Dear AP students:
Is Holden a misogynist? In other words, does
he hate women? Or does he just look down on them? Or does he
actually put them on a pedestal? Give me your thoughts on
this matter after reading the rest of this blog.
Every time we read a novel in AP English Literature
we will discuss the role of women in the story. We will read about some
strong willed women in Macbeth and The Awakening. And we
will read about how some characters react to women, such as in Hamlet. We
will analyze from the so-called "feminist perspective." This
means we will read to determine if a story shows women characters being
subjected to traditional male dominance, if the women characters are in
traditional female roles like "stay-at-home moms" or lacking any
power, or subjected to physical or mental abuse, or on the other hand, if
women characters are given opportunities to explore their full potential.
Reading from such a perspective will force us to see things in a novel that we
might not ordinarily notice.
The Catcher in the Rye precedes
the feminist movement by more than ten years. Betty Friedan's famous
book "The Feminist Mystique", a book that helped to get the
Feminist movement going, wasn't published until 1963. So keep
in mind that what we have in Holden Caulfield is a pre-feminist movement
male teen, with old fashioned ideas of females.
On the train he lies to the mother of his fellow Pencey
student. He doesn't appear to show her much respect...but is it
because she is a woman?
In the nightclub he talks in a derogatory manner
about the three women from Seattle. He uses word like "ugly",
"boring", "ignorant", "witches,"
"morons," "dopey", etc. In turn, he describes himself
as "suave" and claims to talk over their heads.
Finally, he discusses Jane Gallagher. We never get
to see him interact with her, but he carefully describes her in an oddly
postitive manner, and explains to us how he enjoyed being with her during
the summer. He says she wasn't exactly beautiful. He also bothers
to mention that they never "necked". He also explains how he
liked it when she placed her hand on the back of his neck--a very innocent
gesture. And he mentions how it drove him crazy to think of her and
Stradlater in the car together. At the same time, he doesn't have
anything good to say about her mother (or stepfather). What's with the
way he perceives Jane?
What about the other women/girls in the novel?
So what does this all mean? Does he hate females? Is he an old
fashioned male chauvinist pig? Or is there some other issue at play here?
I believe that this attitude is not exclusively directed towards the women in this novel, demonstrated by the idea that he shows disrespect towards males as well. Jane to Holden is a symbol of child-like innocence, or possibly a developing adolescent love, which makes sense knowing that Holden has trouble transitioning from a child into an adult. He has negative opinions about people such as his parents, and sees them all as phonies. This is representative of Holden's hesitance to conform to adulthood.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI agree with William's statement. Holden from the start established himself as someone with a sharp tongue everyone he meet often fell victim to it, both men and women. Take for example, his description of Mr. Spencer in which he described him an unflattering manner. As seen in this quote," Old guy that didn't know his ass from his elbow".
DeleteIf we look Holden had demonstrated respect to women. Such women include Jane and his younger sister, Phoebe. In both cases he demonstrated extreme respect towards them both. For example he bought Phoebe a record a kind gesture considering it came out of his own pocket. If we consider his interactions with Jane we are led to believe that Holden was developing a relationship with Jane. One that wasn't created out of lust but like William said out of love of her innocence.
I agree with Michael's statement.
DeleteHolden does seem to show respect to women throughout the novel. One great and powerful example of this is Holden's hesitation to sleep with the prostitute that it brought to his room. Holden has respect for women, and just wanted somebody to talk to. He paid a prostitute to be his psychologist, if you really think about it.
Many will bring up the fact that Holden lied to the woman on the train and say that Holden is disrespectful to women. To those, I ask you to recall the taxi rides in which Holden messes with the taxi drivers mentally, asking them what they think happens to the fish and ducks from the lake in central park when the lake freezes over in winter. We need to remember that Holden is a teenager, he is not completely mature. Holden is messing around with these people, MALE AND FEMALE ALIKE, to help him cope with the pain of being kicked out of yet another school. This is Holden's attempt to keep his own mood light, and to make sure that he doesn't fall into depression like he does later in the book.
Xavier Sanchez
As my compatriot Xavier has just stated, Holden does respect women, because of the incident in the bakery with the nuns. Despite considering himself an atheist, Holden donates ten dollars to the nuns and wanted to give more. He does not hate women, he simply likes to mess around with the likes of most everyone. I do not believe that he looks down on women, because of his affaire with Jane Gallagher. He adored her and since the summer they spent together, he cannot stop thinking about her, nor can he imagine her with another man. I think to some extent Holden puts women on a pedestal, he compares most women to his Jane, and to his intelligent little sister.
Delete- Isabella Wolf
At multiple points in the novel Holden interacts with female characters taking into historical context the time period and the still not fully fleshed out feminist movement until the 1960's I read through the way that Holden interacts with the females throughout the novel. In specific reference to when Holden refers to the women drinking in the lavender room and to DB's ex in eddies club he refers to women in derogatory terms such as "witches" or vulgar objectification "she had really big knockers" however it is an interesting contrast to the way that Holden interacts with the nuns in the diner at a later chapter stating at the end of the interaction "I'd enjoyed talking to them a lot, too. I meant it,too. I'd have enjoyed it more though ,i think if i hadn't been sort of afraid , the whole time i was talking to them, that they'd all of the sudden try to find out if i was catholic" (Pg 146). Here Holden seems to be enjoying the conversation unlike others but at the end the interaction the conversation seems almost tainted by a hidden motive that Holden detects about the nuns. Continuing with that idea Holden's description of Jane is positive ans specific when referencing the Past events that transpired with her ad how the time with her Holden seems to look back on fondly. Based on these observations i can draw the conclusion that Holden views females that are attached to his childhood or past as more positive than the adult females he interacts with who have hidden motives or agendas veiled behind the conversation even though Holden still strives for Beauty and human contact as he grows older just like the one before with Jane Gallagher yet he still finds difficulty with finding that contact in that the adult society he is struggling to transition into .
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhen taking into account Holden’s age and personality, we must realize that our narrator does not mean to hold misogynist views against women. Instead, Holden may simply be confused when dealing with those of the opposite gender, save for Phoebe and Jane. Though he makes hasty judgment of women, such as the three night club girls he deemed “pretty ugly” and “witches” in chapter nine, it is important to note that his judgmental tendency is not strictly limited to women. As many of my classmates have mentioned in other posts, Holden forms quick conclusions of almost everyone he encounters. Furthermore, from what I’ve attained while reading this story, Holden truly detests the notion of objectifying and taking advantage of women; this can be seen when Holden loses his cool and punches Stradlater over hinting the idea of him having sex with Jane. Even more so, Holden states that, “I think if you don’t really like a girl, you shouldn’t horse around with her at all, and if you do like her, then you’re supposed to like her face…” (pg. 90). While it is true that Holden attempts to hook up with women such as Faith Cavendish and Sunny the prostitute, he ultimately does not follow through with his attempts to engage in sexual relations with them. I’m curious as to what everyone else thinks about Holden and his regard—or lack thereof—of women.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your statement. Holden treats the girl of the story as poorly as the boys. He brings up physical traits about his male classmates, like Ackley and his nail cutting. Even though he talks about his obsession with sex in one chapter, he later admits that he was still a virgin. His statements against girls may be due to his inability to become romantically involved with one. Even when he paid for the prostitute, he eventually found himself unwilling to have sexual intercourse with a woman he was unfamiliar with. As a teenager surrounded by other people who have dated woman, Holden may just be worried that he will not get to lose his virginity. As mentioned in the above post, Holden is against exploiting women, as he gets angry when Stradlater implies he slept with Jane without getting to know her.
DeleteAdditionally, Holden's relationship with his sister Phoebe should also be addressed. Holden reveres Phoebe, and he acknowledges her intelligence. He buys her an expensive record, even though it breaks, and he risks getting in trouble with their parents so he can see her again. When he plans on running away, he waits for Phoebe so he can tell her one last goodbye. And after Phoebe begins crying that she can't be with Holden, he tries to console her. Even if he does not give women (and men) the kindness they deserve, he does treat his sister with great care.
-Maxwell Bauer
I agree what my peer Brandon is saying, I believe that due to his age Holden simply doesn't know what to do with women throughout the book he hints to wanting to have sex and doing these things but when an opportunity was presented like when the prostitute arrived and started to get closer he freaked out and didn't know what to do. Holden is confused I don't believe he hates women because I felt that the way he described the women using the derogatory terms he used he didn't just use them for women he also described many of the male characters in the book the same way. Another reason why I believe he was confused is when he describes Jane and makes it obvious to us as readers he feels for her he never contacted her at all because he didn't know how to do what he wanted to do.
DeleteHolden’s distaste and general dislike of women stems more from his unwillingness to grow up. All the women he encounters are sexualized in one way or another. Holden is very acknowledging of his sexuality, but he admits that he can never act on it. It even gets to the point where he is in the same room as a prostitute that he paid and instead asks her if she wants to talk. His apparent hatred of women stems not from male condescension, as would have been common, but an unwillingness to grow up. Sex is a very large part of what is considered the growing up process, and Holden’s distaste of women is part of his way of clinging to innocence.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, Holden’s high regard for Jane Gallagher is a way of showing true affection for a female in the only way he can without forsaking his innocence. All the other women in the novel he describes as incredibly sexual figures, but he contrasts this by describing Jane as a great checkers player. By leaving her as a pure figure, the idea of her with Stradlater in the car completely violates the image he painted of her. Holden wanted to keep her a clean, white figure in his mind that he could love without the fear of having to grow up and face the realities of life. But her date with Stradlater threatens this image, so Holden reacts violently towards his past roommate, because Stradlater warps the way Holden sees Jane.
-Mackenzie Spence
I completely agree with Mackenzie on the idea that Holden’s view of woman is more likely based on his age and small sense of innocence. Throughout most of the novel Holden seems torn between claiming that he is still young or trying to act like an adult. Holden is aware of his sexuality, but I think he just isn’t mature or old enough to act on it. He has had many opportunities to, but never has. He acts like he is ready but when it comes to the actual time, he ops out. With all of Holden’s talk about sex and his sexuality one can assume that he is not a virgin until he confesses that he is. He claims and acts like a sexual, mature boy, but in reality he is just too young for all of it, and his unwillingness to grow up is a problem as well. For example, he claims that he always had the opportunity with most girls but couldn’t get himself around to do it, which is an example of how young Holden still is in this case. Another example is with Sunny the hooker. In Holden’s mind he is ready and old enough to do this but when it comes to the time he prefers to just talk. Holden believed that he was an adult enough to do this but when he chooses not to you can see him still trying to keep some of his innocence he has left.
DeleteThe women that Holden does not sexualize are the ones that Holden seems to respect the most, even though it sees like he might have some small feelings for one of them. When speaking of Jane, Holden always seems to want to respect her, that’s why he became so angry at Stradlater because he saw him disrespecting her in some way when speaking about their night in the car.
Holden’s general distaste for women comes from him still being a little too young to understand them or want to understand them. On one side he claims to be very sexy, but on the other he seems to always talk bad about the ones he does sexualize. I believe it all has to do with Holden wanting to act like an adult but still being too innocent to do so.
-Camila Lautz
I agree with Mackenzie and Camila on the concept that Holden immature and innocent when it comes to women. Although Holden has had many opportunities to have sex, he never has the determination to do so. Throughout the novel he is very interested in having sex and spends a lot of his time trying to lose his virginity. He believes that sex should happen between two people who care deeply about and respect one another. This is why Holden becomes infuriated when Stradlater had done stuff with Jane in the car. He was not jealous of the fact that Stradlater had sex with someone that he knew so well. He was upset at the fact that she had sex with someone that she barely even knew. Another woman that Holden had encountered with was Sally, which to him was a very attractive girl. Holden claims that she is “stupid,” although it is difficult to tell whether this judgment is based in reality or merely in Holden’s ambivalence about being sexually attracted to her.
DeleteWhen Holden had met the three women at the bar, he described them as "dopey", "ugly", and "morons". But that is his opinion of them. Just because he does a foul job at describing the three women, does not mean that he hates women. In fact he is quite a gentleman because he does not let them pay for their drinks, he pays for them. If he hated women or was an "old fashioned male chauvinist pig" he would have made them pay for their own drinks and for his as well. When Holden had encountered himself near a couple, he describes her as "funny looking". Holden Caulfield is not a misogynist just because he is expressing his opinion of how a woman looks. As a matter of fact, boys in high school do it all the time and girls do it just as much. Just because guys and girls call other girls "ugly" or "boring" does not mean that they hate them.
Holden Caulfield is not a misogynist because of the event when he had sat next to two nuns. If he was misogynistic, he would not have picked up the straw basket that they were carrying around. He also would not have donated ten dollars for the next collection.
Throughput the novel, Holden describes women using words that are not very kind. But this does not mean that hates women. He admires and respects his little sister, Phoebe, who would soon become a woman. As a matter of fact, he stays at home, rather than moving to the West, just for her. She is the reason why he had stayed. Because of this, I believe that Holden Caulfield loves women rather than hate.
The main character's experience with women is varied throughout the novel. The three women in the nightclub that he called "dopey" were all acting in a very silly manner. perhaps they were already intoxicated which lead to them not hearing most of the things he said or laughing hysterically at some points. But Holden has a very critical opinion for nearly everyone he just meet. Regardless of gender Holden will make cynical assumptions or ideas of people around him. even members of his family have been attacked by holden. its just the character that Holden presents that makes him so aggressive towards women he meets. Along with the whole situation with jean and Stradlater earlier that night. All in all, Our main character is both angry and energetic throughout the book that stimulates his responses to women he sees.
Delete-Michael Llanos
I see eye to eye with all all of my peers above. I feel that Holden holds a relatively immature, addled, and contradicting viewpoint of women. He incorrectly deduces that women are deficient in intelligence. He often refers to women as dumb or materialistic.
DeleteNevertheless, he sees women as human beings. In chapter 9, Holden declares that, "...If you don't really like a girl, you shouldn't horse around with her at all, and if you do like her, then you're supposed to like her face, and if you like her face, you ought to be careful about doing crumby stuff to it, like squirting water all over it. It's really too bad that so much crumby stuff is a lot of fun sometimes." He feels that women should be cherished and well respected.
Holden asserts that his little sister, Phoebe Caulfield, is exceedingly smart for her age. She is just about the only character that Holden genuinely likes and respects.
-Briana Levett
Generally, Holden does not hold a kind view towards women. But at the same time, he is like that with a lot of things. He feels as if women are not very smart nor hold any depth of character. In chapter 13, Holden proclaims that, "I mean most girls are so dumb and all. After you neck them for a while, you can really watch them loosing their brains." This is not always the case. Holden holds a lot of respect as well as love for his little sister, Phoebe. I noticed that Holden is attached to her and when he starts talking to her, he has only positive things to say. I believe that Holden's cynical view on women is not his fault. It was mentioned earlier by Mr.Rodriguez that Holden is a pre-feminist movement male teen. Everyone in society saw women as "phony' at this time, so it is no secret why Holden did the same. Additionally, Holden is a lost, immature, and confused teenage boy exploring the city. His judgements are not always towards women, they are towards just about everything/everyone he sees or comes into contact with. Holden is not a misogynist, just merely a confused teenage boy with cynical viewpoints about most things.
