing as if frozen in place.
The passage that describes Holden’s memories of viewing the Indian squaw exibit in the museum connects to two major themes: curiosity in sexuality, and, most importantly, a developing interest in growing up. Even though this novel was written in the 1950’s, there remains a known idea amongst children that looking at “private parts” (i.e. the squaw’s “bosom and all”) or even talking about it is completely indecent -- plus, if your parents find out, you would probably have to say goodbye to the light of day. With that note in mind, Holden’s sharing of this seemingly innocent curiosity that developing children have in maturation and sexuality presents the notion that children often relish in the moment of envisioning what they will be like as adults. That’s why today, many young girls and boys look to older figures in order to grasp a glimpse of what adulthood may be like for them in the future. While these themes are very flowery as they depict the purity and wonder of a child, there remains the lingering fear of letting go of the joys of childhood and youthfulness, which Holden seems to struggle with as shown by his appreciation for the fact that the museum would forever be the same as it was when you first saw it. “Certain things they should stay the way they are,” Holden comments shortly after describing the Eskimos. “You ought to be able to stick them in one of those big glass cases and just leave them alone” (Salinger 158). The underlying tone of longing in the quote reveals the continuous clash that Holden experiences throughout his life and especially in his teenage years between having to move on to adulthood (as seen in the first scene with the squaw) and wanting to maintain the childish, carefree elements of his youth (shown in his admiration toward the “big glass cases”, a symbol of preservance). As I recognized these similar, yet opposite themes through the metaphors in the passages, I began to make sense of the importance behind Holden’s idealized vision of a life that permitted him to preserve his youthfulness.
ReplyDeleteAfter analyzing the two passages inside the museum, it seems to me as if the two meanings if the passages contrast with one another. As the young girls stare curiously at the bosom of the Indian squaw, they are bewildered at the fact that that is what may become of them in their in future. As Mackenzie Spence has mentioned, it is not unusual for children to have interest in the adult world.
ReplyDeleteHowever while this scene looks into the future from a memory of the past, Holden in the scene with the Eskimos, wishes for the future not to come and for everything to remain still. Throughout the novel it becomes progressively more apparent that Holden wishes for things to remain as they are. For instance, when he learns that Stradlater spends time with Jane, he cannot bring himself to imagine Jane as a sexual person. At the moment he is unable to see Jane as more than the same girl who he would play chess with. It is not until he watches the carousel move around and around that he is able to imagine life as a revolving circle rather than a straight forward line that he feared so much. Once he breaks from this idea of preserving the world as it is he finally can become happy.
In the first passage where Holden was talking about the Indians i believe the theme displayed could be described as curiosity or more specifically curiosity killed the cat. the children were fascinated by the physical appearance of the Indians and took especial interest in the differences between them and the squaw. it could also be a theme of irony if we compare the situation with the kids in the museum to Holdens specifically. the children are intrigued and curious about the physical effect of adulthood and are not scared to inquire about it. while on the other hand Holden wants nothing to do with adulthood and in fact tries to avoid an impending future with more struggles and responsibility. so in that sense the theme could be seen as ironic that as a child he was curious about adults but as a grown up he avoids the idea of it. and the scene with the Eskimos just represents Holdens feelings of never wanting to move on and grow up for the fear of future. the Eskimos frozen in time represent his true desire for the innocence of a child and to stay ignorant in the face of adulthood problems. the scene just elaborates o his true feelings.
ReplyDeleteThe first passage was naturally humorous due to the innocent curiosity that these children have. When describing the Indian squaw Holden can remember a time when everyone was curious over the human body and that unanimous inquiry caused every child to be somewhat alike. Now that he is a young man that is pressured into having sexual experience or at least understanding it, he reminisces on simpler times. Being that his own roommate, Stradlater, was supposedly very experienced in woman and sex he might have felt lesser as a man.
