Dear AP students:
First, let me remark on Holden Caulfield's
discussion of Hamlet on page 117. We will eventually read Hamlet next
spring. In Hamlet, we will indeed find another mixed up young man. Hamlet
mourns his dead father, while Holden mourns his brother. But the
character of Hamlet is older...not a young teen. In the movie he is played by
the great British actor Laurence Olivier, who was 32 at the time. And
Hamlet is a prince (not just some rich preppy) which is why he seemd to act
like a general to Holden. I find it interesting that Salinger mentioned
Hamlet in this book. It's as if Salinger was making clear to readers that his
character of Holden Caulfield was as significant a literary character as
Hamlet. And maybe his is!!! He is at least the 20th century
equivalent.
Second, let's talk about Holden's frequent
references to "husbands" in this part of the book. On page 123
he talks about the girls he is watching and how many of them will eventually
get married to "dopey guys" who will do nothing more than talk about
cars and how much mileage they get, or guys that are mean or childish.
Then on the very next page, he happens to mention that he had the urge to marry
Sally.
My question is ...is he mocking himself in
doing so? Is he saying he expects to be on of those
"dopey" guys when he grows up? Or am I reading too much into
this passage?
How about on page 132 when he suggests to Sally that
they leave New York? He makes the addtional suggestion that they get
married. Why does she bring up marriage?
And what about her reaction? She says
"we're practically children."
And why does he refer to her as "old
Sally"? Is that a term of endearment or affection?
Isn't
Holden such a madman?
I do not necessarily think that Holden is mocking himself when talks about “dopey guys” marrying women. Although he does contradict himself once more when he urges Sally to marry him, I do not think he intentionally does so to mock himself, although he may be doing so unintentionally. In this scene, Holden urges Sally to marry him so that they could run away together and start a new life. Sally responds and contrasts Holden with a more realistic point of view as she claims that his idea was ridiculous because “[they were] practically children.” This shows how Sally, unlike Holden, understood and accepted their status in the real world. However, Holden is the opposite in that he creates an imaginary/idealistic world for himself instead of facing the reality the world has to offer.
ReplyDeleteInstead of primarily mocking himself, I believe Holden mentions the idea of marriage and “running away” to demonstrate his fear in growing up and facing conflicts in life. Later in the scene, Sally claimed that they should wait till Holden finished college. Holden replies by describing a scene that would hypothetically occur after he finished college. He states, “‘I said no, there wouldn’t be marvelous places to go to after I went to college and all. Open your ears. It’d be entirely different. We’d have to go downstairs in elevators with suitcases and stuff. We’d have to phone up everybody and tell ‘em good-by and send ‘em postcards from hotels and all. I’d be working in some office, making a lot of dough…It’d wouldn’t be the same at all’” (Chapter 17, pages 147-148). His descriptions are focused on a business-like environment as he utilized phrases such as “suitcases and stuff,” “working in cabs,” and “reading newspapers.” This description not only functions to describe a possible future but also to show an aspect of adulthood. Finishing school and beginning a career usually implies the beginning stages of growing up. Holden’s reluctance to find himself in a business-like environment in the future thus implies that he cherishes childhood innocence and fears the idea of growing up. Thus, Holden’s idea of leaving New York and marrying Sally serve to demonstrate that he would rather “escape” the conflicts and hardships in the real world.
-Abigail Zaratan
I must say that Abigail Zaratan's post displays exactly the same sentiments that I was thinking. As we all know, Holden Caulfield is an exceptionally conflicted sixteen year old boy who has complex relationships with young women. Not to mention, he makes numerous rash decisions throughout the entire novel. Holden's biggest fear is growing up and conforming to society along with all the "phonies". Despite the fact that he does not seem to quite connect with Sally Hayes, he proposes that they leave New York to go out West to live in a cabin. He does not think much of it at all. Likewise, I do not believe that he is deliberately mocking himself. Although Holden finds himself in and out of love with Sally from one moment to the next, he is merely in love with the idea of her. He ultimately regrets everything he says to her and his depression only worsens. Although Holden desperately wants and needs companionship, his absurd behavior seems to hinder this and conclusively results in alienation.
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ReplyDeleteLike Abigail's has commented I too think Holden is not mocking himself intentionally however i do feel as if Holden's remarks about the dopey guys that the girl would grow up to marry is some sort of pessimist acknowledgement of the eventual maturation into the adult world which he finds "depressing" part of this is exemplified in the way that Holden mentions the museum and the glass cases how they preserve and hold the objects within "Certain things should stay the way they are. You ought to be able to stick them in one of those big glass cases and just leave them alone. i know that's impossible,but its too bad anyway."(pg 158) Holden is talking about more than just museum displays and is metaphorically speaking about the way that he views childhood innocence and the transition into the adult world. Holden just wants to freeze time just like those display cases and prevent the children from growing into a world of cruel adulthood that he even acknowledges too must be eventually faced despite his wishes. In reference to his desire to "run away" with Sally i see like the comment above that It displays Holden's desire to escape and not have to face the real world problems of adulthood wanting to break the Vicious cycle of time through his idealized vision of happiness and beauty in human contact yet he too is faced with harsh reality when sally mentions they are "Just children" even though That's exactly what Holden wants to preserve through their escape.
ReplyDelete-Victor Naranjo
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ReplyDeleteI do not believe that Holden is mocking himself when he gets the urge to marry Sally. I have noticed that Holden automatically assumes that a guy is "dopey" if he is with a pretty girl. This may stem from Holden's jealousy because he actually wants to become intimate with someone. Holden makes fun of these guys because he envies what they have. It would be silly if Holden actually saw them as dopey because he secretly wants to be like them. All of Holden's negativity towards these guys stems from his own jealousy.
ReplyDeleteOn page 132, I could sense that Holden has a lot going on internally. He is an emotional roller coaster. He spontaneously asks Sally to spend the rest of her life with him, to which she replies they are "practically children." I believe that Holden makes this proposal to somehow escape reality. He is afraid to grow up. He thinks that running away with Sally will make everything better in his own mind. This fear of adulthood results in Holden making crazy plans with a girl he is not in love with.
-Justin Bleisch
Just as Victor mentioned, I was also able to pick up on Holdens' remark concerning his love for the fact that "Nobody'd move. You could go back there a hundred times... [and] nobody'd be different"(120) in museums. This really did say a number about Holden and his fear of the inevitable future ahead. I find it hard to understand how he would live the life that he strives towards, yet there still is this sympathy towards him. The tough childhood that he was forced to undergo involving the death of his brother and his inability to fit in in school has forced him to think this way. However, although he urges to "run away," I do believe that somewhere inside him he recognizes the inevitable nature of his situation, hence his inquiry about marriage, something that requires settling down and building up a life from the foundation that education, a career, and everyday societal activities require.
ReplyDeleteOn a separate note, I feel like he attaches "old" to her name because of the mindset that she already has, one that is not meant for a free spirit like himself. Most would think twice when offered such a bold and unrealistic reality, and most would follow up with such fantasy with an ultimate no. Holden fails to understand what it takes to live the life that he wants nor does he understand that others have their own direction in said life which is why he speaks of Sally in the way that he does.
I believe that when Holden mentions the way girls would marry men who wouldn't be good to them and then quickly mentions how he would want to marry Sally is not so much him insulting himself, it's him taking the challenge of not becoming like those men. Holden wants to marry Sally, not only out of love, but to prove to himself that he is not one of those "dopey men" who only talk about cars and the mileage they get. I sometimes feel this way when I find myself doing something that many people have done before me, I want to do it bigger and better than ever before, I also want to do it my own way, and I think this is how Holden feels about marriage.
ReplyDeleteIn agreement with my colleagues, I believe that Holden is simply being his usual pessimistic self when he discusses how girls tend to run off with “dopey guys”. In regards to the Sally comment and marriage, I think he says it in surprise. I get the feeling like he told her to run away with him by accident, because of how attractive she looked. He clearly did not expect her to be so striking, which caused him to act the way he did. I mean he even admits how crazy he is upon recalling the event!
ReplyDeleteWhen I read the Hamlet intersession by Holden, I was intrigued how much he seemed to care about the play, despite his real hatred of the theater/movies. It demonstrates that even though Holden seems to not like going to see plays or movies, he still pays attention, for whatever reason, but likely he has nothing better to do. I think this optimizes Holden, because he has no really passion in life and appears to be heavily lost in a “phony” and mature world that he does not care much about. He criticizes everything and I think he would much rather live in a much more simple world. Even though I have not read Hamlet (and I am eager to begin), I believe that Salinger would deliberately input the Hamlet reference, mostly to resemble Holden’s character. It makes me curious, are there other references Salinger is attempting to make in the coming areas of the book? Or did he allude to media earlier in the novel that I missed? It is something to be wary of as we read…
-Tanner Claudio
I agree with my peers that Holden speaking of the "dopey guys" who girls will eventually marry is simply him being his negative and pessimistic self. It is apparent throughout the novel that Holden is capable of finding something wrong with essentially anyone or anything, and I believe that him describing the type of guys that girls usually end up marrying is him doing just that. I also believe that Holden was not quite mocking himself when he said that he wanted to marry Sally. I think that he was simply shocked by how nice she looked when he first saw her. He even stated in the passage that he did not really like her and he just had the sudden urge to marry her. I believe it is rather apparent that Holden does not think he will grow up to be one of those "dopey guys" as the novel is about how he is different from everyone else in this past society.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the question about Holden asking Sally to run away with him, I agree with my peers that this is Holden's attempt to run away from the nearing reality of adulthood. However, I didn't think too much about Holden asking Sally to marry him. I simply thought it was him trying to convince her to go with him. But when Sally refused and said that they were "practically children," I thought that this was a way of setting Holden apart from his peers even more because they have accepted the reality while Holden is still trying to escape from it.