ReplyDelete-Justin Bleisch
After further analysis and reading the comments from my peers I too agree that Holdens seemingly misogynistic views on women aren't intentional. It's clear that he does talk positively about certain female roles in his life such as Jane and his sister Phoebe. The women he speaks of negatively or doesn't respect are usually older woman. Holden fears loosing his youth, especially since the death of his brother, Allie. Anything dealing with adults or authority upsets Holden regardless of gender, so his attitude toward those particular women was strictly because of his twisted perception of adults. I think Holden likes the opposite sex, he just insults them as a defense mechanism because he doesn't know how to talk to them. When approached by them he either says very little or makes up lies to satisfy their "phony" behavior. When he talks about Jane or Phoebe, it's always in admiration. He wishes he could be as smart and youthful as they both are. Holden doesn't hate women, this is just another example of him trying to socially integrate himself, but failing because of his own fears.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with all the opinions stated above before me about how Holden generally demonstrates a distaste towards females. However, as Mr. Rodriguez mentions, Holden does speak fondly of Jane and as Victor mentions, he also shows extreme respect to the nuns. But, we have generally established that Holden is an extremely inconsistent character when it comes to his thoughts and actions. So shouldn't that mean that we should expect inconsistency with how he treats females? Earlier in the book, when the narrator is still at Pencey, he describes how his mother went to buy him skates, and ended up getting the wrong kind. But he sounds awfully sad when he reflects back on his mother going into Spalding's and looking for skates to buy him. Later on, he dances with a few girls in the Lavender Room of his hotel. In this scene, he portrays the women he accompanies as "witches" and dumb girls by describing how he would try to ask them questions, only to be flooded with the response "what?" over and over again. He seems to disrespect these females. Next, he begins to think about Jane again and he describes a nice summer that he spent with her. He also goes back to being angry and Stradlater for becoming intimate with her. This shows respect.
ReplyDeleteHolden's attitude towards females is scattered between respectful and disrespectful. Although he lied to the woman on the train, his lies made her feel good because Holden spoke highly of her son at Pencey. Nevertheless, he certainly did disrespect her appearance in his mind, but upon reading that portion I only thought he was being a teenage boy, who is excited about women. Overall, I did not detect any significant moments of disrespect towards a woman. Even the prostitute, Sunny, was not disrespected by Caulfield. He had only wanted a nice conversation with her. Therefore, I believe that his tendency to be an inconsistent and excited teenager applies when he encounters females as well. He always spoke highly of Phoebe and her levels of maturity. However, he did once treat Sally Hayes badly when he took her out to a show and a drink. But that scene confused me a bit because he seemed to want to spend time with her, and suddenly he began to speak of crazy things and suddenly offended her. I was not entirely sure how to think of this event in comparison to the other events that occurred between Holden and other girls. His mental problems seemed to just take over in this scene
Holden Caulfield does not come off as one who dislikes women, he only carries his mental issues with him when accompanying one. But he does feel strongly for many females in his life as well, and does not intentionally disrespect any.
Innocence is a significant theme in this novel, and I think any negative attitudes Holden holds towards females only pertains to women and not girls, as others have already said. For instance, Jane's positive depiction to Holden rests on the innocence of their romantic relationship. He says, "Jane was different. We'd get into a goddamn movie or something, and right away, we'd start holding hands, and we wouldn't quit till the movie was over" (103). Similarly, when Holden speaks of his sister Phoebe, its in practically an idolizing manner, since she's still just a kid. I believe it is equally society's conditioning him to hold these views, mixed with his cynicism that leads to this. One passage I found problematic was, "That's the thing about girls. Every time they do something pretty, or even if they're sort of stupid, you fall half in love with them, and then you never know where the hell you are" (95). I did not like this passage because it shows that, to Holden, the only redeemable quality a woman can have is doing something "pretty." Additionally, his cynicism simply causes him to judge people prematurely, and think as if he has everyone figured out at first glance. Holden viewing the women in the Lavender Room as "ugly" may have tainted his perception of them from the first time he saw them. (He still talks and dances with them though, which says a lot about how lonely he is, but that's another conversation.)
ReplyDeleteOverall, I think Holden's misogynistic attitude is one shared by most of society, but its amplified by his mental issues, and the fact that he's a self-proclaimed "sex maniac" (yet is reluctant to engage in any sexual acts.)
-Amy Lopez
I do find that he speaks kindly of only the young characters throughout the novel, but if Jane or Pheobe were to grow up, I do not particularly see him treating them any differently. Because of the future perspective in which Holden writes from, he describes crudely, from each individual characters' introduction in the book, of those who have wronged him in the end. In saying so, I dually note how he "judges people prematurely," as Amy points out, based on looks, yet it is important to take into consideration of the bias that comes from writing from his point of view. If the three women from the Lavender had not "left without offering to pay for their drinks" prior to Holdens' interest in them, or if they had not been so consumed in the idea that the celebritys' presence was more important than his, I do not believe that he would not have gone to the extent of calling them "witches."
DeleteCaulfield, in my opinion, never seems to be any more than the average immature teenager. Although I see his character representing the male chauvinistic mindset pre-1950s, as do I disapprove of his view of women to be sex objects, I agree with Negin as I never find him intentionally disrespecting them.
Immaturity and alienation are two themes I found to be central to the plot of this novel. Though Holden Caulfield does repeatedly display a very critical and seemingly misogynistic view of women, I believe this to be the result of his need to overcompensate for his lack of romantic experience and strong feelings of an inability to connect with anyone other than his siblings and Jane Gallagher on a deeper, more existential level. Just as an adolescent would brag to his or her friends about some older individual they were dating or some inappropriate activity they had engaged in such as the consumption of alcohol or cigarettes, it appears that the protagonist's constant efforts to belittle females he encounters are meant to mask his own insecurities and regrets. For example, in chapter 10 on page 92, Holden asks a group of women, "Would any of you girls care to dance? I didn’t ask them crudely or anything. Very suave, in fact. But God damn it, they thought that was a panic, too. They started giggling some more. I’m not kidding, they were three real morons. ‘C’mon,’ I said. ‘I’ll dance with you one at a time. All right? How ‘bout it? C’mon!’ I really felt like dancing." In this instance it is quite apparent that he is trying to make it appear as though his offering to dance with them is some charitable act. However, it can be inferred that these three ladies seemingly grant the protagonist's request out of pity, as they are said to be constantly surveying the room while dancing with the main character in what can only be assumed to be a search for more satisfying company. In reality, Holden Caulfield is incapable of following through with his intentions in the heat of the moment as seen in his rendezvous with Sunny and his romantic experience with Jane. In response to these "embarrassments", I think the main character tries to justify his actions to himself by twisting the interpretation so that the women are at fault. Due to some unresolved yearning for a relationship with someone who in his eyes is similar to himself in their mindset and personality, it seems that the protagonist feels that he is better than those for whom he claims to settle for. In an effort to understand his severe loneliness and depression the main character resorts to insulting women he sees as "phony", while praising those whom he believes are mature and deserving of his affection.
ReplyDeleteI agree with some of what my peers have mentioned about Holden's attitude towards women. Just as Negin had mentioned, Holden is inconsistent. However, I would like to point out, that Holden's attitute towards women may not be as inconsistent as everyone thinks. I noticed a trend whenever he encountered specific women. During this time, and as Mr. Rodgriguez mentioned, society was not dealing with the feminist movement. In other words, men still saw women as sex objects. Holden, though on the surface, seems like he may view women as sex objects because of society's views and because of his adolescence, actually gives women the chance to express their intellect. I believe the reason why he calls the three women at the bar "morons" and "boring", is because they ignored him; they refused to actually talk to him. Holden's encounter with Sunny the prostitute did not go as planned, but what surprised me was his desire for a conversation with her. Through the novel, he has so many chances to speak to women, which he takes, but they lack a certain intellectual and mature appeal that Holden longs for. In addition, to Quentin's last sentence of his comment; Holden only appreciates women and girls that can carry a decent conversation with him. In a way, it seems like Holden Caufield judges women based on their intellect. For example, Holden was able to have a good conversation with the nuns about literature. After they depart, he says, " I said I'd enjoyed talking to them a lot, too. I meant it, too" (Salinger 112). The difference between the nuns and the women at the bar, was that the three women had materialistic motives. The nuns were mature, something Holden appreciates.
ReplyDeleteIt has already been established, that Caufield is a different and unique teenager.Yes, he may describe himself as a "sex maniac" as Amy metnioned, but he actually cares about the intellectually capacity that women may have. He respects the women and girls in his life, who are educated. Holden respects and admires Jane because she was pure and innocent; he could spend quality time with her, whether it was playing chess or watching a "goddamn movie". He respects Phoebe because, in his words, he says " She's really smart... You'd like her" (Salinger 67). Holden respects the nuns, because they were able to talk about literature. He was able to express his thoughts about Romeo and Juliet, without them being judgmental towards him. Holden respects the women who have a psychological connection with him.
I do not think that Holden is a traditional male chauvinistic pig. I also do not believe that Holden is a misogynist. In fact, though he may directly and bluntly describe a women's features, he does not objectify them,"I think if you don't really like a girl, you shouldn't horse around with her at all, and if you do like her, then you're supposed to like her face, and if you like her face, you ought to be careful about doing crumby stuff to it, like squirting water all over it. It's really too bad that so much crumby stuff is a lot of fun sometimes" (Salinger 62). In my opinion, I think Holden sincerely believes that women should be loved and admired.
-Daphne Tortoles
I strongly agree with the last few statements Daphne addressed regarding Holden's perspective towards women. Throughout the novel, I perceived Holden to be a quite hypocritical; however, he also, at times, explained why he would build a phony character.
DeleteAt the time he was conversing with Mrs. Morrow, he began to "feel sort of sorry" (Salinger 56) that he had told her his name was Rudolf Schmidt. Clearly feeling bad for lying, the reason why he gave her that name was because he didn't feel like giving her his "whole life story," (Salinger 55). Although he went under a false identity with Mrs. Morrow, Holden did not verbally disrespect her in their conversation, it was more like he was getting a bang out of telling unreal stories in general. I don't believe that if it were to be Mr. Morrow that he struck up a conversation with, and if he'd act the same as his wife, Holden probably would have acted the same. Holden being able to lie about who he was is not because Mrs. Morrow was a woman. More over, I believe that it depended on how he was feeling. If he was in the mood to horse around, amusing himself and believed that he could pull off a lie with the person.
I believe that Holden is extremely interested in Jane, right when he talked about her with Stradlater. By constantly thinking, talking, and worrying about her, it seems as if he was going crazy and as if he had not thought about her for a long time. Surely, I believe Holden did not see Jane a sex object for he did not consider calling up Jane for a quick fix when he was horny. The way he described the time he got closest to "necking" Jane, I got the impression that at that moment he was trying to console Jane and not try to get in her pants. It seems as if she is more precious cause she really "knocked" him out. He talked in detail of how he was kissing her all over, but he avoided kissing her mouth. Also stating that he wouldn't have gotten to kiss her there even if he tried.
-Carla Alipit Francisco
Holden's view is generally not to kind towards women, and being this book was not written during or after the feminist movement as Daphne mentioned, perception of women in this era is different to that of today's women and how they are perceived.
ReplyDeleteHolden believes that women are driven by instinct and beloved that women are intrigued by superficial materialism. Holden seems to think this way because these were the women that Holden hanged out with.
In ch. 13 Holden says, "most girls are dumb and all, after you neck them for a while, you can really watch them losing their brains. You take a girl when she really gets passionate, she just hasn't any brains." This quote relates to what Daphne mentioned in that women were seen and thought as sex symbols and sex objects.
Women in the novel according to Holden are also only worried about is image. This is well evident when Holden takes Sally on a date, Holden is disturbed that Sally started talking to an Ivy League boy because in Holden's mind Sally only really talk to Ivy League people because she attends an Ivy League school.
-Jose (Tony) Delgado
I noticed that Holden demonstrates respect towards nuns, despite him also showing disgust towards some women. I like how Tony brings up the perception of women is different due to the feminist movements not being around to demonstrate awareness towards them. However, we have to consider that Holden is an inconsistent character and his thoughts towards women may be inconsistent as well. Holden doesn't seem to disrespect women but he appears to approach them with the same mental conflicts that drag him throughout the novel.
DeleteI agree with the comments above in that Holden contradicts his statements and actions frequently. For example, Holden states, “I guess he thought it was all right to do because it was only me that was in the room. I didn’t care, except that it’s pretty disgusting to watch somebody pick their nose” (Chapter 2, page 12). This is one of the reasons why I did not trust him as a narrator. Although age may be a factor regarding why this contradiction occurs, I believe that Holden’s statements regarding his youth instead demonstrate his reluctance to grow and mature. As a teenager, Holden, like many of the students, is at a transitioning phase from youth to adulthood. The idea of change scares Holden, given the fact that Holden was greatly traumatized by an event that brought significant change—Allie’s death. He comments on his youth frequently to remind himself of the youthful innocence he must uphold and to shield him from the reality of growing up.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the prep school, I also believe that Holden’s inability to stay at a prep school initially shows his irresponsibility as a student. This was another reason why I did not trust him as a narrator. However, it also demonstrates his inability to conform to the standards set by the school. As noted by one of my peers, prep schools are known to be strict in regards to dress code and behavior. The fact that Holden was unable to settle in one prep school shows his rebellious nature as a growing teenager.
-Abigail Zaratan
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteQuentin's analysis regarding women is very similar to what I was thinking. Holden Caulfield’s inabilities make him fall short and as a result, he seems to constantly face embarrassment or a restriction to naturally have a conversation flow when he interacts with women. From what I have read throughout the novel, I find the narrator's attitude toward women to be nature to his own beliefs and characteristics. In addition, the fact that he respects those women who prove to be intellectually superior compared to the rest of women in the world such as those mentioned by Quentin shows he is transitioning between adolescence and adulthood. By showing maturity in this manner, I simply think the narrator, Holden Caulfield admires women who respect themselves and care for a higher intellectual status versus those who just throw their bodies at a person or never approaches the narrator's standards. In essence, this is why he may have communicated with individuals such as those at the bar or Sunny with such a lackadaisical attitude. There may be more of Caulfield that meets the eye and I am curious to see exactly what it is as the novel progresses. So to answer Mr. Rodriguez’s question I would have to say his seemingly misogynist attitude toward women would be an inaccurate interpretation of the narrator’s true perspective surrounding women, but I find him to enjoy and appreciate more mindful discussions with those of the opposite sex.
ReplyDeleteOn the surface of the novel, yes, it could be interpreted that Holden carries a disrespect towards women. We see that throughout the novel he has this need to phone different women all the time. While my initial thoughts were that he did this simply to have sex, Holden proves that when he does get the opportunity to have a conversation with a woman, he yearns for something more. In the novel, on Holden's date with old Sally he is able to have what seems to be, a genuine conversation with her, up until the point where he goes mad and suggests that they run away together. The line that I found the most interesting is when he states, "The terrible part, though, is that I meant it when I asked her. That's the terrible part. I swear to God I'm a madman." (Salinger 149) I wondered why Holden's encounter with Sally triggered this sort of need to guarantee that she would be there for him, even after just one date. I would like to point out though that after his slip up with Sally, he wanted to phone Jane again.