ReplyDeleteWhen referring to the sameness of the museum he might be attributing the idea that it stays the same unlike people in his life. Or even certain situations that seem to be severely affecting his life. Events, such as, the death of his brother Allie, or the fact that he was expelled from four different schools can be evidence that his life does not have the best stability. This museum to him expresses a feeling that is constant and that may be comforting to him.
-Andrea Cruz
The second passage I wrote about in my journals. By mentioning the museum Holden is reminiscing about his past. Holden looking at the Eskimos and their actions brings him back to his childhood. For him the museum represents innocence and simpler times in his childhood when he was happy and his view of the world wasn't obstructed. The quote "Nobody'd move... Nobody'd be different. The only thing that would be different would be you" is significant because
ReplyDeleteit not only represents Holden's pure sense of a childhood and innocence but also because it represents Holden's unwillingness to grow up and confront his own problems. Holden is weirded out by the fact that he has changed but the museum has not but he continues to go back to the museum this means that he is unable to deal with real life and adulthood. Holden's admiration for the museum correlates with the theme of innocence and being lost.
In the second passage it is clear that Holden is afraid of the big change that's ahead of him. I know I am and I think it's fair to assume most of my peers are afraid of this change as well. We live in the comfort of childhood for so long and then all of a sudden we're supposed take on massive responsibilities and make important life decisions all by ourselves even though we're still ignorant, inexperienced children. Suddenly, we can't be frivolous and reckless and go on spontaneous adventures and have the luxury of going home once daddy's money runs out. We have to grow up because we can't stay behind the glass case forever, time and life move on no matter how hard we try to fight it. Holden, like most seniors, is in denial that the end of childhood is near and we must make the transition to adulthood soon. I think that this reveals that Holden may not be ready to grow up, he's too stubborn and immature to accept that he has to grow up and make sacrifices. In growing up, Holden maybe have to become a phony or a dopey guy even though he doesn't want to and we all have to do things we don't want to in order to grow up.
ReplyDeleteThe passage about the squaw likely represents childhood innocence. If the children's behavior were mimicked by adults, some may brand the adults as perverted or lustful. Because children were responsible for this behavior, others would view it as children being curious about adult human anatomy. Perhaps this is Holden's way of suggesting that being young allows one the freedom to live life without the harsh judgements of others.
ReplyDeleteI believe the eskimos represent Holden's desire to stop the effects of time. Unlike the statutes, Holden's body will change as time passes, rendering him "different." I believe that Holden envies the Eskimos and wishes he remained in the same state of your for all of eternity. This further reveals Holden's inability to accept the realities of life.
Like many of my peers have stated about the first passage, I also believe that the importance of it was to show the curiosity of the children. Purely innocent. As children, I do not believe that the boys generally took a peak at her bosom because they were extremely horny. More over, I assume it is because they have not seen a woman in such a position. The interest between both genders seemed to be equal for they view the squaw as a grown being, whether they think they'll grow into that shape or not. It is hard to explain what I interpreted from this passage, but I conclude that it was added in order to show the pureness of a child's mind. No intent to get something out of another, instead out of curiosity, they act.
ReplyDeleteAs for the second passage, I believe it is connected with the idea of how individuals grow as a person. I feel as if the Holden was getting at was the way you act and react, the way you think. You're not the same because of your age or what you look like, you're different because of the way you interpret things then and there. Also, by adding this passage after the first, it supplies a contrast between young and older minds.
-Carla Alipit Francisco
ReplyDeleteThe passage about the Indian squaw correlates with the theme of coming of age, as the children are intrigued with what they don't know, in this instance it’s the Indian squaw woman’s bosom. While growing up children are interested in learning new things, as many people feel that knowledge is equivalent to age. The transition between childhood and adulthood is challenging and children want to make this process as easy as possible, so learning more about adults and the world makes the transition easier because it’s not as difficult as going in knowing nothing. While Holden wants the children to stay innocent forever, he only knows this in retrospect, we don't know if Holden himself felt like this when he was young, as he doesn’t talk about his childhood.