-Megan Vu
I believe there are many different factors that could have caused Holden to impulsively ask Sally to marry him. Like my peers, I believe it was mostly Holden trying to escape the reality of adulthood in order to live his ideal life. When Holden visits the museum he describes how it was appealing to him because it always stayed the same, which implied he feared change. However, I believe this idea of consistency applied to more than the museum and instead to his ideal life in which there is no change within the transition from childhood to adulthood. Since marriage is often viewed as an event that marks being an adult, I believe Holden was making an intent to marry at a young age in order to be defined as an adult while continuing to live the life of a child. This is implied when Holden describes how he plans to live leisurely until his money runs out and he is forced to find a job. This idea of living leisurely and without a secure plan would cause him to continue living his current life in which he is traveling around the town with no plans and a fixed amount of money. However, Sally responds that adulthood requires a stable lifestyle that requires going to college and having a secure job, which is much different from what Holden thinks is ideal. Holden then responds to call Sally an “old bore” to compare her to an elderly figure that has just justified that his (Holden’s) idea of living day by day is irrational.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, Sally being asked to marry Holden could have been a result of Holden analyzing that attractive women usually marry “dopey guys”. Like my peers, I do not believe he is mocking himself but instead making himself feel superior to them. He initiates to marry Sally in order to break this stereotype to prove to that he is capable of marrying an attractive woman. Both of these factors however return into Holden proposing plans that only benefit him which justifies he is selfish.
-Jazzlyn Aviles
Holden's pessimism is apparent when he speaks of the "dopey guys" whom all females will marry, just like what my fellow peers stated above. Holden constantly proves to readers that he is not the typical teenage boy in his society at the time, so it can be inferred that he was not planning on becoming one of those "dopey guys" that he described. This action of asking Sally to marry him was a very rash decision, and he even admitted that he blurted it out without thinking it through all the way. In addition, I think Holden was just in love with the idea of being with Sally and having a life away from reality with her, rather than actually being in love with her. I think Holden says he is in love with her merely for his physical attraction to her. As much as I admire Holden's desire to be himself and stand out from the crowd, I do not agree with his decision to ask for Sally's hand in marriage. I don't necessarily think that Holden was mocking himself when he asked Sally to marry him, but more so it was his way of finding an alternative to face his parents and/or reality.
ReplyDeleteI didn't put much thought to why Holden referred to Sally as "Old Sally", but Allan Dizon's opinion for why he does this is interesting and one that I did not think of. However, we must also pay attention to the fact that he not only uses the term, "old", for Sally, but he also uses it for his sister, Phoebe. This term of endearment may indicate that Holden is fond of that person, or gets along with them.
-Catalina Isip
Along with my peers, I believe Caulfield talking down on other men is just him showing his feeling of superiority over them and not so much of him mocking them. Not only does it show his superiority but while I was reading I also picked up on Caulfield's alienation showing because he mentions how the usual guys are during his time and since he talks down on them, he also separates himself from them making himself more alienated.
ReplyDeleteRegarding his suggestion of Sally running away and marrying him, I also believe it's him trying to escape from reality and his life (which he is completely unhappy with) here but then get's snapped back into reality when Sally replies with, "we're both practically children." She continues to question/doubt his suggestion which lead to Caulfield getting irritated with her like when he says, "I was beginning to hate her, in a way." I think Caulfield was simply shocked by how attractive Sally showed up to be so he had a sudden urge to bring up marriage even with no intention of feeling the way one should in a marriage.
When referring to the significance of the main character of this novel in comparison to that of Hamlet with regards to literature, there are several similarities which suggest that the two are alike in their difficult journey to discover themselves and in their dissimilar personalities from everyone around them. I believe that this is the reason why Holden continuously mocks what he thinks to be men of unsatisfactory character or idiotic thought process in that because he seemingly has a higher standard of values when it comes to the sincerity with which people conduct themselves, he does not agree with what appears to be most women in their choice of men. Nevertheless, we see a repeated sense of hypocrisy in the protagonist's own treatment of women, especially Sally Hayes who he refers to as "Old Sally," as if to say that she has always been and always will be an alternate option should he fail to find true love. Strangely enough, Holden does at one point acknowledge feelings that he truly does have for Sally in Chapter 17 by suggesting that they both run away to Vermont where they could both live a happy life together as man and wife, going as far as to tell her that he loves and claiming that he meant what he said in that moment. Unfortunately, due to his inability to confront Jane Gallagher in my mind, and express to her his feelings of love and affection, he maintains an envious mentality, jealous of men he regards as lesser than himself who act so falsely and yet are able to steal the hearts of women he cares so deeply about. Additionally, because of an incessant need to project a certain level of maturity, I think that Holden constantly ponders the idea of marriage because he does not believe that he will ever be able to find his soulmate and subsequently retains a bitter, pessimistic view concerning the notion of love which seemingly carries over to his opinion of most women.
ReplyDelete-Quentin Cruz-Boyer
When Holden speaks of "dopey guys" I first thought that he meant the phony guys that are white and go to prep schools and become rich later in life. Like my peers, I also did not think that he was mocking himself. However, since our protagonist constantly criticizes such guys, I figured that he would not hesitate to also call them dopey. But I may be wrong. Caulfield possibly thinks that guys who do nothing but talk about cars and mileage are just another part of the society that he does not approve of, or even fit into. I think that he is just continuing his pattern of being pessimistic and critical of everything and everyone around him.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, about the conversation with Sally Hayes on marriage, I think that Holden was obviously not thinking about reality for a reason. It was mentioned above that he may be trying to avoid the realities of future occurrences. To add to that, I also think that he just wants to build his own world with his own society that he approves of. It is correct that Sally's response indicated that she was thinking of the future more than our narrator was. He just wants to do his own thing, which refers back to the teenagers in our generation, who always search for ways to do what they want, their way. I feel as if Holden dislikes the world he lives in, and wants to make one of his own.
-Negin Mohtashemian
Holden really is such a madman. I don't think he intended to contradict himself in the two instances where he makes fun of marriage and shortly afterwards proposes it. I think it's merely in Holden's character to only live in the present moment, shown by his seeming disregard of any consequences or repercussions his actions may have. He doesn't even bat an eye at the thought of running away with a girl he can't even tolerate, so he goes and blurts it all out without even considering all the factors that a normal person would. Holden's flip-flopping nature is just a part of his eccentric personality. I don't think there was too much deeper meaning in his self contradiction. He even admits to the fact that the whole idea was actually crazy just a minute after suggesting it. This childish and impulsive behavior by Holden reveals the side of Holden that hasn't grown up, his innocence and naivety. Sally points out that they're both still pretty much children, and i found that line rather funny in a self-aware type of way. Holden's childish idea of running away with Old Sally is shot down because they're both children. That killed me.
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ReplyDeleteI agree with my peers that Holden’s negativity can be seen when talks about the “dopey “ guys that all girls seem to eventually marry. Holden is unique in the sense that he wants himself to be known as someone who does not abide by the usual social standards given to society in that era. I believe that this is why he decides to ask for Sally’s hand in marriage in an impromptu fashion. I agree with Catalina when she says that Holden is not really in love with Sally, but rather he does it because he enjoys the idea of being able to divert reality. I feel that Holden was not thinking properly when he proposed the declaration of marriage. Instead he just wanted to find a way to avoid reality by diverting his attention. Also, I believed this also was a symbol of childhood and its immaturity. This rash decision revealed the childlike tendencies that Holden still has. Sally on the other hand seems to be more mature in that she knows that they are both too young for marriage. Therefore, she turns down the offer.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden calls Sally “Old Sally”, because maybe he believes her ways to be old fashioned. Holden is always trying to overcome the social norms and defy rules. Sally is unlike that. Sally follows the rules and is almost the polar opposite of Holden. She does not wish to challenge society or make a new place for herself. Like some of my peers, I have taken that Holden also uses the term “old” for Phoebe. I am still indecisive whether or not term is used for endearment, as most of my peers have stated, or whether it is because like Sally, Phoebe also does not wish to defy social standards and accepts her place in society.
-Vinnie Widjaja
Holden mourns about his dead brother Allie which can be related to the Hamlet. Some of Holden's actions can be explained due to his brother dying at such young age and Holden having to deal with his loss. I have not read the hamlet but i can predict that Salinger addressed this novel to establish Holden's character by giving him quailed of mournful and pessimistic.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden references Husbands and the desire for marriage it is very ironic. On page 123 when he is watching the girls and saying they will eventually marry “dopey guys”, which are similar to todays boys in how all they care about is cars and style unlike other mature boys who would care about raising a family and loving there wife very much. Immediately when he sees sally he says “The funny part is, I felt like marrying her the minute i saw her. I'm crazy. I didn't even like her much, and yet all of sudden i felt like I was in love with her and wanted to marry her. I swear to God I'm crazy. I admit it.”(162) He wanted to marry her yet he criticized the desire of marriage. As there on a date he seems to judge Sally and the readers can tell he does not really love her. He suggest they should run away together and get married nut she says they are practically children and she wants him to finish college first. I believe the both of them got carried away and started fantasizing a life that could not happen. Holden was already thinking of a place they could stay and ho they would live off when Holden gets a job.
Holden may be calling Sally “old” due to there long history they have had together. Also, like my peer Vinnie has stated it could mean, since she follows all the rules that can difference them both leading to a problem in there relationship due to the acceptance in sally following social standards.