ReplyDeleteAs Mr.Rodriguez has pointed out, this novel is set place before any type of feminist movement. Teenage boys in general I feel, have this tendency to have their own opinions about woman classifying them to however they want with no filter. Holden has no problem calling the women he meets things such as "witches" or judging them on their appearances. Like my peers have mentioned, the thing that separated Jane from other women is that she is innocent and he received the opportunity to get to know her on a deeper level. Holden is particularly disgusted to the thought that Jane and Stradlater might have done something in the back of a car. I believe that the reason behind this is because Holden saw Jane as someone respectable and wanted to keep that image of her safe in his mind. SImilar to his encounters with the nuns, Holden respected them and gave him his attention because they were doing more with their lives than just being the kind of women that society expected them to be at the time. I believe that Holden would give any woman his time given a genuine opportunity and formulated respect for them. I feel that Holden's nature to judge the women he meets is just a natural instinct when meeting someone, but also is an attitude set forth by society during this period of time.
-Allison Baciles
Finally, the opportunity to go on a feminist tirade. Through out my experience reading this novel, I've tried to understand Holden's confusing feelings about women; whether he truly respects them but still gives in to the sexist beliefs of the era, or if he is solely a misogynistic follower. As others have mentioned before, Holden does approach women with a suave attitude, in the hopes of persuading and alluring, but at some moments the protagonist comes to terms with his innermost thoughts on how the women must feel. I believe that the scene is when Holden goes to a club, that he asks himself what would happen to all of the women there. At this moment I felt that Holden sincerely cared about the future of women that seemingly degrade themselves at clubs and other social ventures, in the hopes to meet men and get married. However, in a contradictory sense, Holden himself participates in the open degradation of women countless times in the text. Attempting to buy older women (some married) drinks even when he himself is not old enough to enter a bar, and getting his mind off of Jane by messing around with other random women are all shallow ways in which Holden sets his character out to look like the prejudiced man most were at the time.
ReplyDelete-Savannah Mojica
As many of my peers have mentioned, Holden shows disrespect towards women multiple times throughout the novel. On page 137, when describing girls waiting for their dates, Holden makes it very clear that he has no problem judging these girls, describing some as "swell" and others as "bitches." However, his disrespect is not intentionally directed towards women. On that same page, Holden criticizes the girls' dates without even seeing them, assuming that these boys are "mean" and "never read books" and "are boring as hell." Holden is not necessarily misogynistic, but rather childish. His actions are simply that of a rebellious teenager. He is rude to just about anyone he meets and believes he has them figured out with only a small observation.
ReplyDeleteI found it interesting and almost comical that Holden regards himself as a "sex maniac" while at the same time can't even follow through with having any contact at all with Sunny, a hired prostitute. Albeit, I can somewhat understand the situation he was in he where he "felt more depressed than sexy, if you want to know the truth" (Salinger 96). Holden, as other students have pointed out, has confusion and inconsistencies that give readers the idea that he has no respect for women with his over analytical antics when describing the women he sees and meets throughout the novel. On the contrary, I agree with Daphne and her opinion that Holden believes that women deserve to be loved and admired. Often in the novel when a new female character is introduced, Holden would give them a chance for them to prove whether or not their worth his time. He even has this innocence to him whenever he "gets pretty close to doing it with a girl", he has no idea when to commit or back off. This shows that Holden regards females with respect and is concerned for their feelings instead of doing what "most guys do" and keep on going. In my opinion Holden is a caring and innocent teenager who is confused about what his ideals and opinions are on the world around him. He just needs to change his selection of women to converse with, because night club strangers and prostitutes seem to not be working for him.
ReplyDelete-Kyle Maravillas
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ReplyDeleteAs said before, Holden holds a resentment towards everyone but specifically those who thin they are better than everyone or ave a skill and show it off. I found it really interesting to see the different ways he treated the women because later I found out it had to do more if they were humble. The way he talked to the nuns and the prostitute Sunny because they didn't treat him as if he were less than them. Contrary to the women in the Lavender room who thought that they were better because they were older than him and just dancing with him out of pity. It is obvious that Holden dislikes that characteristic in both men and women thus him reacting so negatively to both when they show that trait around him.
ReplyDeleteAs said before, Holden holds a resentment towards everyone but specifically those who thin they are better than everyone or ave a skill and show it off. I found it really interesting to see the different ways he treated the women because later I found out it had to do more if they were humble. The way he talked to the nuns and the prostitute Sunny because they didn't treat him as if he were less than them. Contrary to the women in the Lavender room who thought that they were better because they were older than him and just dancing with him out of pity. It is obvious that Holden dislikes that characteristic in both men and women thus him reacting so negatively to both when they show that trait around him.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I don't think Holden is a misogynist, I just think he has had so many experiences, good and bad with women, and people in general, that he can't think of them like your average person does. I am probably posting this comment really too late for it to matter, but I just felt like I would try and give my two cents and see if anyone felt either the same, or similarly to me, or could at least see where I was coming from in this point. I personally can say that I feel this way sometimes, not hateful towards others, just rebelliously indifferent, as if me being indifferent is more controversial than having an opinion.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the comments made by my peers, I agree with Amy that innocence plays a role in Holden's deception of women. One of the women that Holden is fond of is Jane Gallagher, as he discussed the things they did when they were with each other. For example, they went to the movies and held hands, and he also stated that he has never kissed Jane. Although this can be one inference made, I also agree with other posts that Holden is inconsistent and he repeatedly contradicts himself. An example of this was the terms he used to describe the women in the nightclub, referring to them as "witches" and "ugly." Although Holden does have good and bad experiences with women as stated by Arnold, I agree with him that he is not a misogynist. The respect he also holds for his little sister Phoebe is evident that he is not always negative toward the thought of women. I also believe that his lack of sexual relations play a role on how Holden views women. Holden was never able to engage in any sexual acts, such as when he was with the prostitute Sunny. All Holden did was have a conversation with her. Overall, I feel that even though Holden did make remarks at times, he is very respectful of women and any characteristic that he hates are both present in men and women.
ReplyDelete-Brian Arlantico
When looking at Caulfield and his thoughts of women, he addresses them in a very crude manner describing them as "morons" or "ugly" and such. Although these are harsh terms being thrown around, I believe that it is because Caulfield has an issue with people he describes as "phonies." It is evident that Caulfield has little to no tolerance for phonies. Early in the novel it is shown that Caulfield left Elkton Hills because there were many people there he considered to be phonies. Overall Caulfield is not a misogynist because evidently he puts some on a pedestal, more specifically Jane Gallagher. The reasoning behind this is simple, Caulfield has an infatuation with her and because of this describes her in a very positive manner. It is also evident that Caulfield holds much respect for his younger sister Phoebe because during his time in Manhattan he considers phoning her and even tries to go see her at an ice skating rink before his date with Sally. Overall, Caulfield's seemingly negative view towards women is rooted in his problem with "phonies" because really the only time Caulfield talks negatively of a women or anyone in that matter is because he believes them to be phonies.
ReplyDelete-Angel Cortez
An important aspect to the story to consider before analyzing Holden’s perception of women is the time period it is set in. The book takes place in a time where men had predetermined ideas about how women should behave that downgraded their social standing. As a result, Holden is a man that still has these ideas in his mind. Throughout the book, he has varying interactions with different women he encounters. In some cases he can be overly critical and borderline sexist while other times he praises them immensely. One example of Holden’s contrasting treatment of women can be seen when he met the group of ladies in the Lavender Room nightclub compared to the nuns he encounters a few chapters later. In the nightclub, he describes the three women as “witches” and “giggling like morons” despite the fact that he knew nothing about them. The aforementioned generalizations of women could have influenced Holden’s negative impression of the women he just met. However, the nuns in chapter 15 do not suffer the same treatment as the women in the club. Instead, he treats them with compassion and even donates ten dollars for their collection and offers to pay their bill at the diner. I believe that his reason for being so nice to the nuns is because they were innocent and sweet, which is similar to his little sister Phoebe. Holden appreciates the fact the some people are as nice as the sister he loves so much.
ReplyDeleteJane Gallagher is a character that receives a mixture of both praise and ridicule. Even though Holden enjoys her company and is shown to think of her often (e.g. liking when she places her hand on the back of his neck), he makes remarks about how she is not beautiful and despises her mother. A possible reason for the mixed treatment is because since are close friends, Holden believes that he can criticize her and she would be fine with it even though other women would find that offensive.
In conclusion, it is difficult to determine of Holden truly does hate or not hate women based on his wide range of treatment for women he meets.
- Kelvin Alvero
I don't think Holden specifically hates females since he actively insults male characters in similar ways so it is not exclusive to women. However right now I want to talk about Jane Gallagher. Holden's memories of her usually included playing checkers with her and letting her touch the back of his neck. All of these are only innocent activities and gestures so Holden thought of her in an innocent way. However hearing that she was Stradlater's date gave anything but an innocent vibe. Think of it like having a childhood friend that you played with and then found out something not innocent about her. It's surprising and would go against what you usually thought about them. The other girl Holden sees in an innocent and positive manner is his younger sister Phoebe.
ReplyDelete~Sofia Alduenda
As Daphne articulated, Holden does search for the level of intellect women carry but has discovered that the majority were not at the level he was probably hoping for. We do see his inconsistency through his view towards women, but there is also the pattern that he has the utmost respect for the women who have a significant meaning to his life. Take his sister Phoebe, his mother, and Jane into perspective: he always speak highly of them and expresses certain experiences he had with those women with a feeling of warmth and appreciation. He also had a high level of respect and compassion he had towards the nuns because he understood they were good people attempting to do good for this world. So perhaps Holden may be a misogynist to women, but that is only because he keeps his circle of women in his life is very exclusive because they must have a great significance or impact in his life.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Holden may be a misogynist in some cases because during this era women were treated with immense inequality. I was researching the feminist movement during the fifties and one crucial piece was women were filing lawsuits that would cause them to have the rights of receiving birth control pills without obstruction. Although this right did not pass until 1960, maybe this could be a significance to the idea of how many women in the book are perceived as sex objects and nothing more. Not only that, but during this era women were aiming to receive higher education not for the reason to succeed as elaborate intellectuals, but to actually find a husband in college. Perhaps that is also why Holden describes the majority of women he has come across in the book as "boring", "dopey", and "morons".
-Brandon Sanchez
I am sometimes taken back by Holden’s blunt comments on the women in the novel. I’d like to think it is because Holden is representative of a male teenager in the 1950’s who is uneducated on why objectifying women is wrong. I feel like he tends to use a lot of girls and he doesn’t seem to treat them seriously. Like that one girl he took to see a play with and wanted to elope with, he said he didn’t think he would’ve ever followed through with that plan, but he meant it at the time. His actions toward women can be very rash and impulsive, driven by the spur of the moment. He can be as cynical and distrustful of women as with the guys he went to school with.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think he disrespected and lied to the woman on the train because of her gender, but because he didn’t like her son ultimately. He doesn’t disrespect all women, he is kind towards his little sister in the way he holds her on a pedestal and is kind towards the nuns. But what I can say is that the way he views women isn’t entirely right. I feel like he doesn’t know how to deal with women. He is still immature in a sense.
I was somewhat in awe with the way he talked about Jane Gallagher. He seems protective of her, especially protective of the innocent image he has of her. Their relationship was very innocent, I think it was a pure kind of love. It wasn’t tainted by the realities of life but he held her when she cried and remembered that she kept her kings in a row when they played checkers. She was a constant in his life and I think he wanted to protect his memories of her; he wanted her to be the same girl those summers ago.
-Abegail Caraulia
Its tough to see Holden in this sense as he is awfully blunt and rude towards both men and women throughout the entire book. However, Holden does make a lot of comments on the outward appearances of many women, both good and bad. It shows an interesting way that males looked at females at this time where looks were a big majority of how people judged some women. He tends to make large remarks saying either that they are very hot or pretty ugly.
ReplyDeleteIt seems quite obvious that Jane is very special to Holden. Holden sees all the other girls more objectively as stated above based on their looks. But Jane is always different because he always brings up comments about their past instead of her charm. He also shows his care for her in how he always remembers her and her little quirks such as the kings in checkers. Also in how he gets uncharacteristically worked up by Stradlater when he talks about Jane.
-Andrew Son
Holden does not hate women nor does he put them on a pedestal. There are some women he speaks highly of, such as his younger sister Phoebe. He describes how smart, funny, and laidback Phoebe is and how he really enjoys spending time with her. But there are moments where Holden uses women in a sexual demeanor. For example, when Holden checked into the hotel in New York City he exclaimed, "After a while I sat down in a chair and smoked a couple of cigarettes. I was feeling pretty horny." In this instance Holden calls a girl named Faith Cavendish in an attempt for her to 'get cocktails' with him. It is evident that Holden wanted Faith to sleep with him.
ReplyDeleteAs Joseph Liang stated, Holden Caulfield is not a misogynist. I believe that he does not put females down nor place them on a pedestal. He judges females the way they express or portray themselves that Holden sees. As I analyzed the way Holden spoke to the mother of his fellow Pencey classmate, I believe he did not disrespect her because she is a woman. Holden was already in a bad mood when he left Pencey when he yelled, "Sleep tight, ya morons!" I'll bet I woke up every bastard on the whole floor" (Chapter 8 Page 52). In addition, it is clear that Holden was not too fond of the three women from Seattle in the nightclub because he describes them as "ugly", "boring", "ignorant", etc. Despite the way Holden described and insulted them, he still approached them kindly and asked them to dance. In contrast, Holden seems to hold a special place in his heart for his younger sister named Phoebe and Jane Gallagher. The way Holden speaks highly of his younger sister proves the amount of love and care he has towards her. It is also clear that Jane was compared differently than other females that Holden speaks about. He always described her in a positive manner and seemed to think about her all the time. The way he saw Jane was special because he did not view or say any good things even about his own mother.
ReplyDelete-Camryn Ferrer
i do not believe Holden is a misogynist. he does in the novel criticize and describe women in derogatory ways, but he also seems to do the same to the men in the novel. on the train he lies to the mother of a Pencey student, but not because she is a woman. or maybe he does. he says "You take somebody’s mother, all they want to hear is about what a hot-shot their son is” (63). He lies to her for his own amusement. and he lies to her because he knows most mothers love to hear how great their son or daughter is. it just makes them feel good. he lies to her not specifically because he doesn't respect her or because shes a woman, but because she is a mother with a son.
ReplyDeletein the nightclub, he does describe the three women with derogatory terms, but while reading it i did not single out his actions to be misogynistic or ill intended just because they were women. reading that scene, and analyzing how the women acted, they seem like people Holden would typically dislike. if a man acted that way he would think just the same about him as he did with the women.
finally, i love the way he talks about Jane. it is typical to talk highly of someone you like, but the way Holden does it is different. he exposes everything. he admits to liking her in very innocent ways. he describes her in a kind manner and gets jealous and offended when he suspects that her and Stradlater did something in his car. he describes all the little things he notices about her, and that is what reveals how special she is to him. Holden in my opinion is not a woman hating teenage boy. he is very truthful about how he perceives people, and that does not change to make the women seem more appealing in the novel.