In the second passage Holden describes the eskimos and said “Nobody’d move… Nobody’d be different… The only thing that would be different would be you. Not that you’d be much older or anything. It wouldn’t be that exactly.” I believe that the museum is a metaphor for the world never changing, but your perspective changing about the world as time goes on.
When Holden interacts with the children at the museum, and starts to realize that they share different views of the same thing, we can see the theme of maturity, and growing up. Observations of the squaw women, like my peers Atheana and Mackenzie said, connect to the fact that children often marvel at adults curiously asking themselves if they will end up like them one day, thinking ahead in the future. In addition, when Holden points out that everything is the same in the museum except for yourself, this can symbolize the world around us. And the fact that doesn't stop for anyone, no matter the circumstance they are under.
ReplyDeleteThe insight provided by Mariana is very interesting, because I saw Holden's aspiration to become the "catcher in the rye" differently at first. Now I see that his desire to catch people falling also connects to saving children from growing up, and changing their bold personalities.
-Cassandra H.
The first passage describing the Indian squaw follows the theme of growing up, like my peers have said above. The children looking at her bosom was purely out of innocent curiosity, they weren’t sexualizing her body since they were still too young to do that. They’re curious about the anatomy of the adult, even the girls since that’s what they have to look forward to. I wrote in one of my dialectical journal entries how ironic it is that when we are children we can’t wait to be adults because we think we’ll have all the freedom in the world when in reality we just have more responsibilities and the feeling of freedom diminishes. But when we’re children we have minimal responsibilities and like Nicolas Orcino said, we have the “freedom to live life without the harsh judgements of others”.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the shared thought that this museum scene is associated with innocence and youth. As Paola Ochoa said, the children look at squaw's bosom with curiosity of what their bodies might look like when they are older. A child naturally wants to explore and question the things they see, but above all they want to grow. Holden realizes that he is not able to return to those days of innocence and hopes that he can be "the catcher in the rye" he mentions to Phoebe in chapter 22. Holden stresses that nobody behind the glass cases would be different and "[t]he only thing that would be different would be
ReplyDeleteyou" even if the difference was minor. He does not want things to change, to lose their innocence, to become phonies. He sets high standards on society only to be disappointed by its phony nature (and he's the only one who can really define phony).
There's another interesting part in the page after, "I kept thinking about old Phoebe going to that museum on Saturdays the way I used to. I thought how she'd see the same stuff I used to see, and how she'd be different every time she saw it. It didn't exactly depress me to think about it, but it didn't make me feel gay as hell, either." Maybe Holden wants her sister to grow up, but could she do so without losing her innocence? Even if she did would Holden still regard her as a phony?
--Alan Contreras
Both passages are related to the theme of innocence. When Holden shares that everyone would sneak a peek at the bosoms he is giving us an idea of how little they knew and how curious they were. As a child everyone wants to be older, but it seems the second passage reveals that growing up is not always the best thing. Holden tells us that as he got older the museum would stay the same, but the only thing different would be the person visiting. I believe that Holden was not referring to his appearance, but the knowledge he had gained over the time he had not visited. As we grow older we learn more about our history and you no longer care about sneaking a peek at the bosoms, but what happened to the civilizations whose bosoms those belonged to. Holden feels he is mature, but in reality is still an innocent teenager.
ReplyDelete-Mat Fernandez
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ReplyDeleteThe scene with the squaw's bosom seems to represent both a sense of innocence and curiosity. The children are naturally curious to see the adult bosom, boys and girls alike. They do not know that this is not the right decision, because they are both physically and mentally immature, despite Holden's claims about being very mature for his age. All of the children are trying to take a peek into the world of adults, a world which they are soon transitioning into from the innocence of youth.
ReplyDeleteIn contrast, the second passage represents Holden's reluctance to become an adult. He wishes for his life to be like the Eskimos', unending tranquility and stagnation. Holden's teenage years are the transition between his treasured childhood and the adulthood he resents. Holden's rebelliousness does not belong in the adult world, and he knows this. He wishes to hold on to his immaturity for as long as possible, avoiding adult responsibility and impurity.