As others said, I don't think Holden is mocking himself with everything regarding marriage and the "dopey guys". Holden is just being his pessimistic self and refers to them like that because it is obvious he dislikes those men. Although he makes fun of marriage, and then asks Sally to marry him I don't think he intended to do that. I think that he asked Sally to marry him because he wanted to escape and live his ideal life, just like others pointed out. He talks about marrying Sally and going to live in a little house in Vermont by the forest where they would have kids and teach them how to read and write. I feel that Holden is imagining his perfect life because he fears change. He wants to avoid the life he is living right now and live his life how he really wants to.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that him referring to Sally as "old" is meant as a bad connotation. I think that it's his way of endearment to her. He also says the same about his little sister Phoebe and similarly feels the same endearment.
To me, Holden's marriage proposal to Sally, as Vinnie mentioned, is an obvious sign of his immaturity, and highlights that fact that he is truly a young man struggling to find himself. Sally's mention of them being children also confirms the theme of growing up and illustrates to readers that although Holden uses adult language, not forget that he is still a young boy.The theme of self identity can also be seen in this seen as Holden comments that these girls will all marry "dopey guys" and then turns around and asks Sally to marry him. Its seems that through this act, Holden is trying to identify himself, or possible prove that he is or is not, a "dopey guy". Holden's seeming superiority to his peers could also be seen as insecurity, and maybe these "dopey guys" are who he is trying to fit in with, and his proposal, accepted or not would be conformation to his social standing. As for Holden's use of the term "old" when describing Sally could be as my peer Alexa has mentioned, a sign of endearment, however it also could be contradiction her comment of them being only children, and symbolizing is desire not only to grow up, but also be accepted.
ReplyDelete- Janelle Stradford
I agree with the previous posts made by my peers that Holden was not necessarily mocking himself in the scene where he talks about "dopey guys" but is rather just being his pessimistic self. Right before he talks about those "dopey guys" on page 123, he states "Girls with their legs crossed, girls with their legs not crossed, girls with terrific legs, girls with lousy legs, girls that look like swell girls, girls that looked like they'd be bitches.." This just proves that Holden is just being his usual self, making judgments about everyone he encounters. In regards to when he asks Sally to marry him, I was not surprised. Holden does many things out of impulse and how he is feeling at the moment, and this was just another example of that. I believe he just wants to run away with Sally to escape the harsh realities of his approaching adulthood. Sally responded in a very practical manner, pointing out that they were both very young and would not make it out in Vermont without an education or a steady job.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Allan's response to the question of why he refers to Sally as "Old Sally" which is that she has a more mature mindset and is more conventional in her actions. I do believe it is a term of endearment as he does call his little sister Phoebe, who he is very fond of, "Old Phoebe". I do also think that attaching the term "Old" to their names has to do with the fact that they are both not rebels and are very conforming to society, unlike himself.
-Atheana Lopez
I think that when Holden asked Sally to leave New York with him and marry him, he didn't exactly mean it, he is a teenager and he got caught up in the moment and just started saying all those things to her, and I think he did it because he wanted to see how she would react, proving that he's really immature. Sally's reaction was reasonable, when she said that they were practically children, I think she reminded Holden about their reality and the seriousness of the situation, which he didn't like.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden talks about those "Dopey guys" that most girls would eventually marry on page 123, like most of my classmates, I agree in that Holden was simply being negative, and was making those comments because he could not see himself in the future settling down with a girl and having a "typical life" that he was expected to, especially in the 1950s, additionally, I think he made that comment because he is an insecure person and he had trouble maintaining relationships or even friendships with girls in the past, and criticizing others was his way of venting.
As we have discussed before, Holden has a cynical view of others which is why I think he says that many of the girls he is watching will get married to "dopey" guys. I believe deep down Holden envies these "dopey" guys who will get married to these girls. However, I truly believe that it makes him sad that these girls will eventually marry these types of guys because Holden sees them as "mean and childish." I do believe that Holden was mocking himself when he said that he suddenly had the urge to marry Sally because he ironically says on page 162 that, "The funny part is I felt like marrying her the minute I saw her... I didn't even like her much, and yet all of a sudden I felt like I was in love with her and wanted to marry her." However, I don't think that he is completely associating himself directly with the other "dopey" guys because he consciously sees himself better than them.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden suggests that Sally and him leave New York and get married, I imagined Holden's mind racing and him spitting out whatever he thought. Sally and Holden kept cutting each other off when trying to speak, and I feel like Holden's mind was all over the place. I agree with my peers that Holden just said all of that to Sally because he was trying to escape reality. The funny thing, though, is that Holden said he "meant it when I asked her."
-Shalin Nirmal
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ReplyDeleteI don’t think that Holden is mocking himself when he asked sally to marry him. Yes we know that Holden likes to talk badly about phony boys and they are the ones that do all this phony stuff like getting married, but knowing Holden and how he has this impulses when he just likes to say random stuff or stuff he is feeling we know that either it could just be an impulse or maybe he really meant it. Now talking about the conversation between Holden and Sally I feel that he just said he wanted to marry her because deep down he knew that Sally would not agree and would say something to bring back Holden from his fantasy were they could get married and he could forget about everything and everyone. He just wants to do as he says and to not look back, the funny part is that every time he escapes he comes closer and closer to his past. “Old Sally” when I was reading this it made me think that maybe he liked the idea of the old sally the one who was more carefree and who was not afraid of the world and by saying that maybe he could bring her back to who he wants her to be. Holden is noticing that over time people change and even if they have not changed completely they still change sometimes for better, I feel like Holden is not trying to change himself he is trying to change everyone else around him.
ReplyDelete-Carolina Estrada
I do not believe that Holden is mockin himslef when he depicts those guys as "dopey". I think that Holden is just being himself in the sense that he is making fun of other people, considering that is what he is most popular for doing so. I also feel as though when Holden thinks about that kind of stuff he would consider any guy to be "dopey" as long as they are not him. Although he may also appear as mocking himself when he asks Sally about leaving, it actually is not because I felt as thought he said it in the heat of the moment and said anything that came to mind. He also brought the idea of himself and Sally getting married because he wants to change Sally back to the way that he liked her for. Sally's reaction was kind of expected becasuse someone that is aound their age can't just leave without any source of help. I also agree with the idea that Holden is trying to escape reality because life was not going in his favor at the time. When he calls Sally "old Sally" it is indeed an edearment because he says things like that towards his sister as well. I believe that Holden can indeed appear as a madman because he tries to control those around him.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden envy those guys because they have their life figured out. He criticized them but then he was kind of acting like one of them. I also believe that he was in an urge to grow up and get married because of how confused he was at the time. He also asked Sally to go away with him even though he did not like her. This showed how desperate he was. I believe that Holden being so desperate and depressed made him so angry which led him to criticized other people and acting so crazy.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with that peers that Holden talks about the "dopey" guys, but more so to make himself seem like a better man. I feel as though he talked about marrying Sally obviously not because he loves her, which he clearly states but more so to escape reality to really make him seem like he would not become a "dopey" guy. Although it may look as though he is mocking himself because he makes fun of these men then right after goes into talking about marriage with Sally. If you notice they way he describes these men and they way he describes where he would take Sally and how they would lives there lives is completely different, like escaping the norms of reality in their society. To address Holden calling Sally "Old Sally' I noticed that he only does this towards the women he cares about like Jane and his sister Phoebe. Although he may not say that he does not love Sally he still cares for her and I feel as though he does this out of respect and affection.
ReplyDelete-Yvette Macias
As most of my peers have stated, I believe Holden is just continuing his usual judgemental and stereotypial personality when judging the future husbands. In terms of him wanting to marry Sally, I don't think Holden is implying he is going to be one of those dopey guys, but rather that he can be a better husband who doesn't worry about cars or unimportant stuff like that.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to calling Sally "old Sally" I've noticed he has called people old more than once. For example "old Spencer" (which makes sense considering Spencer's age) and then theres "old Luce" who is not old at all, as well as the headmaster's daughter "Old Selma Thurmer" I tried connecting these characters wondering why they are all addressed as "old" The most I can think is that he addresses characters as old to show that they do not mean much to him when they interact. They are not necessarily on his bad list but they do not mean much to him. Because it is evident that the characters that do have some importance like Phoebe and Jane aren't described as "old" when he addresses them.
There are many aspects in this story that shows Hamlet and Holden are very much alike (not to mention that their names start with the same letter!). The two young men were devastated by a significant death in their lives, Hamlet's being his father and Holden's being his younger brother. After the death of their close ones, the two becomes severely pessimistic and mentions death quite often. Hamlet has his famous "To be or not to be," and Holden specifically mentions Hamlet in his thoughts concerning death. I believe it is adequate to call Holden a 20th century version of Hamlet.
ReplyDeleteTo answer the second part, Holden is showing the mixed-up, confused side of himself by mocking the other "dopey" boys, then making a connections between himself and them. He does not want to admit that he is like the other men following the mainstream, normal boys; however, he cannot but acknowledge the fact that he has the same desires and wishes to have the life considered to be ideal by the society.
The reason why she says, "We are practically children," is definitely because she did not think about marriage yet, and she especially did not expect it to be with Holden. This feeling of hesitance probably caused the devastation Holden felt following her reaction. Sally most likely had other plans, and an early marriage with Holden was probably not one that she dreamed of.
I too believe that Holden is not mocking himself when he asked Sally to marry him. However I do believe that having spent such time with Sally for the past couple of days, Holden created this fantasy of being able to run away with her and get married. I don't think he did this because he really wanted to marry her though I feel as if he did this because he wants to escape his world of reality as much as he can. Like Jazzy said earlier when he Holden visited the museum earlier he liked how everything stayed the same and nothing changed. Then when Sally says no and she says to him "We are practically children." Holden reacts with an outburst calling her "stupid'. I don't think he actually meant it but he does say "I was beginning to hate her in a way." I feel he said this because she had ruined his "plan" of them running away together living in some secluded place getting married. I also feel that Holden not only fears change but fears the though of being "lonely" he quotes that he is lonely quite often throughout the novel. Adding too whenever Holden sees a nice looking girl and she's with a guy Holden automatically categorizes the guy as being "dopey". He critics them because its a sense of a pride that he is and that if a girl is with another guy that is not Holden he is automatically "dopey". In a way I feel that Sally not only told Holden no because they were just children but perhaps maybe she saw him as a "dopey" guy herself.