I agree with many of my peers on the point that Holden's snide remarks and comments about certain women come off as inappropriate and rude. Furthermore, these comments made by the narrator further lead me to grow a disliking towards Holden. However, after rethinking and reading my peers' comments, I must say that I can agree with Allison Bacilles with the fact that Holden is, indeed, a teenage boy and it is inevitable for him to have these thoughts about women. In addition, the time period also has an important role in the way Holden views women because it is before feminism was brought to attention to society. Although he made very rude comments about women like the three women at the bar and D.B.'s ex, just to name a few, I was always left surprised and almost in awe when he described and thought of Jane Gallagher and his sister, Phoebe. I can admit that I am not very fond of Holden as a person, but the way he spoke of Jane and his sister made me like his character a little more. It made me see Holden in a different light, one that I am much more fond of. It is true that Holden's view of women is very random, but I agree with Daphne Tortoles with the idea that there seemed to be a pattern between the women Holden respects and disrespects, and that their intellectual capacity was an important factor in that decision.
ReplyDeleteHolden's encounter with the prostitute at the hotel he stayed at led me to believe that although he may think or speak poorly of women at times, he still has kept his innocence and has never disrespected a woman physically or sexually. This is evident with the fact that he decided against doing anything with the prostitute, but instead opted for having a conversation with her. Furthermore, he seemed disgusted with the idea that Jane did anything with Stradler in the car, leading me to believe that Holden still, in a way, has some sort of respect for women.
In response to Mr. Rodriguez, I do not think Holden is a misogynist or hates women. But he also does not exactly put them on a pedestal, unless you consider his view of Jane and Phoebe that way. The way i see it, Holden just greatly respects these two women, amongst others such as the nuns.
-Catalina Isip
As posts above said, I don't believe that Holden is a misogynist or hates women. He seems to judge men and women the same throughout the novel. Although he may speak of some women a particular way he never talks bad about Phoebe or Jane Gallagher. It is clear that he loves his little sister Phoebe a lot. He really cares for her and even says she is the smartest of the family. Also, while Holden was in New York he tried to call Phoebe and even went to see her one night at their house. He bought her that record that cost him five dollars but he didn't care how much it was because it was for Phoebe. He also respects Jane Gallagher a lot, he thinks very highly of her. He and Jane had been friends since they were kids and when he knew that his roommate Stradlater and Jane may be together he got jealous and couldn't imagine them being together. It seems like he is very protective over her and has good intentions. On page 44 he says, "I kept thinking about Jane, and about Stradlater having a date with her and all. It made me so nervous I nearly went crazy."
ReplyDeleteAlso, the moment at the hotel with Holden and the prostitute, it is clear that he had no bad intentions with her. He just wanted to talk and was going to pay her as he said on page 125, "I'll pay you and all, but do you mind very much if we don't do it?" He didn't take advantage of her or anything, he kept his innocence and good intentions.
I agree with many of my peers. Even though Holden constantly talks bad about woman, calling them "bitches", "ugly", or "dumb", I don't think he hates woman at all. If anything, I believe he supports and loves women. I personally feel that Holden has such respect for woman that it angers him or depresses him when they don't live up to their potential. Take the prostiute, Sunny for example, throughout the encounter between Sonny and Holden, Holden refers to Sonny as depressing and feels bad for her because she has to have sex for money and instead of having sex with he, he suggest that they just talk. This encounter with Sonny shows both the sides of Holden where he degrades woman, yet in a way that it makes the readers believe that he has respect and only wants better for woman.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the way he idolizes Jane and Pheobe only continues to prove that Holden is not a "woman hater", he's just has a strong, judgemental mind that criticizes everything and everyone. No one is good enough or perfect for Holden and that's what makes him bad mouth certain things like movies, college boys, religion and woman. No one should take anything Holden says personally.
-Breana Barnes
I find Holden's relationship with females very intriguing. He has a cynical view towards them but I believe he does not dislike them and it is evident. through his deep fondness of Phoebe and Jane Gallagher. It has been quite common everytime Holden goes to a nightclub he finds women and calls the "ugly" and really doesn't give a care in the world about them howevever whenever he is with Phoebe it is like Holden is a whole new person. holden carws deeply for Phoebe and I believe his love for her changes him for the better. Holden goes above and beyond to do anything for Phoebe buying her a record, sneeking in at night to visit her, and deciding to not run way out west in order to make Phoebe happy and stay in New York. Also, my peer mentioned and important event when Holden interacts with the prostitute that Maurice brings to his hotel room, rather than "necking" with her he just wants to talk. This action is so rare even in todays modern society. Holden shows true respect by not taking advantage of her and being a gentlemen about it, even though he got beat up by Maurice. To conclude I believe Holden is not a misogynist, he does have a cynical view towards them always questioning woman and their actions but, may do the unordinary for women. -Mariana Velasco
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThroughout reading this novel, Holden's encounters multiple women. Considering that this novel was set before the Feminist Movement, I believe JD Salinger displays women as less prominent in society and especially inferior to men. Holden's view of women conveys that they mostly care about materialistic things and money. Salinger uncovers that Holden believes women should be loved and appreciated. This can be supported by Holden's rejection of sex because it is known to be an act of objectifying women. Some women in this novel are seen in clubs and bars. One woman in particular, Sunny, is understood to be working as a prostitute. I believe that Holden looks down on women, however part of Holden wants to impress the females he meets. For example, when Holden goes into the Lavender Room bar located inside one of the hotels, he introduces himself to three women about his age. He lies about his age in order to appeal to them and to make himself feel grown up. In contrast, Holden's beliefs towards women are different when it comes to his Jane and his little sister, Phoebe. Unlike the other female characters, Holden expresses his feelings and admiration for these two characters. Given that Phoebe is his little sister, readers know that Phoebe and Holden know about each other very well. Salinger communicates Holden's love for Phoebe when he describes Holden's inner thoughts about her and ends the novel with Holden's experience with Phoebe. Jane, on the other hand, was one of the few girls whom Holden respected and admired. Although she never appears physically in the novel, Salinger shares Holden's curiosity, concern, and love for Jane as she is repeatedly mentioned and thought about by Holden.
ReplyDeleteAll in all, I do not believe Holden despises women. I believe he has mixed feelings about them. Because the setting was prior to the Feminist Movement, Holden understood the misconception of women being classified as sex objects. I do not believe that he puts women on a pedestal either. Holden's views of different women in the story are all inconsistent.
-Micah Rodriguez
Because of the negative interactions that he has had with multiple women, he could come off as disrespectful towards women. On the other hand, he is sensitive when it comes to be about certain women. I do not believe that Holden is misogynistic. The two women or girls that is evident to respect is his little sister Phoebe and Jane Gallagher, but Holden was only able to describe Jane, readers have never met her and I wish that we did. Holden might only able to build respect and eventually become vulnerable only to the women that he takes time to get to know or already has some sort of a relationship with. This is an example of when he was in the bar and he encounters the three women. His thoughts about these women are very rude, yet at the end of the night he offers to pay for their drinks. Also with the prostitute at the hotel, he does not end up having sexual intercourse with her. I think that at the moment he asked for a prostitute he was just feeling alone and a maybe a little ashamed that he is still a virgin unlike many people that he knows, but it is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Holden knows in his heart that sexual intercourse should be with someone he deeply cares about and I think that a little part of him is upset that sex could just be for fun. His actions towards women shows how is views are very erratic.
ReplyDelete-Maya Ruane
Holden's view of women in general is not too kind. He doesn't feel that they are smart, nor hold any depth of character. He believes that women would just be driven by instinct and the money men can offer them. Holden's view on women stems from his experiences. He spends time with strippers and women of that nature and tends to generalize trends among a common people. He seems to impose this negative outlook only on a certain company of women. The "phonies". In chapter 13, he states "I mean most girls are so dumb and all. After you neck them for a while, you can really watch them losing their brains." On the other hand, he tends to have a different outlook on women who are genuine. His love for his little sister, Phoebe, is unconditional and striking. She is the only person that Holden is connected to psychologically.He also seems to have a strong, positive attitude toward Jane Gallagher. We see this when Holden, a pacifist, fights Stradlater when Stradlater degrades Jane by not knowing her name and having her in the back of the car.
ReplyDeleteHolden stereotypes women based on their age. He seems to favor younger girls and see them as innocent youth, while he is quick to judge an older woman claiming that they lack brains or are simply a prostitute. This judgement fits into the theme of the book as Holden feels it is his call to be the Catcher in the Rye, or in other words, to preserve the joyous youth. This predisposition leads me to believe that Holden hates the "phony" women, but that he is quick to judge by outside appearance weather they fit into that category or not. He does not subject all older women to this stereotype, though, as evidenced by his interactions with the nuns. He helps them with their suitcases, gives them money, and has an intellectual conversation about literature with them.
-Sarah Schumacher
I believe that Holden neither hates nor loves women. Throughout the book, he is constantly seeking the company from others. He stirs up conversation with his cab drivers, people at bars, and even calls up people he hasn't had the greatest relationship with. I believe his comments towards woman aren't too much because he hates them, but because they aren't the best company. In response to his comments about women, he talks about the guys as well. He describes both Ackley and Stradlater as "slobs" in their own ways and his previous roommate at another school as boring. I really don't believe that he hates women because he actually enjoyed the company of the nuns he met at the diner in a train station.
ReplyDeleteIn response to the way he perceives Jane, I believe Holden is truly in love with her. He remembers every little detail around her and in his eyes she's just about perfect. He may see other girls as good looking or cute, but no one was described like Jane was. He goes crazy for everything with her including her dancing, hand holding, and even what she does during checkers. However, I think he wants Jane and only her. He wants no part to anything that's around her including her parents.
I don't believe Holden has a negative disposition towards woman. Rather, I believe he holds a negative disposition towards everybody. His personality and interactions make him out to be a very antisocial character and he shows the same contempt to men in the story as he does to women. The way he talks about the three women in the club reveals more about how he feels about people than how he feels about women specifically. Holden reveal his dislike of unintelligent people because he can hardly hold a conversation with them. These women show no real interest in Holden either, so it makes sense that he talks about them the way he does.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, Holden is head over heals in love with Jane Gallagher, although he doesn't seem to realize it. He brings her up multiple times in a tone that almost seems like melancholy longing. He spends nearly the entirety of chapter 11 talking about her and reveals their relationship more clearly to the reader. Holden also becomes extremely jealous when his Stradlater suggests that he had his way with Jane. Holden ends up furious at the thought that his childhood crush has been stolen from him by his brutish roommate. I feel kind of bad for Holden at this point, because Jane seems to be the only person outside of his family that he"s ever developed a real relationship with
Although Holden holds misogynistic views and shares negative thoughts towards women, he is not a misogynist. He enjoys talking to women that are either older than him or younger than him and feels he can have real conversations without them turning out to be phonies. Woman who he has had successful conversations with include Ernests mom, Pheobe, the nuns, and, although she never appeared in the novel, Jane. A recognizable pattern is that he sees every woman character in the novel that is around his age group as someone to "neck" with. In chapter 13, Holden also shares with us that he is a sex maniac, but when Sunny goes to his room he simply wants to talk. This change of events proves to us that Holden cares about who he has sex with and does not want to lose his virginity to a prostitute. If Holden were truly a misogynist, he would despise talking to women and would not respect Jane and Pheobe as much as he does.
ReplyDelete-Mat Fernandez
DeleteI believe Holden is a very narcissistic person. Within the story he frequently compares himself to those around him, and he comes out on top every time. With this said, Holden is not misogynistic as much as he is egotistical. Holden does describe women mainly off of their appearance and sex appeal; however, he does the same with men. Ernest Morrow's mother was deemed "good looking" by Holden, even though she was a middle aged woman. In Holden's opinion Stradlater was also a person who could "give/get the time" easily. In this way, I feel that Holden is one who is very concerned with appearances, and because of that it seems he judges women a little harsher since they are supposed to be beautiful and appealing.
ReplyDeleteHis romanticized descriptions or recollections with Jane are from his infatuation with her while they were neighbors. Holden remembers her fondly for the summers they spent together. Every person has someone they remember so fondly in their minds, a loved one who can do no wrong. He never reminisced about his dates with Sally Hayes the way he does about his checkers match with Jane. In essence, she is his goddess. Perhaps not the most beautiful, but definitely the one he considers worthy of a good time.
-Rhiane Brooks
I believe Holden is so quick to judge the women he encounters with because when ever he sees a women he begins to describe her and he judges then based on how they appear and but once they begin tasking to holden he begins to really listen and he begins to see what the women really is. Holden is just to quick to judge but then changes how he thinks about the women once they start talking to eachother
ReplyDelete-Joshua Juarez
I find in Holden the disability to connect with other people. His use of language towards women for example is very dry and very ignorant. I think he just looks down at them because he does not get what he wants. For example when he did not get ''necked'' it really disturbed him. I think that Holden does not respect women because he refers to them as ''stupid.'' Holden knows the way he treats women is miserable but he laughs about it and keeps on going, to me that makes me think that he is entertained by treating women in such a poor way.
ReplyDeleteEven though Holden uses derogatory slurs while referring to women throughout the novel, I found that he might have done this as a coping mechanism because he struggled a lot to communicate with women and to hold stable relationships or even friendships with them. The only women he is heard talking respectfully about is his little sister, Phoebe, and Jane Gallagher. I think that Holden was so mad about Stradlater going out with Jane because he had this perfect image of her, of how she was when they had spent all that time together, and she was the first girl that he had a crush on, by seeing Stradlater taking her out and not even caring about what her name was, Holden got angry because she was a very special girl to him, he was truly in love with the idea of her.
ReplyDeleteAs a teenager, I also think that Holden mistreated women or thought of them as simply objects because of the historic background of the novel, being set in the 1950s, it was a time when everyone had the idea that women should act and dress a certain way, and if his roommates treated women a certain way, even though it wasn't right, it was normal for him just like everyone else to do.
-Elisa Gonzalez
I believe Holden has mixed feelings about women. Some women like Sally Hayes and Bernice Krebs he views as ignorant because all they do are lousy things with men. On the other hand, Holden describes and portrays Jane Gallagher, with great detail, as an angelic figure. He says that she is kind, innocent, gentle, wonderful, and loving, making her an ideal woman. Jane doesn't appear in the story except when Stradlater goes out on a date with her, Holden just talks about spending a lot of time with her two summers ago. When it comes to Holden talking to women, I feel as though he is awkward and nervous around them. For example, when Holden gets the opportunity to say hi to Jane, he decides not to because he isn't in the mood. Upon reflection, however, he can strike up a good conversation with women as evidenced by his chat with the woman on the train. Maybe he is just frightened to talk to Jane because he really likes her. Also, Holden assessed himself as a "sex maniac," even though he doesn't have experience. I think he deeply wants to have a nice girlfriend in which he can share feelings and intimacy with, but that he is also fearful of doing so.
ReplyDelete-Shalin Nirmal
I do not believe Holden dislikes women. I think his negative interactions with most of the women in the novel just come from his alienated and judgemental personality in general. The same negativity displayed toward women is the same negativity he displays towards the majority of people he interacts with. Though he insults the three women at the club, he still goes over to there tables and offers to dance with all of them. In the scene with Sunny, postitutes normally get ridiculed by society but Holden does not judge her and just decides to talk to her.If he was fully discriminatory against women, I believe he wouldn't have gone on the date with Sally Hayes, and only lashes out at her because she does not support or agree with his idea of running away with her. He does show respect for Jane and Phoebe as well as show some respect for Mr. Spencer's wife always commenting on how nice she is. Overall, Holden's criticism of women just comes from his judgemental personality, and not towards women specifically. The negativity maily is evident if a person does something that is not to his liking or to what he expects.