After analyzing these passages again I realized that they much more meaning than I had thought. As mentioned by my peers, when Holden includes the passage of the Squaw women it represents that the young kids are curious to know what they are looking at. In other words, it represents that they are curious to know what it is like be in that state of adulthood. Young kids tend to be the more curious when it comes to being adults and aspiring to grow older. Which is what Holden depicts when he mentions, "they were only little kids and they didn't have any more bosom than we did".
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, I also agree with my classmates on Holden sharing his thoughts about not wanting to grow up when he describes the part in which the Eskimos are standing still as well as everything else in the museum. I agree with the fact that he is feeling nostalgia when reminiscing about his past. I do not think he is scared to go into adulthood but I do believe as if he is not quite sure how to approach it which is why he constantly remembers past memories that cause some sort of joy.
-Mariana Simmons
In the first passage you want us to focus on I believe it represents growing up. These children are amazed with the Squaw because they are looking at a glimpse of what they will grow up to be when they are women. Many children are fascinated to know how they will grow up to be physically. Its weird because children are wanting to grow up and adults want to stop growing old in age. In a child's perspective the movement of going from a child to an adult is a for of freedom and independence.
ReplyDeleteThe importance to the second passage is that Holden is always wanting to stay a teenager. He enjoys the museum because everything around him stays the same except him. He is scared of being judged, that is the reason he enjoys the museum, when people don't change they can't be judged. He has a fear of growing up and having all these responsibilities.
-Briana Nieves
There are reoccurring patterns throughout the novel in which Holden is placed in settings or situations that reveal significance in what Salinger is striving to convey to the readers. Prior to these passages, Holden describes what any grade school kid would go through on a museum field trip where they stand in partners and are restrained from touching the exhibits. In the first passage with the Indian squaw, Holden's descriptions of his memories of the students sneaking a look at the Indian wife reveal an immature state of mind that the youth generally has. The response the kids have to the squaw's bosom is common among young people both then and now. Also, in terms of book themes, the passage considers how Holden is conveying that he believes he put this childish behavior behind him, but is still revealing a slight sense of immaturity through it.
ReplyDeleteHolden in the second passage is observing an eskimo exhibit in which he changes the mood of the setting. He described a bleak sort of exhibit with the stuffed birds and the one hole the eskimo fished out of. The significance of this passage is that it contrasts the setting of the Indian squaw where the young children brighten the exhibit with their giggling at the bosom with a boring and unchanged ice exhibit. Holden describes this particular exhibit with a different attitude and even describes the Indian squaw as the same as always. These two scenes reveal what could be a possible theme of growing up in life or in Holden's life. Salinger's elaborate language through Holden's mind and narration makes it easier as the reader to understand what is going through our protagonist's mind as he ventures through on this journey.
-Leiana Lepule
The passage where Holden states that the children were staring at the bosom reveals that despite being young, children will always be interested in what they don't have. More specifically, it signifies that children tend to be immature when it comes to sexual things or situations. The young girls staring at the squaw could be that they want to grow up and look like her, while the boys could just be showing curiosity and interest.
ReplyDeleteThe second passage, where Holden says "Nobody'd move...Nobody'd be different...The only thing that would be different would be you," shows that Holden wants a world that is unchaining and predicable. It suggests that Holden fears adulthood, because it is filled with unpredictable situations that one cannot control. Maybe Holden wants to be able to dictate and control his own life, but adulthood would hinder his ability to do so. The Eskimos in the Museum of Natural History remain the same every time Holden visits them, yet he continues to grow up and change. After Allie's death, I believe that Holden is always on edge and is afraid of what could potentially happen to him and others that he loves, such as Phoebe. Wanting to be the "catcher in the rye" and being able to save children from falling off the cliff into adulthood, Holden would be able to live a simple life full of innocence. But we all know that is unrealistic and impossible to achieve.