ReplyDelete- Kiyana Tejero
He does have a very mocking attitude as seen by how he acts like he knows how someone's life will end up like. Although his purpose isn't to mock himself, he indirectly ends up making fun of himself. In the passage on pg 123, Holden describes the dopey guys as guys who are mean, boring, sore and childish over small things. However, from what we've noticed, Holden exhibits at least 3 of these traits. He is very mean as he makes fun of people before even actually meeting them, such as how much he calls Ivy League students phony. His mean nature is shown by how he's always making fun of others. Furthermore, his behavior of horsing around and trying to make people mad is childish, and when his friends tell him to stop, he gets all sore and hurt. In a sense, Holden calls himself dopey without realizing it. He mocks others to relieve himself of his own flaws in a sense.
ReplyDeleteFor the passage on 132, Holden, while revealing his very unrealistic plan to move to Massachusetts, brings up marriage, in my opinion, to illustrate the possibilities of Sally staying with him. He wants to persuade Sally how amazing his plan is. Sally's reaction is just what'd you'd expect, frustrated. Her reaction is very truthful and realistic. She tells him that simply moving there just won't work, considering they're barely grown adults, and don't even have a way of livelihood yet. Through this passage Holden again exhibits traits of a child, ambitious yet unknowing of the actual execution of a plan. In this sense he acts like a dopey guy himself, while Sally is the girl he describes as pretty.
I honestly don't know why he calls her old Sally. But I don't think it is an affectionate term. I think it's more like a label, since they haven't seen each other in such a long time.
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ReplyDeleteWhen reading this section of the book, i was so confused and shocked that Holden would bring up marriage to Sally. They're young, he barely knows her, and it was so abrupt. i agree that Holden is a madman. He keeps doing and saying things that don't make much sense to me or that appear to come out of nowhere. i think he unintentionally mocked himself when stating he wanted to marry Sally after feeling bad for the girls that will end up married to "dopey guys". he could have brought up the marriage idea later on in the book when his comment had passed, but he said it right after his initial comment, and i thought that was weird. he could have mocked himself, inclining that he is like those "dopey guys", or he could be saying he is one of the few guys that isn't like that; that hes different.
ReplyDeletei think he brought up marriage with Sally because it was in the moment. he doesn't keep his feelings or thoughts to himself, and he was feeling the idea of running away and getting married, so he said it. as i expected, Sally didn't think much of the idea. like she said, they were just kids. there wasn't much they could do and they had practically no money. as to the term "Old Sally", i didn't think much of it. Holden is already weird to me. interesting, but weird. So i didn't think much of his use of "Old Sally". it was just what he called Sally.
When reading this section of the book, i was so confused and shocked that Holden would bring up marriage to Sally. They're young, he barely knows her, and it was so abrupt. i agree that Holden is a madman. He keeps doing and saying things that don't make much sense to me or that appear to come out of nowhere. i think he unintentionally mocked himself when stating he wanted to marry Sally after feeling bad for the girls that will end up married to "dopey guys". he could have brought up the marriage idea later on in the book when his comment had passed, but he said it right after his initial comment, and i thought that was weird. he could have mocked himself, inclining that he is like those "dopey guys", or he could be saying he is one of the few guys that isn't like that; that hes different.
ReplyDeletei think he brought up marriage with Sally because it was in the moment. he doesn't keep his feelings or thoughts to himself, and he was feeling the idea of running away and getting married, so he said it. as i expected, Sally didn't think much of the idea. like she said, they were just kids. there wasn't much they could do and they had practically no money. as to the term "Old Sally", i didn't think much of it. Holden is already weird to me. interesting, but weird. So i didn't think much of his use of "Old Sally". it was just what he called Sally.
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ReplyDeleteI agree greatly with Abigail when she mentions how Holden only feels like marrying Sally because he believes they can run away together and leave all the phoniness behind. He mocks the girls who continue their life and marry dopey guys, the ones who are preoccupied into cars, golf, and just plain phony things. After his dopey guy rant, he contradicts himself saying he wants to marry Sally when he sees her, even though he “didn’t like her very much”. I don’t necessarily believe he is mocking himself but he attempts to make a connection to someone that he wants to create an ideal life with.
ReplyDeleteOn page 132, he brings up marriage and running away together so he can attempt to escape the fear he has in entering adulthood and the troubles it brings. In his conversation with Sally, he fantasizes about this whole great life they can have, without the pressure of being an adult, so they both can live happy and free. Yet, Sally sees his childish immaturity and realizes the reality that we can never escape adulthood. Holden hates the phoniness adulthood brings and never wants to escape childhood, yet at some point in our lives, we all need to grow up and move on. Holden doesn’t propose the idea of marriage because he is in love, rather he fears change.
-Celeste Lettieri
Because of Holden’s rebellious personality, he always judges the average joe. On page 160, Holden states that most girls “would probably marry dopey guys”. He goes on to identify these soon to be married men as the stereotypical preppy boys that only care about their cars and winning a game of gulf. However, he then considers marrying Sally. Holden is not mocking himself and is not foreshadowing that he will turn into one of those guys when he grows older. Ultimately, I believe Holden is urged to believe the norms of society. But because he is a rebellious and unique individual, he is stuck between believing what society believes and what he wants to believe. In other words, he wants to accept himself into culture but he’s too judgmental and immature.
ReplyDeleteOn page 171, Holden jumps to conclusions and wants to run away with Sally because it’s his way of running away from what changes adulthood will bring. Sally reacts harshly to Holden’s proposal and disagrees. Holden then refers to her as “old Sally” which I believe is his way of saying that Sally is old-fashioned and follows the proper way of growing into adulthood instead of Holden’s thought of moving to Massachusetts and living in a cabin.
-Jocelynn Padilla
I agree with Jocelynn in every aspect, however, I do not think that "he wants to accept himself into a culture but he's too judgmental and immature." I do agree that he is judgmental and immature, but I do not think that he wants to fit himself into a society that he constantly criticizes. On page 125, Holden admits to saying that he loved Sally while they "horsed around" in the cab. He then says, "It was a lie, of course, but the thing is, I meant it when I said it. I'm crazy. I swear to God I am." In my opinion, Holden is desperately trying to not be apart of the phoniness around him which might have led him to say things compulsively. On page 132, he compulsively proposes to leave New York with Sally as well as the idea of getting married. When Sally, in short, declines this offer, Holden tells her that waiting after college would make it different. He would work in an office, making a substantial amount of money, and that just everything would not be the same. The way I saw this encounter was that after they were talking about boys' schools and how Holden criticizes them, he thought of an idea to separate himself from those he was talking about. That is why I think that he speaks compulsively, because he does not want to end up like those he despises, leaving him to be a hypocrite. As to Sally's reaction, I think it plays into part of Holden's altering level of maturity. For example, when he lied to the woman on the train, as well as lying to Sunny about his age, we see that he tries to act older than his age. By him suggesting to leave New York, get married, and finding a job, I think he believed that he had some level of maturity but I also think that he does not want to be alone while embarks on that path. Which is why I think he asked Sally to go with him. Even Holden said that even if she had said yes, he still wouldn't have taken her. We also see that he says the same thing from earlier when he said he loved her. At the end of the chapter, Holden says, "The terrible part, though, is that I meant it when I asked her. That's the terrible part. I swear to God I'm a madman." Another thing to notice is that many times throughout the book, Holden says that he is a "madman" or "crazy." It first seemed like he was joking about himself, like self-deprecation, however, the more he says it, it seems he is trying to convince the reader that he is actually a madman.
ReplyDelete-Reese McElmoyl
I don’t believe Holden mocks himself when he talks about getting married and becoming a dopey guy. Holden considers himself different and better than the “rest of the guys.” He feels he has more value to offer to females and is the complete opposite of a “dopey guy.” He does kind of contradict himself talking about marrying Sally in a couple of pages later because he always calls other men in the story “dopey guys,” when they are with pretty girls. I think Mr. Rodriguez may be reading a little bit too far into this passage.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Holden making the suggestion about marriage to Sally is a sign of him being too afraid to grow up. Holden cannot be older than 18 at this time period and getting married at this time period to someone at this time and going through to trials and tribulations of life, will make it easier to for Holden to deal with his insecurities about growing up. Sally denies his offer because maybe she has just begun to face the realities of what growing up is like or just doesn’t want to spend the rest of her life as an item with Holden. I believe that when Holden refers to Sally as a “Old Sally,” it could be considered a term of endearment or just a way to recall someone you have known well in your past. I have heard adults use that term when referring to an old friend from their childhood that they shared good memories with. Since this story is merely a recollection of memories from Holden’s past when he makes a couple of references to himself as a “madman” he might now be convinced in present day while he is re-telling memories from his past that he is really a madman.
-Joseph Doumbia
Holden naturally makes fun of the "ideal" way of growing up, go to college, get married, start a family. He feels bad for the girls because he knows that they will follow in their families footsteps and marry young to a person that might not be their soulmate, and just someone that seems fit to settle down with and follow the typical steps of adult life. Also, during that time women were expected to marry a rich man who will provide for them and give her and their future family a good life. Say perhaps, they were more interested in marrying someone else who was not financially stable, it would be seen as practical or acceptable.
ReplyDeleteHolden asks Sally to marry him and run away in such a rushed and unusual way because he is trying to escape the reality of adulthood. As Holden describes his ideal way of living to Sally, he was "getting excited as hell." In Holden's perfect world, he and Sally would simply run away and he would have a job waiting for him and they would be able to take care of themselves. This only proves how unaware Holden is of the real world and refuses to accept the idea that some things just cannot be done no matter how badly you want it to happen. Sally reminds him that they "are practically children" and the chances that his plan would even work are extremely slim. It is ironic how even though Holden sees Sally as being an airhead, she is the one that is trying to knock some sense into him.