ReplyDeleteI personally do not believe that Holden despises women, but as my other peers say, Holden has mixed feelings about women he encounters. When Holden encounters three girls at the night club he calls them "stupid" and "witches" because he probably felt anxious and insecure about himself and that was why he puts himself in the same position as the ducks. Furthermore, I think that Holden has mixed feelings about girls because he says that he does not understand sex and this shows his confusion when he says, "You never know where the hell you are" (p. 70). The whole concept of sex confuses Holden and his tone seems immature as he explains about sex since he thought there are a set of rules. The fact that Holden does not have knowledge about the whole concept shows that he will develop into adult life slowly. As he was talking about sex Holden shows his judgmental character since he criticizes girls based off their appearances. Holden admits this clearly when he says that if one likes a girl they are supposed to like her face. I always questioned how his relationship would turn out with Jane. Since the start of the book and in the middle Holden grows to be more fond of her even if he has not met her in person. It is more evident that Holden may grow a strong affection to her since it seems as if he has a crush on her.
ReplyDeleteIn my own understanding of Holden Caulfield, I do not see him as a misogynist. His actions towards women are of the same towards men. We have seen and come to know one of Holden’s characteristics is that of a judgemental person. His negative mindset appears to portray many of his friends, acquaintances, classmates, and many others in a critical manner. Evidently he has disapproved of many simply by their actions and their appearances. In several instances he has concluded many of his classmates and roommates as “morons”, a word that indicates stupidity. On the other hand for women that he meets throughout the book, he simply criticizes them based off of their appearance, their beauty. This can be seen as described by Mr. Rodriguez in the chapter of when Holden involves himself with the three women from Seattle. Even with Sally, Mrs. Morrow, and Jane Gallagher. All instances do not appear to display Holden as putting down women, it simply is part of his character to analyze them and judge them for who they appear to be.
ReplyDeleteThe event of which Holden was in the nightclub, Holden simply described to the readers his own perspective of each one of them. He has done so with not only just women but for men as well as he had described several of his past schoolmates and roommates. For instance, Stradlater was described to be a handsome guy, which he had been displayed as. Ackley, who appeared to be a nuisance to Holden, which he played around with a lot. Many of the guys Holden had acquainted himself with were often called as “morons” by Holden as well. To continue, the same attitude by Holden took place, he applied his own habits and judged the ladies based off their appearances. Holden had described the blonde, Bernice, to be cute, while the other two, Marty and Laverne, had to be ugly and not attractive. Holden had also stated that they were “sort of stupid”, idiots.
On the other hand with Sally, he had found her to be attractive but she was a phony annoying girl. There were things about her of which Holden found annoying, but he dealt with her because she was attractive and he was in longing to spend time with someone. This is also evidenced in the beginning when he left Pency and attempted to get cocktails with Mrs. Morrow. He had first saw her as attractive at first glimpse before conversing with her. Here he had simply played off of knowing her son and gave her false information simply to amuse himself as he knew that all she would be interested in hearing was information about her son. As he yearned for a companion, he desperately continued to converse with her by lying and describing false facts about her son. And, Holden’s what appears to be obsession of Jane Gallagher, he had appeared to respect her, based off his description of the times he spent with her.
I’d also like to point out that Holden had admitted that there were instances of which he had the opportunity to lose his virginity to girls, the occurrence with Sunny and others that were not described. But Holden chose differently. He also described that unlike Stradler, where he persistently engages his companion even when they say “no”, Holden stops and isn’t forceful when it comes to sexual relations. It all depends on the girls, how they truly are, and how they appear to be, on how Holden would treat them.
-Rendell Miguel
When Holden is lying to the mom of one of his peers, I do not think he is not showing her too much respect because she is a woman but rather because she is the mother of one of his peers and she seems to think so highly of her son while Holden thinks poorly of him. I personally do not think he hates woman I think he does not understand them and when he is staying in the hotel he has the opportunity to basically take advantage of a female but instead doesn't and feels sorry for her and instead wants to have a chat with her. However, there are times when he is degrading woman and considers them "stupid" however, many boys are like that towards girls today and vice Versa. I think both sexes think they're better than the other one. Holden sees Jane as an angel, she's pure innocence, he puts her on a pedestal because she holds his innocence. Though out the book he has hatred towards everyone and not just woman, I believe he is just lost in the world, and has not yet learned how to act.
ReplyDelete- Briana Rios
Throughout the novel Holden establishes crucial behavior towards women. We can see in some situations that he seems to take his anger out on women. In the scene where he is on the train and his lying to the mother of a fellow penny student, I believe he is not lying just because she’s a women but because he is humiliated about the fact that he got kicked out of Pencey and had just got in a fight with his roommate. However he did lie about her son but he did not disrespect him, in fact he was telling her good things abut him which made her proud. He may have lied to her but I don’t feel like he intentionally did it, he was trying to prevent embarrassment to himself and her son. Holden has inconsistent attitude, as my peers have mentioned, which shapes his character towards women.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden is talking to the three women at the bar and judges them by calling them mean names and talking in a foul language to them, he can be looked at as disrespectful to women during that time. Like any other teenage boy he began to judge appearance and the way they danced so he can have the best one. His actions also can relate to some teenage boys today and how they accidentally seem to be disrespecting women by talking to them in a rude manner and judging there looks and flaws. Holden also seems to disrespect the nuns by smoking in front of there face, “When they got up to go, the two nuns, i did something very stupid and embarrassing. I was smoking a cigarette, and when i stood up to say goodbye to them, by mistake i blew some smoke in their face. I didn't mean to, but i did it.” (147) At first he was showing them respect by giving them money and talking nice to them but when he decided to smoke he showed no value to there believes and thoughts.
Overall I do not believe Holden dislikes women, I believe he does not completely know how to talk to them in a way that is respectful. Due to his inconsitionsy the readers can see that he is disrespectful in a way when it comes to elders and average women during that time period.
After analyzing all of Holden's interactions with the female characters in the novel, I believe that Holden's views toward women are influenced by whether or not he believes they are pure and innocent. Jane, Phoebe, and the nuns are all female characters that Holden described positively and that he respected. They are also all portrayed as innocent and pure. However, the other women he encounters in the novel, such as the woman on the train, Sally and the three “ugly” women at the bar, are all described as weak or ignorant. The women he describes negatively all had either sexual experience or a hopeful outlook towards life (such as the woman speaking fondly of her son on the train, or the women hoping to encounter someone famous at the bar). Holden describes these women as weak, ignorant morons, and his interactions with them display his lack of respect towards them. The correlation between a woman's innocence and the amount of respect she receives from Holden, reveal his slight misogynistic attitude toward women. Holden views females who are innocent fondly, while those who are not as weak and ignorant. His lack of respect for women who have more sexual experience is clear when comparing Holden's description of the three “ugly” girls and Sally, versus the manner in which he describes Jane. Holden emphasizes both that the girls at the bar and Sally are ignorant and that they go out on dates, dancing, and do “lousy” things with boys. Jane, however, who discloses that he has never “necked,” is said to be intelligent and pretty in her own way.
ReplyDeleteI am unsure whether or not Holden is a misogynist. At the time this novel was written, misogynistic viewpoints were predominant in American society. Holden may just be following the social dogma that he was raised in. Or he may just be a scared and confused teenager, depressed and afraid because as he grew up, he lost his innocence, therefore valuing those who continue to possess theirs. The only thing that I am certain of is that Holden is extremely critical and all the characters in the novel, male or female, are subject to his judgements.
-Lilliana Conradi
While reading the novel I saw Holden’s relationship with the females he has encountered as a fear of losing his innocence and unwillingness to grow up. This is supported by the fact that throughout the novel the women he encounters are described and sexualized in some way. As my peers have stated I also connected the fact that he is afraid to grow up and is still unsure of his own identity. This also connects to the fact of his alienation and why he distances himself from others. In the scene where Holden gets upset with Stradlater after finding out how his date had gone with Jane, Holden shows affection and how much he cares about her by how upset he is with Stradlater. In comparison the other women that Holden describes in the novel, he places Jane on a pedestal and describes her based on the little things he remembers such as how she and him would play checkers. This is significant because it shows that he truly cares about her and the thought of her with Stradlater in a car ruins the image of her purity and fears the need to grow up in order to love.
ReplyDelete-Nubia Alvarez
I do not think Holden Caulfield is a female-basher. After all, Jane and Phoebe who are one of the few he is fond of as a person, are both women. He just finds several women he meets to be as phony as the men. He is also mindful of what kind of girl he would spend time with and not someone who deep down objectify women: "I think if you don’t really like a girl, you shouldn’t horse around with her at all, and if you do like her... you ought to be careful about doing crumby stuff" (70). He does judge women by their appearance, but he decides if he genuinely likes them by the way they act. Holden did not like the idea of Jane spending the night with Stradlater since he did not think she was too smart to be fooled by his phony roommate. Holden knows well of Jane's interests, habits, and personality and uses that knowledge to conclude he likes her. Holden does not necessarily think Jane is attractive like that of Sally Hayes but he sees more worth and sincerity in Jane.
ReplyDeleteAfter carefully analyzing Holden Caulfield's thoughts on women, I have to agree with most of my peers when they say that Holden's feelings towards them are inconsistent and is stuck between respectful and disrespectful. However, I do not believe that this is intentional. Rather, Holden experiences different levels of respect towards certain females. Take Jane Gallagher for example, he respected her mainly because she was friendly and was a smart girl. similarly, he talks like this about his sister, Pheobe and says she's a smart girl who always knows what she's talking about. However, when he described Sunny, the prostitute, he said he felt depressed when he saw her eyes. I believe that Holden has mixed feelings about women because, as a young man he is barely starting to get to know the real world, and the difference between women who respect themselves and those who don't.
ReplyDeleteWith that being said, given into consideration that this novel was published during the 1960s, I do not believe that Holden was a misogynist. Rather I think that he is barely trying yo get to know women and is still quiet confused. As for the women in this novel, we are able to see different types of them. I believe that Holden is more fond of, and has more respect for the intelligent women who are bold in a good way.
Holden is extremely hypercritical of women. As a majority of my peers have iterated, Holden's behavior towards women varies depending on how he personally perceives them.
ReplyDeleteWhile I do not believe Holden is a misogynist, his behavior is definitely tainted by misogynistic ideals. He constantly describes women using derogatory terms, and generalizes all women to be dumb. However, it is evident that he respects women in a unique way.
For example, in page 50 Holden scolds Stradlater for engaging in sexual activities with women he does not truly appreciate. Holden expresses that "he could give the time to anybody he felt like. I told him he didn't even care if a girl kept all her kings in the back row or not". Furthermore, in page 103 Holden asserts that "when you're coming pretty close to doing it with a girl... she keeps telling you to stop. The trouble with me is, I stop. Most guys don't." In essence Holden would not force himself onto a woman since he sees it as morally wrong, although it was commonly accepted by society.
In response to Beverly; How can we know the women that Holden belittles don't respect themselves? It was clearly outlined in previous blog posts that the novel is written from a first-person perspective. Therefore, it is safe to assume that his views on women are biased, and not a clear reflection of the women's self-respect. The way Holden treats and perceives women is merely a reflection of himself, not the women.
-Ingrid Reyes
Throughout the novel Holden interacts on account with a few female characters, some of those that he classifies under as "phonies" or "stupid". Take for instance Sally Hayes a girl Holden dated for quite a while before he left to Pencey, when he returns to New York he decides to take Sally out on a date. Although Sally is well read Holden classifies her as being "stupid". I feel Holden makes this judgement upon her because he has mixed feelings towards her whether or not he is actually sexually attracted toward her. Also I feel he makes this judgment because he does not feel mentally connected with her. Take also for instance the prostitute Sunny that Maurice sent up to Holden's room when he stayed at the Edmont Hotel. Holden seemed to be sexual attracted toward her in the beginning, but something inside of him almost made him felt bad for her and then all of a sudden he insisted that she left. Holden even says that he doesn't understand sex and that its confusing and although he is sexually attracted to all these female characters he interacts with, the only girl that seems to be of importance to him and comes to mind is Jane Gallagher a girl whom Holden spent lots of time with over the summer when both of their families were staying in Maine. This is because she is only one of the few girls who Holden does not only find very attractive but has respect for her.
ReplyDelete-Kiyana Tejero
Throughout my reading of the novel, I truly do not think Holden is a misogynist. Although some may point out his lack of respect for some women, the disrespect is not solely targeted towards women, it is towards the idea of phoniness. Regarding the mother on the train, Holden was not lying to her out of disrespect, but out of boredom and solitude; he would have done the same to a father. Although Holden may have spoken derogatorily towards the women at the bar, this was only because they were rude and discriminatory to Holden. Finally there is Jane, who keeps her kings in the back row. Holden idolizes Jane as innocent and perfect. However, he is reluctant to call her because he is afraid that she changed; that she “fell off of the rye” and is a phony now. In the end, it is Mr. Antonelli who showed Holden that while this "phoniness" is harmful and hurtful, it doesn't make people evil or worthy of hate. It makes them human.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that Holden is a misogynist but rather respects women as normal people, though he does it in his own way. Similar to Garrett the way that Holden views these women that he interacts with may seem in a poor manner but as we already know Holden is cynical and a majority of the time he will see the people he talks to in a poor manner. So this is to say that Holden treats everyone in this manner and it is not exclusive to women so he could not be a misogynist.
ReplyDeleteAlthough Holden does not fully show his respect to the mother he can only be responsible for being cynical but not a misogynist. Holden is a pathological liar and it was made clear much earlier when Holden himself stated that “I’m the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life. It’s awful. If I’m on my way to the store to buy a magazine, even, and somebody asks me where I’m going, I’m liable to say I’m going to the opera.” (pg 16) so the mother is not the only one who has had Holden lie to them especially in something as small as where he is going to.
For Holden Jane is a person that was in his life when he was younger and still a child meaning that as he grew up he is trying to cling to the past through Jane. So when he hears about Stradlater and Jane he noticeably is perturbed by this mainly due to the fact that his childhood or innocence is being shattered by what could have happened between them. Rather than accept what could have happened he clings to the past remembering Jane as an innocent person and himself the same way.
-Cristian Hernandez
Holden's encounters with women help further point out to the reader his inconsistent pattern of thinking. One moment, he is adoring Jane, putting her on a pedestal. Describing her as one of a kind, and showing he was almost mesmerized by her. Clearly, she meant a lot to him. However, with his encounter with Sunny, he only views her as depressing. Although she removes her clothing directly in from of him, he shows nothing but sympathy towards her and her life style. He clearly shows that his attitudes differ, deepening on the girl. In one scene, he is witnessed being rather critical to the women surrounding him, and the next he is demonstrating his love for Jane. This then begs the question: Why is Jane different from the others? It leads me to believe that Jane may have played a major role in Holden's life, emotionally. He shows nothing but love towards Jane, but shows clear discontent towards the blonde women he meets in the lavender room. He portrays them as "dumb" and "ugly", however with Jane, he describes her as bringing nothing but happiness when he was around her. Overall, I believe women play a vital role in Holden's life. More importantly, I feel as if Jane may be the reason for his harsh attitude towards women whom he encounters throughout his endeavors.