-Meagan Phillips
The first passage is significant in the grand scheme of the novel because it portrays an common phenomena concerning women. Holden states that everyone, including the girls, looks at the bosoom of the indian women because at this point they didn't have anymore bossom than they did. I think this is symbolism for the way and role women are supposed to act and be seen. At the time when he was a child, there were no judgements being passed on women or other little girls because at this point, holden was not being taught to treat women a certain way. Holden and all the other children, including the girls, were not yet fully aware of the gender roles and the system set up which ultimately pays women a lesser value for themselves.
ReplyDeleteThe second passage is significant because I find that it relates to the ducks that Holden so often ponders about. Like i pointed out in my other post regarding the symbolism of ducks within the novel, several monumental events have happened to Holden. Things that were both very traumatic and life-changing. To deal with this, I feel as though Holden turns to the likes of the world to try to find hope of life continuing on in some way, shape, or form. The natural History Museum is a physical representation of such a thing as he states that no matter how different he is from the last time he walked through the doors, the museum remains the same. The Eskimo is still fishing and the Indian woman is still bending over. This fact helps to remind Holden that his problems are miniscule in the grand scheme of things and that life does continue, just as the ducks do after a harsh winter.
Holden has trouble trying to find himself because he does not know what adulthood is like. Holden is very childish and does stuff that adults would not do. For example when he says ''even the girls, because they were only little kids'' i can interpret this as very sexism because he wants to show how both men and women are equal since the girls ''didn't even have more bosoms than we did.'' Holden has proven to have no respect towards women and repetitively makes jokes about them. When he refers to the Eskimos i think that he is trying to say how the only one who has changed is him because everything in the museum stays exactly the same, you can visit it hundred times and it wont change. However, Holden is starting to see changes in his behavior and he wishes he would have stayed being the same.
ReplyDelete-ayline ruelas
These passages remind me of this recurring theme which is the transition into adulthood from childhood. In the first passage, I think Holden was trying to get at the fact that those little girls were curious as to “what the stores had in stock for them” in the future. For the 2nd passage, it’s a little different because it symbolizes the permanency of some things and also the change in some people. The models all stayed the same every time they would visit, but they themselves would change just a bit. It’s like a comparison of how much you’ve changed with the models in the museum as a reference. They are forever unchanging while you grow up and go through many changes and it is with this contrast that reveals the theme of transition into adulthood.
ReplyDelete-Antonio Robledo
In my opinion I think that the Indians present the reoccurring theme of innocence and curiosity. Since Holden and his young peers had not experienced adolescence yet it is only natural to stare at the non-moving figures in wonder what will happen to them or who will look the same in the future. Youth also don’t seem to have as much of a filter when it comes to staring at such things. I also gather that children also don’t to seem to be as discreet when it comes to looking at inappropriate objects because they don't fully understand or think about the corrupt objects afterwards. As for the second passage, it builds upon the previous passage. Just as I said before as you grow so do your opinions and perspectives. I suspect that Holden is trying to connect childhood to the transition into adulthood. Just like you grow, your mind grows, life changes and so does your situations. People who may have lived in the laps of luxury could be on the street, the effects and demands of the war could've changed your home life forever, and just as Holden states, you would be a different you. Holden lost his brother, his older brother moved away and he’s been kicked out of several schools; he is no longer the same boy he was all those years ago.
ReplyDelete-Caitlin Jensen
The passage with the squaw women refers to the recurring theme of youth and innocence. Although Holden often makes ridiculous claims about himself such as being a "sex maniac" or "big for his age," I think that this actually represents Holden's attempts to compensate for the fact that he's not as mature as he sometimes makes out to be. Let's refer back to Holden's "sex maniac" comment:
ReplyDeleteHe says to trust him and that he's really into that "sexy" stuff. But really, think about it. The guy's a 17 year old virgin who didn't have sex with the prostitute he paid for because he really just wanted someone to talk to.
Now, does this sound like a sex maniac to you?
Absolutely not.
Although he'd like to be more mature, Holden is really just a naïve young man who is still very much innocent.