-Daniela Nolasco
When Holden seemingly mocks himself with his opinions on marriage, I do not see it as intentional as much as it is Holden's self-entitlement. Claiming that "women will get married to dopey guys", he obviously does not categorize himself as a "dopey guy", instead implying that it is easy to see himself as a separate case. Whether or not this perception is correct, I've gotten used to the feeling that Holden sees himself as special, or at the center of the universe; his thoughts are either self-absorbed or cynical, while his external interactions (Maurice, Hotel hopping) show his inability to hide the fact that he is ultimately youthful and immature.
ReplyDeleteThis ties into the discussion regarding his idea to run away with Sally- it is hilariously irrational. Although he maintains an aggressive, "I know what I'm doing tone" throughout the journal, his plan highlights the cracks in his practicality, showcasing his aforementioned immature qualities. At heart, he is young, afraid to grow up, and is running out of options. He is known to have an active imagination, imagining himself in movies (Edmont hotel movie "scene"), yet there is only so much solace one can find through daydreams. He fails to accept the fact that reality will eventually catch up to him as well as coming-of-age, and his imagination is one of his temporary getaway tools.
-Andre Yee
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhen first reading about how Holden constantly sees women getting married to "dopey guys" and then to almost immediately marry and start a new life with Sally, initially confused me, as what most of what Holden says. However I came to realize that it was Holden voicing his motive on impulse as Holden wanted to show Sally his alternative than going back to school. While I don't think Holden meant that every girl marries a "dopey guy", it is ironic for hime to considered marrying Sally right after analyzing what type person a married man is. It also might be due, as what some of my peers have said earlier, Holden does not simply categorize himself as everyone else he criticizes about.
ReplyDeleteHis rather impulsive offer to Sally is also reminiscent of Holden's constant breaks from reality, where he imagines what his ideal situation would be like. It was interesting to see Holden actually be vocal about his motives for once, but it does show how immature Holden when it comes to matters such as these. This was especially made apparent when Holden gets frustrated with Sally's reaction, actually be logical telling him "we're both practically children".
-Daniel R. Diaz
I want to continue a discussion made on a different post because it seems to tie into the idea of Holden being a madman. A reoccurring topic on the forum post #7 Holden and Females, where Holden is an indecisive and and confused decision maker. Saying things he might not truly mean is the readers job to interpret into their own understanding of what Holden may believe. He claims that there are guys who all they do in life is pay attention to cars and feel sore if you beat them in a game. Maybe he mentions guys like this to help emphasize that he's not like these guys, making him the better guy that girls should be looking for. That's what I meant by finding our own understanding on what Holden tries to tell us as the readers. Salinger makes it interesting for us to create our own assumptions through Holden's contradictory personality and how he says something, then right after goes completely against it. Holden certainly is something else.
ReplyDelete-Kyle Maravillas
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ReplyDeleteI agree with my peers that not only is Holden a very confused individual, but that he can also be very indecisive at times. He makes rash decisions and comes up with spur of the moment ideas based on his emotions. Holden does not seem to make decisions rationally, but rather through the course of how he's feeling in the present moment. The idea that Holden might become one of those "dopey guys" is what intimidates him when it comes to marriage or a serious relationship. Therefore, I believe that is why he suggests running away with Sally. It would be the less traditional route, and it would be more spontaneous which is what Holden seems to favor. As we've all come to realize Holden is a very analytical individual and tends to criticize everyone and everything. Either Holden does not hold himself to the same standard as everyone else (which can be due to his upbringing) or he worries that he could some day fall into the same category as those he criticizes. In conclusion by trying to be different and stand out from the crowd of "dopey men" it will help to prevent him from becoming one in the near future.
ReplyDeleteLike my peers have stated, I believe that Holden does not expect himself to turn out like those “dopey guys.” I think his sudden urge to ask Sally to run away with him was that he could not face reality and instead wanted to run away from it. Sally explains to Holden that “we’re practically children.” I believe that Holden still holds childish traits while Sally on the other hand is mature enough and able to accept reality for what it is. Holden claims that he had an urge to marry Sally. I do not think that he meant what he said and was only resorting to rash decisions because he is intimidated of what he has to face. Holden does not want to follow what everyone else does and instead wants his own individuality which led him to make childish choices during this passage. I believe that Holden refers to Sally as “Old Sally” because she acts much more sensible than him. As I read, I knew that he also referred to his younger sister Phoebe as “Old Phoebe” as a sign of affection. I am not completely certain that it has the same meaning as when he calls Sally this because I think that he only vaguely cares for her unlike his sister.
ReplyDelete-Sarah Solis
As Sarah stated, I do not feel Holden referring to Ms. Hayes as "old Sally" was a term of endearment; rather, it serves as an acknowledgment of her maturity. I want to call this the Peter Pan Syndrome. Holden fears the responsibilities of adulthood, so he clings to the childish fantasies of adolescence.
ReplyDeletePerhaps I am reading too much into Holden, but I think all of his judgments are stemmed from Allie's death. His brother died at too young of an age, right? Holden constantly tries to preserve any semblance of his childhood in the novel. He flunks school to avoid college and careers. He is a "sex maniac" who has never had sex. He hates people who can't focus on any one topic, and yet his narration is always jumping between subjects, like an infant. Poor Allie loved poetry and right when we find this out we also learn Holden and his brother D.B. are very good in English.
His hold on the past keeps him from looking forward to the future in the present. So no I do not see Holden as a madman, but a grieving brother.
It may be possible that Salinger mentions Hamlet in order to establish a line of similar significance between Hamlet and Holden, but I interpreted this as a way for Salinger to draw a possible contrast between Holden and Hamlet. They both have a family member that has passed away, yes, but they characters are quite the opposite. This may have also led the reader to feel further sympathy for Holden and his problems.
ReplyDeleteAs mentioned in an earlier blog post, Holden's personality is full of such irony. He often acts and thinks as if he is as old as the phonies that he criticizes, but does not think about how older people think of him. I don't think he is intentionally mocking himself, but rather letting his urges to feel like an adult take hold. He does not openly criticize himself very often in the book. In regards to Sally, Salinger makes it distinguishes her as being an old friend of Holden, one whom he shared a somewhat close connection with (according to Holden). Because of this, it would make sense that Holden suddenly proposed the idea of running away and marriage out of hopes that Sally would eagerly accept. Holden does not seem to consider how distant they have grown or the complications that his plan presents to Sally, regardless of any close relationship they may have had in the past. Sally is right to remind him that they are simply too young to attempt such a journey, but at this point in Holden's seemingly lonesome trek through the city, it appears that he would not let their -more specifically his, age be an obstacle, especially after how much he has endured on his own. Despite Sally's disagreement with him, I believe that he refers to her as "Old Sally" out of endearment, considering how he talks about her in his past.
As a result of Holden's unruly nature he is always caught judging others. On page 137 Salinger says “You figured most of them would probably marry dopey guys.” By dopey i think he is trying to describe the snobby prep boys at Pencey. Although he is constantly placing judgement on people i envision that it's his way of boosting his self esteem. However i don't believe that Holden is mocking himself nor is he implying that he will grow up to be a “dopey guy.”
ReplyDeleteOn page 146 Holden suggest that they leave New York together. I think that Holden wants an escape from all the phoniness because he says to Sally on page 144 “Did you ever get fed up? I mean did you ever get scared that everything was going to go lousy unless you did something?” He wants to try and avoid adulthood at all cost but Sally is one to recognize it lack of maturity and sophistication.
-Alexis Gaskin
As a result of Holden's unruly nature he is always caught judging others. On page 137 Salinger says “You figured most of them would probably marry dopey guys.” By dopey i think he is trying to describe the snobby prep boys at Pencey. Although he is constantly placing judgement on people i envision that it's his way of boosting his self esteem. However i don't believe that Holden is mocking himself nor is he implying that he will grow up to be a “dopey guy.”
ReplyDeleteOn page 146 Holden suggest that they leave New York together. I think that Holden wants an escape from all the phoniness because he says to Sally on page 144 “Did you ever get fed up? I mean did you ever get scared that everything was going to go lousy unless you did something?” He wants to try and avoid adulthood at all cost but Sally is one to recognize it lack of maturity and sophistication.
-Alexis Gaskin
Holden speaks of the girls marrying “dopey” guys and then asks Sally to run away with him and marry him. Holden is not mocking himself nor the guys when he does this because he is so quick to judge everyone he sees. His personality is rather pessimistic and I believe that he does this because he is jealous that the “dopey” guys are able to do things with pretty girls, like have sex for example. This of which he attempts to do multiple times throughout the novel. I also think that Holden asks sally to marry him because he is afraid of reality and does not want to face the responsibilities that are to come. Asking Sally to run away and marry him is his plan to escape everyone and everything.
ReplyDeleteI am not surprised by Sally’s response because everything was coming so fast and unexpected. She makes valid points and is being realistic when responding to Holden. I would agree with Sally when mentioning that they are “practically children” because they have not yet finished high school nor college and does not simply understand the responsibilities of being an adult.
While with Sally, Holden often refers to her as “old Sally”. I think he does this because Sally is very old fashioned and wants to do things how they are supposed to be done. She is a very sophisticated girl and abides by the rules. I also believe that he refers to her as “old Sally” because she is an old friend that he had met a long time ago. Just like how many today refer to their peers as an “old friend”.