ReplyDelete-Noah Chavez
I feel as though Holden's thinking difference can easliy be recognized by the way he interacts with girls. For, instance he would speak respectfully to a mother on the train ride and at another time he would comletely take his anger out on a female. Onthe other hand, Holden has strong feelings for Jane and he percieves her as this really nice and pretty girl. He may treat her this way for the fact that she has been there for him in the past and he may feel as though he needs to make it up to her. With other women though, Holden could be extremely rude to them or he could be respectful to them and I believe it all depends on the type of mood that he is in. So I can now say that I believe that Holden doesn't hate all women, but he does dislike those that are not Jane.
ReplyDeleteI think he criticized all women (except for his sister) because deep inside all he wanted and the only girl he cared about was Jane. However, I do not think he disrespected all of them because of how nice he talked about the nuns and he even mentioned he was looking for them later on in the story. I think that he only criticized the ones who he wanted to sleep with because they were not Jane, who was the only girl he cared about.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with my peers in that Holden only seems to be a misogynist because of his immaturity and innocence towards women. I do not believe Holden is a misogynist, but he does a terrible job of describing women, everyone is titled to their opinion, but Holden's can be extremely rude. Now although he is rude towards women I have noticed that he only judges women that he cannot hold an intellectual conversation with and still have that sense of innocence that he so desperately craves to not stray from. I also agree with Trinity that he had multiple times that he could have had sex and all throughout the book he talks about the many time he could have lost his virginity but didn't because although he may now outright show it, he makes it pretty evident that he believes it should be done with the right person at the right time. Which now I can see why he really got upset with Stradlater and how he wondered if he had "given Jane the time in Ed Bankie's Car" I find it interesting that he is so inbetween acting like a child and an adult. If Holden really disliked women would he treat Jane and his kid sister Phoebe so nicely?
ReplyDelete-Yvette Macias
ReplyDeleteIt is apparent that Holden is not a misogynist but instead simply a critical individual on those who do not share the same perspective as him. I observed that Holden usually criticizes those that either have lost their innocence or conformed to the adulthood ways. Although in the beginning of the novel, it was not apparent that he kept on calling his peers “phonies” in chapter 22 he defines what a phony is. In this chapter he is asked what he aspires to be by his sister and he responds how in adulthood people become phony because they are selfish. I then understood why he called his friends phonies, because he was often used by them, like for example when Stradlater only communicates with him so he could write him an essay. However, his motive for disliking someone can also be seen used with women in chapter 17. In this chapter he asks Sally to marry him but when she responds with the reality that they are too young to marry, he calls her “a royal pain in the ass”, which implied he impulsively stopped finding her appealing. I strongly believe this was triggered by her acknowledging the truth of adulthood and not trying to escape it, like Holden, but instead choosing to conform to it. Another case that proves that Holden is not a misogynist is when he defends a woman he doesn’t even know for men talking bad about her although she gave them her innocence, which in this case is sex. He is critical towards the guys because they have taken advantage of someone’s innocence due to simply being an “adult”. I believe that it is apparent that Holden is critical of only people who are changed by adulthood because he believes they become selfish and take advantage of others innocence in the process.
-Jazzlyn Aviles
I believe Holden’s emotions towards multiple topics are extremely unbalanced. Being only sixteen interferes with his true perspective towards women. He views the women he has come across as either phony, boring, or just plain ugly while viewing others as warmhearted, kind and worth his time. As a child his parents never really paid much attention to him and his mother has not yet overcome Allies death. When he is given the news that he has been kicked out of Pencey the first person he thinks of is his mother, attentive as to how much additional pain this will cause her. Starting with Mrs. Morrow (the lady from the train), although her son is the complete opposite of what he claims him to be Holden feels satisfaction towards making his mother happy of the son she is told he is. On the other hand, Jane--the only girl he seems to truly love-- is part of a past relationship that took part after Holden’s brothers death. Holden feels a strong connection with her because they are able to share a common childhood. She also provided him an escape path from the pain of loosing his brother at such a young age. Holden seems to be most attracted to the women who are caring and listen to him and enjoy his attention like the nuns and his sister phoebe. However, Sunny, Sally and the three women from the Lavender room do not appeal to Holden’s affectionate side. He comes to understand that they are only women of interest and treats them as such by only using them as a distraction. In reality he seeks for the comfort that his mother never gave him from other women. He tries to find it through sexual attraction at first-- confused as to how to receive it--but ends up just seeking someone to hear him. Holden does not have anything against women he simply dislikes those who are ignorant and selfish.
ReplyDelete-Gisselle Gonzalez
In the first few chapters of the book I actually thought Holden was quite respectful towards women. For instance, in the scene where Stardlater goes on a date with Jane. Holden seemed very bothered by the fact Jane when on a date with his roommate, a protective side of him is also showed when he tried to hit Stardlater after he refused to tell him what he did with Jane on the date. Up to that point in the novel I thought Holden was not only respectful but also caring towards women. Then when he was in Seattle we see Holden rudely describe the three women, this though does not make him a misogynist. It has been proven throughout the story that he talks about men like this too, Holden was a problem connecting with people which is why I didn't find it surprising when he talked about the women in Seattle in a derogatory manner. Now why does he talk positively about Jane ? Simply because she is his childhood crush, ever since she was his neighbor I believe he's had a connection with her, which is something he does not have with the majority of the people that surround him.
ReplyDelete-Roberto Sevilla
I agree with Roberto in his statement that Holden treats or speaks of men and women alike. Holden believes that society doesn’t understand him and that is why he calls almost all of them “phonies.” He is not only rude to women but rather to everyone that he believes are not acting the way that he feels appropriate or those people that are not respectful to him. There are some examples of Holden actually being respectful towards women. One is when he states that he stops his sexual when they tell him contrary to most of the men he knows of. Also, Holden carried a conversation with two nuns and donated money to their cause. After when they leave, he wants to continue their conversation and even feels guilty that he didn’t donate more. In my opinion, this is evidence that he doesn’t hate or look down on women if he wants to have intellectual conversations with two women that are older than him and are very religious. Roberto also brought up the point that Jane Gallagher was a childhood friend. The people that he actually likes are children or people that he has known since he was a child such as his brother Allie and sister Phoebe. Holden may only like these people because he views them as innocent from the corruption that he’s experienced.
Delete-Michael Kipling
I do not view Holden as an “old fashioned male chauvinist pig.” Instead I agree with many of my peers that Holden view towards women is based on his age and innocence. Even though he had some negative comments towards them, he is a misunderstood teenager; each gender has their own opinions about the others. You can tell he doesn't hate women whenever he talked about his sister, his mother, Jane Gallagher and even Sally Hayes since he spoke positively about them. With Sally Hayes Holden went as far as to even ask her to run away with him and that he loved her. Part of me believes that Holden said that because he just simply didn’t want to be alone since I do not believe that he truly had such strong feelings towards Sally. The way Holden is feeling also ties back to Jane Gallagher. Maybe if he saw her again and had a second chance, he would have fallen in love and understand the meaning of the word. Maybe he wouldn't be so isolated or sad. Thats another reason as to why whenever she touched him he got really happy, or while when she was out with Stradlater it was worrisome for him. Jane was someone who Holden had genuine feelings towards and I feel as if he was forcing himself to feel the same way towards Sally by asking her to run away with him.
ReplyDelete-Alyssa Ariza
I agree with most of my peers that the way Holden acts towards women is extremely inconsistent, but he is not misogynistic. People will act differently around others according to their relationship. Jane is put on a pedestal because of their past and Holden obviously adores her more than any other woman mentioned in the book. Although he does not mention comparing other women to Jane, it is evident that no one can replace her. He thought about calling Jane, but ended up setting up a date with Sally. Holden was clearly not enjoying anything about the date other than how Sally looked, and by the end of it he even said that she gives him a “royal pain in the ass” (pg. 148). Whereas, whenever he spoke about Jane, it was a whole different story. He mentioned, “You never even worried, with Jane, whether your hand was really sweaty or not. All you knew was, you were happy” (pg. 89). If you compare Sally to Jane, she does not offer much that interests Holden other than her physical appearance. Jane, however, was not “strictly beautiful” (pg. 86), but was able to mesmerize Holden. This sentimental attachment to Jane prevents him from successfully pursuing other women. As Noah puts it, Jane could be the reason for his attitude towards other women because they can not fill the void.
ReplyDeleteAs undoubtedly many here have already said, I don't think that Holden is misogynistic or holds a prejudice at all. What stems this seemingly unnatural or irrational behavior around women is Holden's simple lack of experience with women. Holden of course attempts to persuade the audience that he has some experience with women, like "necking" with Jane Gallagher and such, but in reality he's lost when it comes to women. Holden brings some insight on his inexperience when claiming that "The trouble with me is, I stop. Most guys don't. I can't help it. You never know whether they really want you to stop, or whether they're just scared as hell..." (Salinger 120). The most obvious example of his inexperience was his encounter with Sunny in chapter 13, deciding last minute to not "engage" with her, not out of her appearance, but because not only was he scared but also felt sorry for Sunny.
ReplyDeleteIn a way, Holden almost treats women as he does a man. Holden's not afraid to note the bad characteristics of a woman as of a man. Just as Holden is quick to make a judgement of Ackley and his gross lifestyle or ineptitude to take care of himself (Salinger 26), Holden seems to take the same steps and measures in judging the three women at the Lavender Room, making quick work to identify them as unintelligent and, except for the blonde girl, ugly. From this, Holden doesn't seem to put gender as a factor in his name callings of women. He seemingly does this sort of thing to anyone and everyone he meets. It's all just a testament to his character.
Based on society’s perspective on women in the early 1950’s, we can conclude that teens only looked at women as just sex companions instead of an equal gender. There was still a sense of male dominance and that women possessed low qualities. Holden shows this perspective on some women when he explains, “most girls are so dumb and all. After you neck them for a while, you can really watch them losing their brains. You take a girl when she really gets passionate, she just hasn’t any brains” (page 121). Holden really does have a poor point of view on the women that seem to have no common sense/ appeal to him.
ReplyDeleteHowever, on the contrary, Holden does have some respect for women. Readers see that there are only a few girls that he actually enjoys. For one, he first introduces Jane Gallagher when discussing her to Stradlater. It is pretty obvious that he’s crazy about her and use to enjoy her company. All throughout chapter four, Holden describes everything he remembers about Jane with great detail and is extremely excited. In addition, the only girl he has ever complimented was his younger sister, Phoebe. He’s quite fond of her and can’t wait to find her at the park and talk to her.
When analyzing the type of women Holden likes, he seems to only respect the innocent ones. I believe he does this because it has to do with his immaturity. Holden states that he “had quite a few opportunities to lose my virginity and all, but I’ve never got around to it yet” (page 120). Holden’s somewhat respect for women is most notable when he thinks, “I think if you don’t really like a girl, you shouldn’t horse around with her at all, and if you do like her, then you’re supposed to like her face, and if you like her face, you ought to be careful about doing crumby stuff to it” (page 81). But, then on the following page, he switches and says he “spent the whole night necking with a terrible phony” and that “sex is something I just don’t understand”.
Overall, Holden is not a misogynist and does not hate women. However, he does share some of society’s typical perspectives on women.
-Jocelynn Padilla
I don’t think Holden hates women more than he hates anyone else in the story. Like my peers stated before, he is inexperienced with women, proven by the fact that he’s failed multiple times in losing his virginity. When he lied to the mother of his fellow Pencey student on the train, it wasn’t because she was a woman, Holden simply didn’t want to delve in on his life story. In fact, he liked the boy’s mother a lot, as evidenced by him thinking, “The thing is, though, I liked old Morrow’s mother. She was all right,”. On a separate note, Caulfield thinks very highly of Jane, since he spent a lot of time with her over summer. She was an important person in his life, interacting with him in a way few people did. Overall, Holden is not an old fashioned male pig, rather, his conflict with adulthood is the primary reason for his actions against women.
ReplyDelete-Ahren Aguinaldo
I agree with what you said about Holden hating everyone equally to an extent. Holden's inexperience does not stop when it comes to just dealing with women, I would take it a step further and say that Holden simply does not like social interaction. In a previous blog entry by Mr. Rodriguez, we discussed the theme of alienation. As Holden never really felt that he is unable to truly connect with anyone, he never really had the need to brush up on his people's skills. Holden does actually have people he finds important to him. They are Jane Gallagher, his sister Phoebe,and his deceased brother Allie. The people he finds dear are the ones that he puts on a pedestal, he really loves them to death. Seeing them as the few people that he can completely open up to.
DeleteI agree with my peers that Holden isn't misogynistic and hates women. I think that Holden actually treats them like how he treats everyone else he interacts with. Holden separates himself with everyone and judges them, distancing himself even further. Although the description of the women he meet are different, he treats them all the same. Holden often judges them by their appearances, and eventually figures out their personality. For example, at Ernie's, Holden described 2 of the 3 girls as ugly, and dumb-looking. Then he comes to find that one of them is really witty, and that the other quite talkative. He doesn't disrespect women entirely, as seen when when he constantly mentions Jane Gallagher. I noticed that Holden often leans towards women with great personality. A great example is Jane Gallagher. He describes her as not being the prettiest, but he often "kidded" with her as he got to know her. Whereas, when he was trying to make a conversation with the blonde lady at Ernie's, he often got annoyed by the fact that she was constantly being distracted. Overall, Holden prioritizes personality over looks.
ReplyDelete-Jered Relopez
Considering the time period, I believe that Holden is not a misogynist. As most of my peers above has stated Holden treats women basically the same way as he treats other people in his life. Even though Holden may treat people very differently than his peers, he treats most of the people the same way with little discrimination. I feel as if Holden is just a little selective towards who he converses with, but then he considers the other party the same as any other person just like his friends, or otherwise, acquaintances. This selective view on his conversations change with people such as Jane Gallagher. Holden treats Jane much different because he find himself very close to her. This was due to how Jane acts with Holden, and the physical interactions also contribute to this bias towards Jane. On the other hand, Holden really has nothing good to say towards her family, so this has gotten me confused as to how he perceives girls compared to that girl's family. After all this, I believe that Holden is not misogynist but rather a very indifferent person towards other peoples genders, except for a select few such as Jane.
ReplyDelete-Rejiryc Perez
When Holden lies to the mother of one his fellow classmates at Pencey on the train, I don’t feel it is a form of disrespect to females. Holden habitually lies to men and women. He admits early in the story that how much he lies and that sometimes he goes too far. Holden does call those girls he dances with in the club ugly, witches, morons and other non-favorable adjectives. These words are not very kind but in today’s society they are commonly used by both genders so it would be unfair to consider him a male chauvinist pig based on those words. He also uses those non-favorable adjectives when talking about men in the story, so it would also be unfair to author or Holden chauvinist. Holden is a teenager during the time before the pre-feminist movement so his misogynist views are not really intentional, he was born at a time where this thoughts were accepted and considered the “norm” by the majority of the public. His views on women ironic considering the cynicism he feels about his society.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think Holden hates females based on the way he discusses his feelings about Jane Gallagher. It seems like he has a feelings for Jane Gallagher because of the way he speaks so highly of her. Other girls don’t make him feel the same type of way as Jane does. Every other girl Holden talks about in the story he makes it a point to mention sex or thoughts about sex in his mind. He paints Jane as a pure female. A goddess, making a point that he has never had sexual relations with her, which is why he asks so many questions when he finds out Stradlater goes out on a date with Jane. He can’t deal with the idea of a guy like Stradlater giving Jane “the time,” because he believes two people having sex should love each other and actually know each other. This would also ruin the innocent picture that he has painted in his mind of Jane Gallagher and how she would act.