A second aspect to this theme is Holden's desire to preserve the innocence of children. Unlike peers and elders, Holden really like kids. He appreciates how they act according to how things really are (plain and simple; no sugar), and the fact that they often have no shame and aren't embarased if they need to button up their pants in public. They are positively genuine, and are 100% not phonies. I think that the fact that he wants to protect children's innocence, is the reason why he wants to be "the catcher in the rye." He wants to catch them from falling off the cliff, because whilst they're still on the field of rye, they are still innocent.
The passage about the Eskimos represents the theme of sadness and the unwillingness to let go of the past. Allie's death is a huge influence as to why Holden is so distant and depressed. Holden loves his brother, and that's okay, but like Phoebe says, Holden needs to find new, and preferrably living things to take interest in because the dead are gone. Holden is stuck in some fantasy where things are okay because nothing really changes -everything would still be there when he left and came back, and this way maybe Allie could have still lived. However it is just a fantasy. And Phoebe is right: He needs to let go.
DeleteAll of my peers have brought out various good points, many that I agree with. The Indian squaw passage is a symbol of youth eager robe come adults. The young girls look on to the bosom because it represents what they will have to face one day, maturity, not just physically but mentally.
ReplyDeleteThe Eskimo passage is a stellar example of what this book is all about: the fear of growing up. Holden just wishes he could stop the clock, and not have to face adulthood.
I think my peers and I can all relate to these passages. When we were younger and first entered high school, we were ready to take on these challenges maturity was bound to give us. We couldn't wait to get out of the house and become our own person. We were so ready to become an adult and finally be who we truly are.
But now, as our senior year begins, I believe we are all realizing what growing up actually means. And for most of us, I believe we put on this façade of being ready to take on the world, but in reality, we are just as frightened as Holden. We don't know what will become of us, or where we will end up. But that's the beauty of it, isn't it? We go wherever the wind takes us, and hope for the best.
After a careful analyzation of page 121 I agree with several of my peers about the fact that the passage of the Indian squaw woman has something significant to do with the children’s fascination over what it will become of them in the future. The curious factor that the children have before reaching the adolescence age for both girls and boys portrays their innocence when they were little and how it starts to fade away as the grow up and experience firsthand the real world. There is also a connection being made with the Indian room because the way it is showed is always the same whereas the children described who visit are the ones that change. The passage in the novel about the Eskimos demonstrates the frozen appeal made by Holden himself. Since Holden likes to judge others, he judges the Eskimos but they don’t judge him at all. It shows what type of world that Holden himself wants to live in, it shows he wants to live a more calm life that a life full of surprises such as the sudden death of hiss brother Allie which occurred a couple years ago.
ReplyDelete-Diego Arriola
Personally, this particular passage was my favorite part of the novel because it memorably plays on a major theme. As Holden recounts his experiences at the Natural History Museum, he describes a few of the exhibits that he enjoyed as a child, but it is the impact the exhibits had on the narrator and his peers that are significant. The children's response Indian squaw, for instance seems to represent the fascination one has as a child of maturing into an adult. In regards to the squaw, Holden asserts that she was "sort of bending over, and you could see her bosom and all. We all used to sneak a look at it, even the girls" (Salinger 134). This, in part, reveals an additional aspect of maturing, which is the curiosity and fascination children hold regarding the seemingly peculiar changes in the human body during adolescence.
ReplyDeleteHolden relates to the reader that he "loved that damn museum" (134) because "everything always stayed right where it was" (135). Throughout the course of the novel, Holden journeys through many new and familiar experiences, but as a result of his exasperation of transitioning into adulthood, it seems his ultimate wish is to freeze time and remain as a child. This is demonstrated in the passage as Holden wishes he could live somewhere like the museum, where everything remains constant and unchanging. Ultimately, this section of the text relates to the major theme of loss of innocence while becoming an adult, one thing Holden unconsciously dreads.
-Nicole Isabelle
The significance of these two passages on page 121 is that of the books main them of growing up and the innocence of children. I agree with my peers that the first passage that describes the Indian squaw represents a child's aspiration to grow up and be an adult. The first passage also shown the innocence of a child as both boys and girls were look at the squaw that was weaving the basket.while the the second passage expresses the the changes in a persons life. Salinger does this by comparing the museum that never changes to the small that changes that happened to you, whether it just be what you're wearing or who you're with something has changed.