I don’t think Holden is mocking himself, on page 123 he states how girls will go on to marry doper, self-centered guys which shows his lack of maturity and his ignorance on adult life. Holden, throughout his days wandering New York alone, is seeking his own passageway to a new adult life. He looks for that by going to bars, meeting prostitutes, and basically wandering the city and spending money, but in reality he is a scared teenager who seeks comfort from a red hunting hat. As said in the symbolism post about when he asks the taxi driver where the ducks go during the winter, he is trying to figure out where he should go in life. The ducks have this instinct as to where they belong, but he has no clue what he’s going to do for himself and he’s seeking that certainty for his life. Although he does mention unrealistic scenarios as to what his life should be, deep down he knows that his ideas aren’t plausible. This uncertainty is why he contradicted himself in the next page when he quickly says he wants to marry Sally. Holden’s pattern of thinking is usually negative at first, but later that changes once something happens, for instance, he says how girls marry dopey guys when they’re older; he mentions that because he hasn’t any luck with girls so far and his last impression of Sally is that she’s a phony, but later he becomes awe stricken with her beauty and the heat of the moment which causes a desire to marry her. I think it’s because Holden unknowingly wants to fit in so he changes his opinion constantly in hopes that, it will help him in the long run.
ReplyDeleteI believe his sudden desire to marry Sally was genuine, almost desperate. As such, I believe this shift emphasizes his emotions. Rather than mocking himself, Holden was simply overcome by a need of escape in the form of marriage, that he completely forgot all about his assumptions on husbands. He stated himself that he was absolutely serious about it, his voice even became louder with excitement. Perhaps it was the suddenness of his feelings that blew all logic from his mind.
ReplyDeleteIt seems as though Holden views marriage as an escape from reality, as I briefly mentioned. He did not want to face consequence, he did not want to face reality. He wanted to run away from everything and start fresh, without any issues or problems. Marriage is often seen as a new beginning, so perhaps that is why it appealed to him. He would start anew as a husband, as a man. And, I believe Sally had a justified and down-to-earth reaction. Truly, the two were children. They, and especially Holden, had no idea what adulthood had in store for them. Marriage is something one seriously thinks about, the fact that he seriously wants to act on a whim proves how childish and immature he is, so she was right to state the fact.
Holden likely refers to her as "Old Sally" due to their past. They have known each other for quite some time, so this must be his way of expressing his closeness to her. I consider it a way of being more casual and honest with an old friend. It shows that he knows her, and he probably believes he knows all about her.
-Kiara Mendaros
I think Holden's mocking of the dopey guys is very typical of him, but after reading the passage over I'm not sure if he's expecting to become one of them. If he is, then I see it as Holden accepting his future. He doesn't like it and he's cynical about it, but he knows it's going to happen and there's nothing he can do about it. He mocks because he's desperately trying to be a jaded teenager. He knows he'll eventually succumb to society's plan for him, but he's fighting and mocking it as hard as he can because its what other people like and expect. Holden, for whatever reason, doesn't want to conform; he doesn't want to be a dopey guy who cares too much about his car's millage, who is childish if you beat him at golf, or who doesn't read. He is jaded and cynical because of his anti-conformist stance. He finds anyone who does follow the path set out for them by society as ignorant and pitiful because they are not as intellectually evolved as he thinks he is.
ReplyDeleteAs for Holden's use of "old Sally," I think it's just a terms of endearment. He uses the word for other people too; "old Spencer," "old Ackley," "old Pheobe." I think "old" is reserved for people he doesn't really know but he's fond of.
-Andrea Ramirez
Holden is not mocking himself when he bashes the "dopey guys". Instead, Holden is attempting to reinforce the idea that he is not like those "dopey guys". It has been established that Holden constantly bashes phony individuals; which is seen as hipocritical since he possesses some of the characteristics he so often bashes. However, I believe he genuinely seeks to treat the woman he marries right. Holden later suggests he and Sally should get married out of impulse. He was angry due to the fact that he saw beautiful women surrounded by men he deemed phony, and sought to prove himself as being otherwise.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, Sally's reaction reflects how Holden is trying too hard to grow up. Why else would he be so willing to get married? Holden desperately seeks to escape isolation through unreasonable actions. Holden and Sally are only 16 years old. He does not realize what a serious commitment marriage is. In regards to "Old Sally", Holden's nickname for Sally, I agree with Kiara that it is meant to reflect their past relationship in a nostalgic way. Later in the novel he reveals that he regrets the scene at the ice skating ring, where he irrationally yells at her. In a way, it reflects Holden's guilt.
-Ingrid Reyes
As many of my classmates have stated, it appears that Holden proposes marriage to Sally in order to ascertain that he can live the life of an adult as marriage is a major milestone in that regard. Holden also wants to live irresponsibly with little change to his life from his current one, as demonstrated by his fascination with the still world found in the museum. I believe that he wishes for marriage because then nothing would change and he would always have that someone near him. This, however, is an extremely crude decision of his as me makes it out of selfish desire for continuity and adulthood rather than out of feeling. Holden is a rather disagreeable character and thus I believe he makes this proposal for all the wrong reasons. I also believe that Holden refers to Sally as “Old Sally” because he thinks of her more as his past rather than his present and future. This would tie into his want of continuity within his life as he would be able to relive the past with her every day. However, if I had to say whether such a term was made out of endearment or not, I would say yes because of the relation to Fitzgerald’s character, Gatsby’s phrase “Old Sport”. That phrase was a term of endearment that Gatsby used to make Nick feel closer to Gatsby, which is possibly what Holden is going for in this scene. The relation is something I also found because earlier in the book Holden referenced Gatsby and how he liked the phrase “old sport” that he had used on Nick.
ReplyDeletei found Daniela Nolasco's depiction of this part of the book very interesting. i never really looked into the irony of the situation between old sally and Holden. i actually laughed when i realized the irony of Holden calling sally an airhead while she is trying to bring him back to his senses. what you have to understand first and foremost is that Holden is not a reliable narrator. this is because Holden can only see situations from one perspective instead of the whole picture. so i don't believe Holden was mocking himself when he said he wanted to marry sally. i think he is just trying to escape the impending doom he sees in adulthood. Holden talked of moving and getting married so excitedly because he thought he could finally have a companion to talk to and get away from all the hardships and bad memories in New York. its not that Holden is mocking himself by wanting to get married like the other 'dopey guys', he is just trying to avoid confronting his present and future circumstances. Holden isn't a madman, he's just trying to survive in a mad wold.
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 17 Holden is his usual self, observant and overcritical. The way Holden describes marriage as depressing since he sees it is idiotic when he claims "..most of them would probably marry dopey guys". he explains the variety of guys that exist and is unaware that he fits some of those categories, his roommates and other friends would describe him as childish and sore. Holden is mocking himself but he does not want to be associated with those kind of people. I feel that marriage is an importance to Holden which is why he brings it up, this contradicts his claim but in seeing Sally he is reminded of a relationship that exists in the past due to there history which is a reason he calls her Old Sally, but also a relationship that can exist in the future if they were to get married. Holden wants to escape from the world where he is constantly depressed in and lonesome. I believe he feels the only way to feel that void is to marry Sally and leave New York. In being very impulsive, Sally could in no way agree to Holden's plans since she has responsibilities unlike him, this is why Sally states "we're practically children". In my perspective Holden is a madman since he is very impetuous and speaks of death as alternative.
ReplyDelete- Jasmine Rivas
Truely Holden is mocking himself. I feel that when he is describing these "dopey guys" he is referring to himself. I also think that he wants to be referred as a dopey guy due to that he wants to get married and make his own life so he doesn't have to stay on his depressing one at the moment. I predict that he will feel much more relieved when he has a life on his own. When he told Sally his whole crazy idea about getting out New York and creating a new life with her, she says that they are just kids; leaving poor Holden feel unhappy. Sally has said that she wouldn't mind going with him but then again they are just sixteen years old. He refers to her as Old Sally due to that they knew each other a while back. This is a way to express his endearment for her. But I also feel that he shows affection toward her just as a replacement to forget about Jane. I wouldn't describe him as a madman, yes that is a crazy idea of leaving everything behind and get out of the city but i just view it as an idea with a lot of imagination - Lithzy Alvarado
ReplyDeleteIn agreement with my peers, I believe that Holden is once again, being pessimistic and cynical when he discusses how women tend to run off with “dopey guys”. If anything I believe that the comment stemmed from jealousy as Holden is not the best when talking to women. When suggesting running away and getting married to Sally I don't believe that Holden had any feelings for sally, I think he was trying to escape his loneliness. Holden gets ideas that he never follows through on or quickly dismisses, due to the fact that he dose not process his ideas fully before stating them. As for Sally’s reaction, I believe that she was justified as they don’t know each other that well and as Sally stated, “We are practically children”.
ReplyDeleteYou can clearly see that Holden does not know what he wants with his own life. His decisions are based on what looks good for others not what he really wants. He talks about marriage when he is not even mature. Top that with not even being able to respect women. When he asks Sally to marry him i think he just did it so that Sally would not end up marrying a ''dopey guy.'' I do believe that Holden is a Madman because like some of my peers have already mentioned, Holden makes decisions very intensely which makes him a reckless person. Since the beginning of the book he showed this foolish attitude of a rebellious teenager who does not know what he really wants in life.
ReplyDelete-ayline ruelas
This wouldn’t be the first time Holden contradicts himself. I personally don’t think he is mocking himself in saying he’d be one of those dopey husbands. Like my peers have said, Holden is most likely challenging that idea saying he’d be a better husband and be able to offer a better life to his wife. I agree with what Jazzlyn Aviles said, I also think that Holden was trying to escape the reality of adulthood to continue on living as a child. He wasn’t thinking about the consequences, unlike Sally. She was aware that they could run into trouble if they can’t find jobs after their money runs out. She also thought they wouldn’t be able to pull this off since they’re “practically children”, she knows there’s a time and place for everything. Holden on the other hand, started thinking into what his future would be like if he stayed and he described it as a dull cycle he wouldn’t enjoy.