- Joseph Doumbia
I believe that Holden, much like my peers have already stated, is not a misogynist. However, he does tend to generalize the women in the novel based on their appearances. For instance, in chapter 9 when he meets the 3 women at the bar, in addition to their name, he calls them either "the ugly one" or "the blond one" (Salinger 95). Although it may seem that he thinks lowly of women, we should not ignore that Holden is merely an immature teenage boy. This could greatly influence his perspective on women. Despite this, he does not objectify women, which is evident when he states "I think if you don't really like a girl, you shouldn't horse around with her at all, and if you do like her, then you're supposed to like her face, and if you like her face, you ought to be careful about doing crumby stuff to it, like squirting water all over it" (Salinger 81). This suggests that Holden believes women should be loved instead of used, and views them as actual people rather than sex objects.
ReplyDeleteTwo woman who I think Holden holds much love and respect for is his sister Phoebe and Jane. With Jane, he states how he "got to know her more intimately" yet he also claims "you don't always have to get too sexy to get to know a girl" (Salinger 99). This explains that Holden respected Jane and actually got to know her as a person throughout his summer. Him constantly reminiscing about her just further explains her impact on him. He did not view her as some object, but instead as a person whom he may have some lingering feelings for. As for his sister, he repeatedly claims "you'd like her" and compliments her multiple times for being smart. Thus, he holds much respect for the both of them and feels attached to them.
-Meagan Phillips
So far I've agreed to all the statements my peers have made about Holden not being a misogynist. I believe that Holden doesn't intend to be rude to women but throughout the book he did meet the three women in the nightclub that I though they were rude for ignoring Holden when he talked to them and when after offering to pay for their drinks didn't even say a simple thank you. But it was also a bit childish from his side by saying thay they were "ugly" and "dumb-looking" but then again he is just sixteen years old. On the other hand when he talks about Phoebe and Jane, he talks about them in a positive manner and his attitude changes. I don't know about you guys but I believe Holden is developing a what some call it a "crush" for Jane but just doesn't want to admit it. What do you guys think? - Lithzy Alvarado
ReplyDeleteHolden is not a misogynist. He is simply just an overall bitter person. He has equal hatred towards both men and women the same way he does towards both the upper class and lower class citizens. Although he made rude comments about the girls at the nightclub, they were comments that came from his mind. He did not share his comments out loud. Many people have negative thoughts about others tend to judge people in their head. Women can think the same thing about men. He was nice and loved the nuns that he met in New York and he worships Jane Gallagher, because he has special feelings of love for her. Holden only sexualizes women, because that is what many teenage minds do. They think of women sexually but unintentionally. His mind is still immature and he does not intend to be a misogynist.
ReplyDelete-Risvi Tareq
Throughout the novel Holden is evidently not fond of most of the women he encounters with for example the three girls at the bar in his hotel, or the mother of a friend at Pencey that he lies too constantly throughout most of their conversation. But with this in mind, Holden is evident to not be very fond of any male beings taking D.B., his brother, as an example when he calls him phony for being a big shot screenwriter in Hollywood and prostitutes himself.
ReplyDeleteSo with stating that I believe that Holden is not a misogynist. Being a misogynist means to discriminate, belittle, and being violent towards women which Holden has not participated in any of the three throughout the story. Although Holden's actions and words towards people tend to be different than the actions of a normal person who doesn't absolutely hate nearly everything, he still manages to pass off as any other human being.
With a small amount of real-life experience with women, Holden is quite inexperienced enough to begin to take part in those kinds of actions towards women. He is simply and immature young man still in his teen years who is not aware of the way to act towards women. Perhaps his physical being always being put in all-boy boarding schools influenced his actions towards women later on in the novel. Holden talks about Jane Gallagher as a blue-blooded and saint-like manner taking the idea that Holden is a misogynist out of the question.
I agree with most of my peers that state that Holden is not a misogynist. He shows both an equal amount of hatred towards both genders. I agree with Risvi as to when he states that all these comments are simply just thoughts in his head. Just like many modern teens, we always have some kind of judgment to many people although we never really want to say so out loud. Also this could be his side of him that is still stuck on immaturity. In elementary school, as I can recall, guys simply just made fun of girls because the liked them. Yes, he doesn’t really have any feelings towards the girls he encounters, but he does have a lot t say about them. Also, he doesn’t always have negative comments towards girls. In addition, Holden is constantly talking about Jane as if he is in “love” with her. He obviously does like her; he just doesn’t want to admit although all the signs are there. He doesn’t want to admit his feelings because he finds love to be phony thing. He seems as if he isn’t quite ready to admit to such things, so he constantly just talks negatively to ensure that he doesn’t have t deal with it.
ReplyDelete-Angel Villareal
I feel that it's not that Holden isn't found of women, it's just how his personality is as a person. He is disrespectful towards not only women, but men as well, basically almost everyone he's crossed paths with in this movie besides his sister Phoebe. I agree with Risvi in saying that he is a bitter person as well as people tend to judge others in their head and not say it out loud. Also, evidence to counter that he hates women is when Holden met the 2 Nuns who he thought were very nice, and felt bad when he couldn't donate money for their building fund i believe. I also agree with Jered when Holden judges personality over looks, describing the 2 girls as witty, ugly and got annoyed by them quick, while he was able to joke around with Jane, and the mom of the Pencey student. Holden doesn't choose to hate women. He talks to them first, but once they make a bad move, that's when things start to get ugly for them.
ReplyDelete- Ryan Dasmarinas
Although Holden has said many judgmental comments about women, I do not believe he is misogynistic. He has made critical comments about everybody in this novel, both male and female, and this goes to show that he is a bitter individual. I agree with Micah Rodriquez that Holden believes women should be loved and respected. When he interacts with a prostitute named Sunny, he made the decision that he wants to talk instead of having sex, implying that he wants to respect her and her body. I also agree with Mariana Velasco that Holden has the upmost respect for his little sister, Phoebe, and Jane Gallagher (a character that we did not have the opportunity to meet). When Holden speaks of his little sister he shows that he cares deeply for her. He is willing to put himself at risk so he can interact with her. Then, there is Jane Gallagher, who seems to have a special place in Holden’s heart. Throughout the book, he expresses how he misses Jane and how he has great memories with her. He even picks a fight with his roommate, Stradlater, because he would not give him information about what they did on their date that night. Unfortunately, the readers were not introduced to Jane, so we were unable to form an opinion about her and whether Holden’s view of her was credible. In conclusion, I do not believe Holden is misogynistic, he just has a hard time creating a positive judgement when he meets women.
ReplyDelete-Ayauna Cunningham
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading my peers' comments, I agree that Holden is not a misogynist. I believe that he does not treat women differently than men, which might be where the confusion stems from. I also think that if he were a misogynist, that in chapter 13 when he hires a prostitute, I think that he would have treated her differently. Before we read about this encounter, he first explains that he is a virgin, yet he has had numerous occasions where he was close into partaking. He then states, "I mean most girls are so dumb and all. After you neck them for a while, you can really watch them losing their brains. You take a girl when she really gets passionate, she just hasn't any brains." However, just afterwards he reveals that the girls tell him to stop, so he stops, but he wishes he hadn't. Although, he "keeps doing it anyway." To me, this definitely demonstrates that he is not misogynistic, however, I think that he, like most stereotyped adolescent teens, are confused and lost. Going back to the point that I made about Holden treating women the same as men, what I mean by that is he does not portray one as more "phony" than the other. Throughout, he recognizes both males and females as being phony, which is a constant word he uses as a label. One example of this is when Holden takes Sally on a date and she goes to talk to a guy, of which he assumes the only reason is because of his social status. This guy is dressed to what Holden explains as what an "Ivy League" person would wear. He observes their conversation and is nauseated by it. Holden arrives to the assumption that although the guy acknowledges her as if "they hadn't seen each other in twenty years" or that "they'd taken baths in the same bathtub or something when they were little kids." A different approach on this topic is his relationship with Phoebe. Holden loves his sister and does not associate her with the rest of society, which he calls "phony." Besides this, Holden does not objectify women as would a misogynist. For example, in chapter 9, he admits, "I think if you don't really like a girl, you shouldn't horse around with her at all, and if you do like her, then you're supposed to like her face, and if you like her face, you ought to be careful about doing crumby stuff to it, like squirting water all over it. It's really too bad that so much crumby stuff is a lot of fun sometimes." I think that his declination of objectifying women is demonstrated here. This is because he seems to believe that it is wrong to lead a girl on when one does not like them. Also, that if one does like a girl, then they must respect her. Although his actions and words might have hinted at some prejudice, in my opinion, Holden does not have prejudices towards women nor is he misogynistic. In all, I think, going back to his virginity, his hesitation, nervousness, and compliance towards women demonstrates his avoidance of possibly objectifying women.
ReplyDelete-Reese McElmoyl
Although there are times Holden speaks poorly about women, I do not think it makes him a misogynist. First of all, he speaks poorly of all things, he diminishes them with his own thoughts and words,so women should not be a surprise. However, because of the respective time period, a time where women were viewed quite lowly, it is acceptable for someone who might think he is specifically targeting women when being rude. However there are many instances where Holden actually defends women; let's not forget the reason he got in a fight with Stradlater, a scene which was difficult for me to read and endure, was over Jane and because Holden believed he did not treat her right. One of the quotes in my dialectical journal is as follows: "That isn't nice. If she was decent enough to let you get sexy with her all the time, you at least shouldn't talk about her that way." In this scene, Carl Luce spoke badly of a woman calling her a whore, evidently just using her to his pleasure. Holden was quick to react and defend the female name and respond maturely with the right words. It seems the norm has always been for mean to take advantage of women for a night of pleasure, as evidence also by Stradlater's move of taking them to the back seat of the car which Holden resonated, so the fact that Holden has the audacity to stand up for something that is so common even nowadays is very powerful, although it seemed trivial in the moment, which supports my notion of him not being a misogynist.
ReplyDeleteI forgot to mention about Jane, although we never legitemately got direct contact with her, she plays a vital roll throughout the story. I believe the reason Holden got so protective over her and never spoke bad upon her was because she was probably his first crush in a way, so he felt like an obligation, or a strong attraction to her that could not be forgotten no matter how far away his childhood and those memories were.
DeleteI don’t think Holden is a misogynist, but he just lacks interest in women. It’s weird because you would think teenage boys would be so interested in women, but Holden is not just any ordinary teen. Holden looks down on women, however that’s how he’s is towards everyone. Holden is pessimistic and will try to be negative about anything when he has the chance to. When Holden meets and lies to Ernest Morrow’s mom, he lied to her because he “didn’t feel like telling her [his] whole life story” (61). That just shows that he thinks of women like any other people, he’s still very judgmental. Although, Holden even talks positively about Mrs. Morrow, he talked about her nice smile, her nice telephone voice, good charm, and a lot of sex appeal (62-63). He didn’t show her respect just because she’s a woman, that’s just Holden’s personality. He doesn’t show many people respect. When Holden talks bad about the three women in the nightclub, I feel that he was just being himself still. You have to keep in mind that Holden is very critical. Also, if i were to see those three women, I’d probably think the same but it doesn’t mean that I’m misogynist. I’m simply just superficially judging them.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I find it so frustrating that Holden didn’t contact Jane Gallagher just because he “didn’t feel like it.” You can tell Holden is just making excuses for himself to not talk to Jane. Therefore, I completely agree with Mackenzie’s claim that Holden’s dislike of women is an act of his unwillingness to grow up. Holden admits that sex is something he just doesn't understand (71), which is something you do as you transition to adulthood. Holden not contacting Jane is him refusing to grow up and stay in his innocence.
-Paola Priela
After reading the whole book, I believe Holden doesn't understand women, therefore he has various different perceptions of them, mostly negative. The women he has met in life includes his mother, Phoebe, Jane Gallagher, Sally Hayes, Sunny, the women three women from the club,etc. He sees these women in various different lights. He sees his sister Phoebe as one whom he almost sees as perfect, and Jane Gallagher a girl whom he both likes and respects. Then there's the other women, his mother who he sees as weak-willed after the death of Allie; Sally Hayes, although she seems to be from the upper class, he finds her stupid despite seeing the world in a more realistic view than Holden does. Finally there's the women he meets on the streets and clubs. The women he sees there are the ones who're "ugly," "morons," and "dopey."
ReplyDeleteThe way he treats these women are very different. For those he cares about he seems to hold them in a very high regard. He pushes the faults Jane has onto Stradlater, instead of seeing her for who she is, all is remembers is the girl he liked, and therefore antagonizes others.
At some point, Holden only sees them as being pretty, such as the times he sees Sally. However he also seems to be respectful and considerate enough of their feelings compared to other male characters in the book. This is seen when Holden mentions he's stopped his intentions with a girl when they told him to stop. This displays that Holden's contradicting behavior towards women. In the end I believe he sees women in a conflicting light, however much of that has to do with his age and the environment he has grown up in.
As what most of what my peers have mentioned already, Holden isn't really misogynistic towards women as insults men as much as he does women in the novel. The way he describe the physical appearance of the two of the women from Seattle is very reminiscent to when he was insulting the appearance of Ackely earlier on in the novel. Showing that Holden doesn't actually view women any less then he does with men. Just like how theres very few men in Holden's life that he respects, such as Allie, theres a select few of women that holden views with respect as well. Just like with Allie, Holden holds his little sister, Phoebe, with high regards. Through out the novel Holden is always praising to be one of the smartest people in his life, with Holden stating if he was to ever have a funeral, he wouldn't want Phoebe to go, stating 'That was the only goof part.'
ReplyDeleteHolden does also seem to care for girl's feelings as well, tho was made apparent near the end of his date with Sally. After saying 'You give me a royal pain in the ass...', Holden comes to immediately realize how big of a mistake he made by saying out loud and hurting Sally's feelings. I found it especially ironic since Holden continuously kept looking down on her for any type of action she has did and for him to be continuously apologizing to her after finally being vocal to her, show that Holden does seem to care for Sally.
-Daniel R. Diaz
In contrast to the opinions of Holden's distaste on women, I believe that Holden simply finds interest in females that he can hold intelligent conversations with, or ones he truly cares for. All throughout the novel, Holden proves to positively describe females he can relate to, or who would understand him based upon their conversations and interactions. For instance, the three girls he encountered in the Lavender Room fit the complete opposite of the type of person he would be able to enjoy company with, whether female or male. With their gullibility and disinterest in the things he had to say, these women fit set for the type of person that Holden would completely avoid, or become irritated with. Jane Gallagher, however, presents a perfect contrast to these three girls. Adding on to their history, Holden most likely shows a continuous interest in this girl as she relates to his childhood and past, something Holden holds very dear to him. Along with this aspect, he also describes a situation in which Jane had showed him vulnerability- initiating intimacy, and at the same time adding on to his care for her as Holden holds another personality trait/role of saving others.
ReplyDeleteAs opposed to his search for intellectual company and endearment, Holden does show some disrespect towards females like the mother he met in the train, or the words he used to describe the girls in the Lavender Room. Thus, this form of disrespect gives off the idea that he does not appreciate females or even sees them as subordinate. Although at times he shows this lack of respect, I feel that he does not completely feel superior towards females. Instead, he carefully chooses who he wants to display his generosity to, and who he wants to "kid around with."