ReplyDelete-David Valentin
Upon reading the two passages Mr. Rodriguez gave us to analyze, i would agree with my peers on how the Squaw woman symbolizes youth innocence and curiosity. As a child, it is instinct to be curious about the nature of things. As Holden says, "we all used to sneak a good look at it, even the girls", i would say this shows the curiosity of children as to how they might look later in the future. As i said, curiosity is a part of growing up, and girls would be just as curious about their bodies as boys would be about their own. I would also say that this passage connects to the theme of growing up. In previous entries, us students have been assigned to analyze Holden's frustrating transition between child and adult. After reading this passage, it seems to me that Holden is still curious about many things, one thing involving the opposite sex and their anatomy.
ReplyDeleteThe second passage to analyze is about the eskimo. Holden basically describes that the museum is a place where everything stays the same. No matter how many years go by, the figures in the glass casings would still be there and it would seem as if they didn't age. I agree with my peers in which Holden seems to want to stay a kid, and fears growing up. Another thing that caught my eye is when holden says, "The only thing that would be different would be you." This statement made me refer back to Mr. Rodriguez's Alienation entry because in the quote it seems that Holden believes he is different from everyone else. And when he begins to list things that would make you "be different in some way". And as my peers have stated, i also believe this is Holden's moment of depression toward his brother Allie. I believe Holden says all this because he is still grieving over the loss of his brother and misses their childhood together, which is why the museum is such an important setting in the novel.
I think when Holden discusses the Indian squaw, and how everyone is looking at her bosom it shows a form of maturity. Not in the sense that they are making better choices but that are becoming older and losing their innocence Holden tries so hard to avoid. The boys are growing up and becoming more interested in females and their bodies. Maybe during this period it was frowned upon to think about women like that but I don’t doubt many men thought about women in a very sexualized manner.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden begins to discuss how the Eskimos at the museum it brings me back to a point I made in the paragraph above. Holden has tried so hard to fight against change through this story. The fact that this Eskimo at the museum represents the same old thing over and over, Holden enjoys and finds a problem with himself because of it. When I think of Holden trying to fight change I think of the metaphor, “time cannot be bought” because you can’t buy time in life just like you can’t fight change in life, it will happen. I find it interesting how Holden goes om his mental crusade against many aspects of life that he just cannot fight or change.
-Joseph Doumbia
When Holden describes the children looking at the Indian squaw, it represents the curiosity and innocence of the children towards maturing and growing up. Even the girls were interested, since they might have wanted to see what they would become later in life. During this time of their life, the males might have been slowly growing more interested in females. It represents a time before the current events in the story when Holden wasn't actually thinking of his future or growing up. It also might represent a nostalgic memory of Holden's where he didn't have to worry about being alienated and going to school and instead just play around like a child.
ReplyDeleteThe mention of the Eskimos could represent the point I previously made about being a child. Holden probably doesn't want to accept that he has to mature and grow up. He yearns for the old days when he was younger. I get the feeling that he wants to be a kid again, and his way of coping with that is refusing to grow up and live in the real world. The museum constantly stays the same, in contrast to how people are always changing and growing. I can personally relate to this, especially when I go back to places I've been to in the past like Holden did. I get a feeling of sadness from Holden's mention of the museum staying the same, which I can definitely relate to.
Emily Chan
The woman bending over symbolizes women in his society. They do not get much respect, and even young children have it embedded in their brains, even the little girls. They view women as something sexual, and I guess only good for that because he is talking about her behind and how the little girls' are not as big as hers.
ReplyDeleteThe scene where he walked by the Eskimos is significant because it shows how Holden does not like change. He does not like the unknown. He would rather keep things as is than change. Meaning, he does not want to grow up, therefore he clings to his innocence as much as possible because growing up means changing, and changing is not an option for Holden.
- Jemima Subaran