ReplyDeleteHolden's statement about husbands may not be to mock himself, but possibly to separate himself from a category he fears to be in. Holden does not want to be like the dopey guys that girls will most likely marry, but a small part of him dreads that as he grows up it may be inevitable. In response he conjures up an alternative fantasy where he can live a quiet life away from the city and phonies with pretty girl so he does not have to face the reality of his future. His rash proposal to Sally is a representation of his use of escapism that stems from the unstable mindset he has in the days spent relatively alone in New York. Sally however, is well aware where Holden's plan will lead them and rationally declines his offer which simultaneously brings him back to the reality he does not want to consider.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden does not intend to be mocking himself with his statement of dopey guys. Most likely, Holden feels that the people who are getting into relationships seem fake to him. He must feel that every relationship he sees is repetitive with the same “dopey” guys and girls. Overall, this is reflecting his inexperience with romantic relations. Returning to the topic of Sally, He seems to want to try to become like the other “dopey” couples and try to escape with Sally. However he seems to not understand Sally’s thought process and explanation that what he is saying is just unrealistic. Overall, in seems that Holden is living in a sort of fantasy world where his ideals hold true and his picture of love is perfect. It reflects how young and innocent Holden is to relationships.
ReplyDeleteIn contrast Sally is grounded in her reaction seeing how they are at a young age and wants realistic goals for the two of them. She describes how Holden should focus on getting a job and college first. The view between Holden and Sally are stark contrasts as Holden has a very idealistic fantasy about getting married and running away while Sally has a more realistic fantasy. Furthermore, Holden uses “Old Sally” as a nickname. I believe that this is not used as a name of endearment but to refer to sally as “in the past.” I think that because they were so different in opinions that Holden moved on from Sally and in turn calls her “in the past” to signify his moving on.
-Seth Yves Perez
I agree with my peers on the fact that Holden is not mocking himself when mentioning these "dopey guys" and when speaking of women going to marry these men. I feel as if Holden describes these guys as dopey due to some of the jealousy he feels towards them since they are usually seen with the more attractive girls. In my opinion I feel as if Holden depicts these teenage boys as dopey because he wants to prove to the reader that he is not like that.
ReplyDeleteWhen he tells Sally to run away with him and possibly get married I noticed that Sally is a person he always turns to when trying to escape or is lonely and from what I understood from his remarks about her it seems to be because of her looks. For instance on page 148 he tells Sally that she gives him a "royal pain in the ass" however has previously mentioned how she is good looking. Furthermore, this adds to the idea that he does not want to be seen as a dopey guy such as the ones he describes however he just turns to Sally when he needs her.
-Mariana Simmons
I don't believe Holden is mocking himself when he reflects on his actions with Sally, but I think he is feeling regretful of losing old Sally. I also think a part of Holden wishes to be one of the "dopey" guys that go to the movies with their wife and abide to their needs, I think this idea can offer Holden a sense of stability and routine and predictability. Holden's immature fantasy of running away with his young love into the woods seems very fictional and even fairytale. Holden claims that at a certain point he did genuinely love Sally and he did want to marry her. After seeing the couples in the theater and being somewhat threatened by the friend of Sally, Holden wishes to act mature and may believe marriage is the best way in doing so. This brings us to Sally's reaction in saying that they are "practically children", she doesn't share the same urge to be an adult already as Holden does. And I believe the reason Holden refers to her as old Sally is because she has different views and motives, which Holden respects her for.
ReplyDeleteLike my peers have already previously stated, I believe that Holden was not mocking himself when he was frequently referencing husbands. I believe that he began to think about marriage because of the various couples surrounding him and Sally. His date with Sally just adds on to his mental and emotional instability, since Holden becomes very fickle with his feelings for her. When he first meets up with Sally, he witnesses how beautiful she is and instantly states how he might even be in love with her. He later asks Sally to run away with him and get married with him, almost as if he is rushing to find happiness in a relationship, desperate to be loved. Sally responds with logical reasoning, stating that they were too young and questioning the likelihood that Holden would find a job. Despite her young age, Sally has a point. They were only in their late teens, and if they truly loved each other, they would be able to wait until after college to start thinking about their future together. However, as the date goes on, Holden then concludes that Sally is really "a royal pain in the ass", which greatly upsets her and ruins the date. This just shows Holden's unrealistic views toward an unreachable dream, and his failure to reconnect with someone. In addition, Holden may have mood swings, which could contribute to him being a "madman." He even claims that he is a madman, but never follows up with an explanation as to why he would think so.
ReplyDeleteHolden's use of the name "Old Sally" may hold some affection, but I believe that it holds no special meaning. Much like how Holden calls Jane as "Old Jane", maybe he uses such titles to reference how long he has known them, or if he formed some sort of connection with them in the past. Therefore, if he uses the term for both girls, it shouldn't be special to one girl in particular.
-Meagan Phillips
In this segment of the book, Holden is even more indecisive than before, especially with Sally. When calling her, he tells us that she is stupid and it took him so long to realize she was. However, he calls her anyways, sets up a date and stated how he wanted to marry her when he saw her. The “dopey guys” he mentions he thinks of in the same sense. First he complains about their hobbies and how boring they are. However, he then sort of admits that they all could have a talent that counteracts their boring personalities. It is as though he envies them in a way, as if he is saying he wished he could be like the “dopey guys” and that he was too different from them.
ReplyDeleteHolden’s proposal to leave New York together with Sally and to get married sounded like an act of desperation. He wanted to leave anyways, his only attachment to New York was his sister, and he did not want to leave alone. The loneliness he was feeling, especially after seeing all the couples and thinking about the dopey husbands, pushed him to ask for Sally to join him. His feelings for Sally are still unclear at this point but the fact that she was there with him and that they had a history was the reason he asked. Sally’s response was common sense, they were just children. Holden’s proposition was not reasonable. The whole thing really does make one wonder if Holden really has gone mad.
-Liam Brewster
Holden's description of "dopey guys' seemingly demonstrates sort of a standard that the protagonist wants to uphold. As he continues to interact to people and analyze the company of others, Caulfield has developed an insight into the type of man he would want to be. He acknowledges the nature of many men in society that are often unfit to the title of adulthood. Though his proposition to get married with Sally is somewhat foolish and contradictory, it demonstrates an interior side of Holden as he struggles to cope with the transition from a troubled teenager to an adult. He has this inexplicable irritability with the company of others and resorts to criticisms to disregard his own insecurities. Though he acknowledges the fact that women seemingly are attracted to this male persona that he so despises, he seeks to assimilate to the social constructs set before him. Nevertheless, finds that his personality and mindset is unfit for the traditional point of view that his peer all appear to have. Though this presents itself as somewhat pessimistic, it presents a rupture in the predetermined path set before the more privileged individuals in society for one that is more rewarding to the person on a personal level rather than merely financial.
ReplyDeleteHolden appears to be a madman in that he rejects the path that is set before him. He is a 16 year old teenager that is still seeking his path in life and the type of person he wants to be in the future. His proposition to Sally demonstrates his fear of facing reality and the blunders of society as an adult.
I do not believe Holden intentionally mocks himself although he does contradict himself but he has been contradicting himself throughout the book. This again shows us his confusion towards his teenage years and not knowing what to do. When Holden mentions the idea of getting married and running away I believe that shows us he is afraid of facing conflicts with the real world. When Holden tells Sally that he wants to run away with her and marry her it shows us a view of Sally that seems more mature and realistic that Holden's. Sally seemed like she understood the real world they lived in while Holden kept on imagining his own idealistic world in where he would like to live. Although he doesn't really know and connect with Sally he still proposes to her to run away, this shows us his childishness inside to not want to grow and stay young forever in order to avoid conflicts. This goes back to his fear of growing up and his desperate need for companionship.
ReplyDelete-Briana Nieves
For the reference to Hamlet I believe he references the book because the two are significantly different. Although I have not read Hamlet yet I can predict that the way the two main characters react are much more different. The main character in Hamlet is older thus he will act more mature however he has had more time with his family member and mourn for his father even greater than Holden because that is how a book of a mourning father may get interesting, even lead to drinking alcohol and other actions that he is of age or illegal actions. While Holden is more immature and punched out windows for no good reason which just ended up hurting himself even more. Since he had less time with his brother he may mourn but he could resolve it by doing stupid actions like drinking or trying to connect with other people deeply to try and replace that hole in his chest that was his brother, and decided to go with Sally instead of Jane, even though to me he should've ended up with Jane.
ReplyDeleteHolden referring to the husbands not doing anything to me is inevitable because right after he does try to get Sally, it is inevitable for many men and he is victim to it. I do believe Holden is crazy. He tries to marry Sally at a skate rink and it has been a while since they've seen each other and it is easy to see that Holden still points out flaws about Sally which shows he shouldn't be marrying her if he doesn't like her personality. For the part of old Sally I seem to think it could mean two things, either she refers to her as old Sally because they are long time friends, or just as a term to show his care for her.
My beliefs are similar to those of some of my colleagues have mentioned. I think that Holden is not mocking himself, even though he does contradict himself yet again. Holden appears to be jealous about "dopey guys" because he is not one of them. In this part of the Nobel Holden is trying to convince Sally to run away with him, but Sally responds with a more mature point of view she says that the idea was ridiculous since they were "practically children". In other words Holden is trying to run away from his problems, he does not want to become and adult because he realizes that he will have tons of responsibilities.
ReplyDeleteAlso I think that Holden refers to Sally as "old Sally" to describe her as an adult, describing her as mature. Due to the way Sally responds the word "old" fits her perfectly as she didn't agree with the childish ideas that Holden had in mind. In various parts of the story we see can see Holden's childish behavior, but it is mature people just like Sally that try to guide Holden Caulfield through the right path. I can understand why Holden could be described as a madman, but I believe that he is at that point of his life in which he wants to be free (teenager years).
At this point in the book, I think Holden is fed up with being isolated and wants to love and have it be reciprocated and the only way to do that would be to seal the deal with marriage. The concept of marriage in itself is weird. A person promises another person that by law they are officially together and that sexual interactions with another person is considered infidelity and is wrong. I only agree with this because I was born into a world where this was the norm. It was essentially indoctrination. If two people really loved each other then they would out enough faith into each other to be loyal to one another and not necessarily need marriage saying in official documentation that this person is basically off the dating market. I hate the notion of feeling bound when it deals with pressure. This is society. Holden unloads all of this unto Sally because he is still young and his decisions are yet to be developed. His rash decisions are countered by Sally lashing back at him saying that they’re “practically children” and they are. They are around the ages of sixteen with their whole life of ahead of them. There’s still so much left to experience, still so much to see, still so much to feel, still so much to live. Holden doesn’t appreciate Sally coming back at him like that and yet he still remembers how Sally used to be when they were younger and there lies the reason behind why he refers to her as Old Sally. Honestly, Holden is just a mess right now having to deal with dropping out of his fourth prep school and having nowhere to turn because he feels as if everyone is a phony and no one is genuine enough for him. He eventually comes to dislike everyone at some point if not before. I see this as his way of pushing everyone out because they are either not worthy enough or are too bourgeois for him and is too snobby. He needs to get a grip on life.
ReplyDelete-Antonio Robledo
As my peers have stated, Holden is obviously different than typical teenagers in his society. He makes fun of “dopey guys” girls marry because they all went through the same routine from high school to college to getting a job and settling down. I also believe Holden is not mocking himself when he states he had the sudden urge to marry Sally. He was just in shock and attracted to her due to her good looks. He was not thinking about him becoming a dopey guy after marrying her.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, when Holden suggests running away to Sally. I think he wanted to leave reality and start all over. He invited Sally because he trusts her and enjoys her company. Also, I do not think he was in love with her. I think he asked her to marry him, so she will run away with him. However, Sally states they are practically children, which shows how unique Holden is compared to his peers because he is the only one that does not want to face reality and grow up.
- Janelle Douglas
I don't think Holden was intentionally mocking himself. I think that due to the many emotions he was feeling at the time, he was unaware of what he was really asking of Sally.
ReplyDeleteWhich leads me to my next point:
Sally has a good head on her shoulders. Figuratively speaking, she wants to play life by the rules. She wants to do everything and accomplish as many things as she can. And she knows she can't do this by getting married at such a young age and running off to be with this kid who doesn't even know what he wants. She knows she's better than that. And she also knows that he will never truly understand this, which is why she tells him she can't. She sees his immaturity, and knows she wants something better. She acknowledges that they are just kids, and that is the last thing Holden wants to hear, since he is trying to avoid adulthood.
I think Holden calls her old Sally as a way of endearment but also not. He remembers her, and that's what she is to him, a memory. Nothing more, just a crazy, honest memory.
ReplyDeleteSimilar to several of my peers, I do not entirely believe that Holden is mocking himself when he discusses "dopey guys". Perhaps he was so engulfed by the idea, that is seemed reasonable to urge Sally to marry him and run away. However, I perceived this action of more of an opportunity for Holden to escape as he encounters the responsibilities of adulthood. The idea of fleeing west with someone he thought he "loves" seemed to serve as a refuge for the protagonist. Nevertheless, his desires are undoubtedly spontaneous and unreasonable. Sally mentions that she and Holden "can't just do some like that" (147) because they are practically children, on the verge of becoming adults. In addition to Holden's surprising desires and impulses, he explicitly states "I swear to God I'm a madman" (149).
-Nicole Isabelle
I believe that Holden frequently revisits the thought of marriage within this chapter because of his increasing loneliness. He recently had a greater urge to call people he hasn't spoke to in years, including Sally, Phoebe, and Jane. And often, when we think of what others have that we don’t, even if we initially mock it, then we subconsciously begin to desire that same thing for ourselves. I found the same thing in Holden's case, where he sees marriage as this sort of escape from the spiraling solitude he experiences. So while he certainly does not love Sally, and she probably doesn't like him back, he asks her to marry him anyways. I noticed that Holden almost couldn't stop himself from saying he loved Sally, but knew it was a straight lie even while the words were still leaving his mouth. This is one problem with teenagers-they often act and feel according to the moment. I believe that it was the same case for Sally. What Sally meant to tell Holden when she said that they were both children was that she didn't want to leave her current lifestyle. She was willing to lay along with Holden's love thing while it was still enjoyable, but the thought of leaving the comfort and flow of her life, and ditch school while she was at it, was too much for her. While Holden is a rebel and has next to nothing holding him down, the rest of society prefers conformity.
ReplyDelete-Kayla Manness
I do believe that Holden is indeed mocking the husbands, but he also finds himself wanting to be that "dopey guy". This is because of Holden's loneliness in the entire book. He even tries as so far to flirt with a mother to grab drinks with him on the train and later wants to have sex with a prostitute. Holden is immature and has yet to experience true love with another individual. His relationship with Jane Gallagher does not necessarily qualify since he had no romantic relationship with her where she also loved him. Holden is still growing and has not fully grasped the meaning of love. This is proven when he meets Luce and Luce keeps telling Holden that if he keeps talking about lust instead of love, he's not interested in chatting with him. In today's society, people often tell others they love them but what they actually mean is lust. Love is more of putting your needs aside for the other, truly caring, or loving, that individual. I do not believe Holden is much of a madman, he is more misguided and too immature to understand.
ReplyDeleteWhile Holden is talking about "husbands" in this part of the book, I believe that he was just observing the girls and wanted to think about where they would be in the future and who would they be with. However, when he sees Sally, I think his feelings just overcame him when he said he had the urge to marry her. Also, since he left Pencey, he has been pretty lonely and was probably just desperate to be with a girl at that moment especially after he saw the girls waiting for their dates. I don't think that Holden was mocking himself when he said he had the urge to marry her. Maybe he just thought she looked beautiful and want to be with her at the time. When he suggested to Sally that they leave New York, I thought it was weird because before he saw her, he didn't really want to go on the date with her. It is obvious that Holden wasn't thinking straight. When Sally says that they are "practically children," I believe she meant that he was taking things too far and that they were not mature enough to get married at the moment. Lastly, he refers to her as old Sally because she is a person that he knew from his childhood. I don't think it is a form of affection, but merely a term that he uses because she was a person he knew when he was growing up.
ReplyDelete-Janessa Pujeda
I feel that Holden's impulsiveness and longing for life-long companionship roots from his loneliness. While Holden's monologue about husbands may seem contradictory, I am in agreement with Janessa in that Holden was just acting upon his momentary feelings and spontaneity. When Sally refuses Holden's proposal, so to speak, she means to say that Holden has not thought this through and that both of them could not possibly be prepared for such a commitment, as they are "just kids."
ReplyDeleteI think that Holden is not mocking himself, but rather, using Sally as a way of running away from his problems. He mentions running away, marrying, and finding a new life as a quicker and more convenient, yet unrealistic way of growing up. I also think that he was using her as a way of overcoming his loneliness and want for Jane. He doesn't actually love Sally. He just wants to be with someone. Holden may be a dopey guy himself, but just doesn't want to admit it. He has done some foolish things over the course of the book, such as lying, asking people for drinks even though he is a minor, and flirting with random women.
ReplyDeleteWhat Sally meant by them being "practically children" is that they are too young to be making such important decisions. Also, she meant that Holden was being too sudden with his actions. She met him for the first time in what seemed to be a while, and he suddenly wanted to marry her out of the blue, so it is understandable that she would reject him like that.
Holden probably referred to her as "old Sally" because the were old friends. It might be a slight form of affection, but only a friendly one, not a romantic one.
Holden is a madman. As always he has an opinion, this time regarding husbands. He begins his mockery by talking about society, and how women in his social circle were bound to marry snobby men with materialistic views and an acute interest towards good car mileage. an incredibly short amount of time later he mentions that he and Sally should leave New York and get married. Nice going bud. He does not expect to become a materialistic individual however, Holden seems to like purity (which is why he so much likes Jane, because she is pure and not phony) and marriage is a pretty pure and moral act. He likes the idea of being married more than the idea of marrying someone. Holden wants to go off to the middle of no where to live in a cabin, have a simple job, and fend for himself and his family. No Cadillac, no gas mileage, nothing materialistic. This is the reason that he mentions leaving New York city, so that he can be alone. As for calling her 'Old Sally', I don't believe this is a term of endearment. He seems to call people old when he has known them since before his brother died. The old is more connected to the time that he knew them which is why he also calls Phoebe, 'Old Phoebe".
ReplyDeleteHolden is running away from something all right, but it isn't with Sally. He has made it clear that he doesn't want to grow up. While everyone is finishing school, getting jobs, moving on with their lives, he is still stuck in the same place. His childlike decisions, and quick fixes like running away, all emphasize that he fears adulthood. He refers to her as old Sally, because she is realistic, and she holds the common sense that he seems to lack. She doesn't see things in a dreamlike state the way he does. He seems like such a madman because although everyone else in the story seems to be getting their life together or at least seeming to have some sort of direction to go in, he is simply a rebel without a cause.
ReplyDeleteI think Holden is a lonely soul, and asking someone so sudden about marriage is somewhat reasonable since he does not know any better. He is not mocking himself perhaps he is afraid of growing up therefore there is no way for him to see himself as an adult. He never got intimate with anyone, when he is about to, he backs out. This shows his inability to grasp maturity. He is scared to transition from innocent to mature.
ReplyDelete- Jemima Subaran