I agree with my peers that Holden does disrespect women at times, however he mainly does it all in his mind. He is never straight out rude to any of the women that he encounters. I think that Holden is a lot like many teenagers today. For example, when we first meet someone we judge him or her right away. We instantly look at what they are wearing and how they look specifically. We may have good opinions or bad opinions about people. It is our nature to instantly judge other people and I think that that is what Holden does. I don’t think he does it to be rude, I just think he’s doing it to show us how he feels about others.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the novel Holden mentions Jane a lot and to me, it is evident that she is someone very special in his life; someone that he has always had a good time with. I believe that he is secretly still in love with Jane. I also believe that the fact that Salinger wrote a lot about her symbolizes that she will reappear in Holden’s life later on. Maybe they will even fall in love.
Although Holden does appear crude towards women to his audience, he always tends to treat them with respect. For example, he was in a bedroom with a prostitute and instead of having sex he simply asked her just to talk. Also, even though he did lie to the mom on the train that had a son at Pencey, he did it in a way that made her feel good about herself and her son. Overall, I think that Holden is fond of women and treats them pretty decently.
-Caroline Beel
Due to Holden's odd attitude and constantly known to judge, it is understandable that we can misinterpret his way of acting as "hating women". Although he certainly does not put them on a pedestal, however he does end up treating them with some sort of respect and kindness. It is easy to say Holden does not respect women, in chapter 10 when he describes the three ugly girls with ruthless comments on how dumb and ugly he ends up dancing with them and paying for their check. In chapter 13 when the prostitute enters his room he wanted to talk to her and start a conversation with her to respect her. In chapter 15 he gives willingly ten dollars to two nuns who weren't collecting for charity at the time and still offered to pay for their check. And in chapter 17 when he makes sally cry for name calling on their date, he still decides to call her later and in my eyes attempt to make it right. Yes his repect constanly is fluctuating, but it is not only for women. We see that in chapter 24 he states to one of his old teachers Mr. Antolini, how he use to hate Ackley and Stradalater but how he dosnt anymore. After seeing this we can understand that Holden just has very high standards and shos the most respect towards he people he adires the most, Such as Phoebe, and jane. This is why I believe Holden does not hate women nor does he hate anyone.
ReplyDelete-Dennis O'Brien (DJ)
Out of all the women/girls in the novel, the only two Holden seems to think a great deal of are Jane and his sister Phoebe. Based on how Holden describes Jane, she appears to be strategic. She is tough, but still sensitive. There still seems to be an innocence about her, which attracts Holden. However Holden tries to reach out to her, yet she is not there.
ReplyDeletePhoebe is Holden's sister, which he holds a very intense respect and love for. She is a grounding force in his life. She is also someone who has not lost her innocence. Phoebe cares dearly for Holden, something he does not had the chance to experience with anyone else. She offers him a real connection that cause him to be attached to her and he separates her from everything and everyone else.
With other women Hodlen is generally not kind to them. He holds this belief that they are not smart and they do not hold any character in themselves.
-Carola Cabral
Holden may seem like a misogynist, but I do not think that he is. He does not particularly hate women. In fact throughout the book, I felt that like any other teenage boy, he was attracted to them. I believe that he treats everyone the same regardless of gender. He looks down on women, however it is only his negative personality that reflects how he treats people. He is critical towards most of the people that he meets. Also, like many of my peers have previously stated, Holden does not disrespect women in person, instead he spells out his thoughts to the readers. He treats women respectfully as evidenced by the several encounters that he has in the novel. For example, he treated Sally Hayes with a lot of respect during their date. I would like to add that Holden never spoke ill of either Jane Gallagher or his younger sister Phoebe. In fact, he shows great interest in Jane and I believe that she is someone that he cares for a lot. He mentions her quite frequently during the book and explains how they had great times together playing sports and checkers. It is also very clear that Holden really loves his younger sister Phoebe. He also speaks of her a lot during the story and it is evident that he cared a lot because he always talked about how intelligent and pretty she was. I think Holden treats everyone with the same cynical attitude despite their gender.
ReplyDelete-Sarah Solis
When I looked at Holden's interactions with people, I never really noticed a gender difference. The way that he was treating the women in the Lavender room, seemed to me to be no different than how he viewed other character like Ackley and Stradlater (given he did laud Stradlater for some things). He constantly referred to both the three girls and Stradlater as morons multiple times. Even though Holden seemed to have had an ounce of more respect for Stradlater, I think that he views a lot of people as below him.
ReplyDeleteAnother reason for why I dont really see him having a truly negative view of women is because of the way he describes Jean and Phoebe. He goes on to describe Jean in a really soft, gentle, and practically romantic manner most likely due to his interest in her character and the overall girl she is. He also constantly compliments his sister as intelligent and the type of girl who always knew exactly what you were talking about. These reasons are why I believe he doesn't hold an entirely negative view of women.
-Eric Solorio
Looking back at the scene with the student's mother, it seems as thought what really "killed" Holden was when she referred to her son as being sensitive when in Holden's eyes, he was "doubtless the biggest bastard that ever went to Pencey. Holden realized that although she was sweet and kind, she was also genuine and ignorant. I believe Holden lied to her throughout their conversation because of how earnest and oblivious she was. Upon meeting such a person so willing to listen, I believe Holden exchanged her attention for what she wanted to hear. As such, his actions have nothing to do with the other's gender.
ReplyDeleteThe difference between how he perceives Jane compared to many of the other females in the novel is that with Jane, Holden goes more into detail with her little quirks, habits, personality, and memories. With the other girls, the first thing he seems to notice is their physical appearance and whether or not they appeal to him. Jane is special in this sense, in that she is the only female- other than Phoebe- where Holden notices something beyond an exterior. This shows just how much Jane means to him.
With this, it is my belief that although Holden seems to take more interest in the physical appearance of females than he does males, he does not respect them any less than he does males. Other than being more aware of a girl's appearance, Holden seems to regard females just as highly- or lowly- as he does males.
-Kiara Mendaros
I feel like Holden expresses two versions of himself when it comes to women, he respects women about the same way he respects men however at times he does put them on a pedestal in which brings out a common idea during that era, that women were mainly made for men. Holden puts Jane and Sally on a pedestal; with Jane he describes her in an honest and respectful way. It’s obvious that he is quite fond of her; however, he hasn’t seen Jane since summer, so his idea of Jane could, at this point, be unrealistic because she would have changed in some way by then. When he mentions her, Jane isn’t there to contradict his description of her so that’s why he doesn’t have any ill spoken opinions of her. Unlike Jane, Sally is there to contradict Holden’s image of her. He puts Sally on a pedestal throughout the date which later gets shattered once Sally logically says no to marrying him. He was quick to disrespect Sally once she didn’t agree with him, which during that time, men were used to having women agree with everything they said. He does show remorse after she starts crying mainly because he remembers that she should be treated as if she was on a pedestal. When it comes to women he desires, he treats them as if they were on a pedestal in order to help with his intentions to convey his feelings, but other than that Holden treats women the same as he treats men. When he was sitting next to the mother he did lie to her, but it wasn’t because she was a woman, it was because she looked rich and had a kid that went to Pencey. He constantly acknowledges his disliking of the phony people that go to preppy schools and are wealthy because they usually act snobbish, but once he continues his conversation with her he realizes that she is actually sweet and not like his prejudice that he developed of people that looked like her. When he sat next to the nuns, he acted truthfully from the start because he knows that nuns are humble and nice. Holden acts like any other respectful man, if he takes interest of a woman he treats them on a higher level but is quick to take the pedestal away if she doesn’t go along with him, but ultimately respects woman.
ReplyDeleteI would not go as far as to call Holden a misogynist only because the level of disrespect he's shown women throughout the novel he's also displayed towards men. There are also moments when Holden held woman at a high level of respect, for example with the nuns. He was courteous and enjoyed their company, and had he been a misogynist he would've insulted them or ignored them in some way. Also, he held a fond appreciation for Jane. This may be because she had a childlike innocence that he probably couldn't find it in himself to disrespect her. Because of this maybe we can conclude that Holden's attitude towards women can be linked to their behavior. Perhaps if every woman that Holden encountered was wholesome and subservient he would hold them to a much higher degree of respect and regard.
ReplyDelete-Andrea Pagano
I strongly agree with Brenden's claim that Holden is merely confused rather than a misogynist. Although Holden does speak negatively about many girls such as the ones in the bar, he does seem to have built a liking toward Jane. Also following up on Brenden's quote "I think if you don’t really like a girl, you shouldn’t horse around with her at all, and if you do like her, then you’re supposed to like her face.." (pg. 90), readers can see that Holden is much less interested to commit acts of sexual encounters, but feels men should praise the outside of a woman. Even though Holden lied to the woman on the train, i believe he did that to prevent disclosure of personal information, which in turn, i feel that even though it would have been a man he was talking to, he still would have lied. However, as Mr. Rodriguez said, Holden does not give the woman very much respect. Since he does this along with speaking negatively about other girls, i feel that he thinks every girl is the same except for Jane. Holden may perceive Jane as a unique girl with a different type of personality, just like Holden is a significantly different guy from the others.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSince the beginning of of this story i have felt that Holden was a very negative person in general not towards just women but men as well. After reading the book I feel that Holden acts this way because of the loneliness he is facing. I have made the assumption that Holden is rather envious of those people in a way. For example, when talking about the idea of love or seeing it, Holden always has a negative comment on the subject. Because we have discussed whether we trust Holden as our narrator in a previous blog post, I believe that matter should be brought up here. I may not have enough evidence to support my claim but I do not trust Holden as a narrator. I feel as though Holden has these negative comments on not only women but other subjects as well because he is actually very insecure.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to referring to himself as suave, I feel as though he says it to boost his morale. Many times throughout the book I feel as though he isn't even talking to the audience, I feel as if he is actually talking to himself due to his lack of companionship.
-Devin Wong-Magusara
Holden's perception of women seems to very negative.It is apparent that it takes a whole lot for someone to get on his positive side no matter male or female. I do not believe he is a misogynist, however he just does not understand or know how to approach women. Throughout the novel, Holden generalizes women quite often stating how there either smart or boring. The only women he seems to respect our the ones most closest to him like his sister Phoebe and good friend Jane. I think he speaks positively of Jane because he grew up with her during his childhood as well as with his sister Phoebe. The other women/girls mentioned in the novel he has built no stable connection with therefore he is very negative and blunt towards them. Holden is very close minded when it comes to women and always tries to put on act around them rather than just be himself.
ReplyDelete-Jasmine Simmons
I personally don’t think Holden is a misogynist even though in the nightclub he talks about the three women in a derogatory manner. Like my peers have said above, Holden doesn’t only speak bad about women but men too. It has to do with his age that he only has limited respect for others. It’s mostly adults and boys his age he doesn’t respect. He wants to protect younger children like his sister Phoebe, who he thinks is extremely intelligent and one of his favorite people. And he puts girls his age on a pedestal like Jane Gallagher, I say this because of the passage on page 73, “That’s the thing about girls. Every time they do something pretty even if they’re not much to look at, even if they’re sort of stupid, you fall half in love with them, and then you never know where the hell you are. Girls. Jesus Christ. They can drive you crazy. They really can”. When it comes to Jane Gallagher, he keeps her image pure and that is why he is so bothered by the idea of Stradlater and Jane together in a car. He’s more attentive to her personality, humor and the little things she does than her physical appearance.
ReplyDeleteHolden is a child, he does not understand the weight of his words. He in fact does call several women names throughout the book. but to be fair he does that to not only women but men as well and of all ages. seeing how feminism is about equality lets be fair and see how Holden talks down to everybody just to feel good about his insecurities.
ReplyDeleteHe is not exclusive to one gender, He talks down to many people throughout the book. He finds old people disturbing, some women as witches (even when he befriends a prostitute) and others as fake.
What we witness throughout the book the insecurities of a 16 year old whom because he does not know what to do with his life so he bashes everybody he can just to make himself feel better.
some individuals view that as something negative but haven't we all done that at some point of our lives? specifically in our teenage years.
-Christian Viscontti
I consider Holden to generally like women more than look down upon them. Just like any immature teenage boy he tends to sexualize adults and older women. In the novel, on his first night in his hotel room alone he continuously tries to capture the attention of older women but avoids deep conversation. Nonetheless, when he is about to finally achieve his sexual desires with a prostitute he withdraws and tries to converse with her. Holden expresses that the prostitute appears very young, and I can imagine he didn't want to harm her because he associates her with lighter more innocent figures such as Phoebe and Jane. Phoebe and Jane are much different to Holden than all the other female characters introduced throughout the book. I have concluded this is because they both hold a personal bond with Holden. I’d also like to add that Holden is very fond of his childhood; because they are both associated with his past and correlate to his youth he is able to identify with them. Since Jane and Holden have experienced such a personal relationship from his cherished early years he was able to transfer his wholesome thoughts onto her into adolescence. Phoebe is his younger beloved sister who looks up to Holden and also holds a childlike openness to her; Holden can’t help but connect her to his own happiness and modestness as a child.
ReplyDeleteIn reference to the women on the train into the city, I believe that Holden lies to the women on the train because he doesn't fully trust adults. Besides his small amount of attraction to her, I suspect that he would much rather isolate himself and his whereabouts than disclose his full intentions when leaving Pencey. In my opinion this is because he holds a lust for the women and in a manner of speaking doesn't want to disappoint or worry her. In other words he doesn’t want to associate any negativity with the women he finds flattering.
-Caitlin Jensen
Holden is not exactly a misogynist but rather an ill-mannered and rude character. However, it is clear to me how this topic would come up as I noticed, while producing my journals, a remark made by Holden that could be taken as such. The seemingly misogynistic line is as follows "she had a tiny wheeny-whiny voice. You could hardly hear her. She never said thank you either, when you offered her something. She just didn't know any better" (Salinger 105). The key part of this quote would be the last comment he makes regarding the girl as it could imply that he thinks little of the knowledge of girls and their ability to act well. However, it is easily possible that this remark is made due to Holden observing that she is about his own age yet has made the questionable decision of becoming a prostitute. This would support that Holden is not in fact a misogynist at this point but a boy who perceives others as they present themselves, for example, he also seemed to treat Sally as though she needed specific guidance not to be late only after having noticed with previous interactions that she has a habit of being late. Additionally, he went as far to make sure he had made the meet up time earlier than the actual show, allowing for a small degree of tardiness to occur on Sally’s side.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading about the quite few interactions Holden ha throughout the story, I would say Holden does look down on women. First, it was the mother of Ernest Morrow at the train station, he lied to this woman about her son and personal things, then it was the nuns, he repeatedly stated how sorry he felt for them to be forced to go around collecting charity money, again there was D.B.s ex girlfriend that Holden ran into at the club and he did nothing but bad mouth the woman to the readers. All of these instances show how Holden could be seen thinking himself superior to women because he had the ability to lie to them, be disrespectful with no second thought. However the only 2 women Holden has not hd this same superiority reaction to, was his sister Phoebe and Jane Gallagher. He almost idolized these two women.
ReplyDelete-Isaiah Wilson
I would say that Caulfield shows the same amount of respect towards both women and men. In some cases Caulfield can put women in pedestal ,and he can also look down on them. Caulfield in fact respected women, this is proven by the sweet conversation he had with two nuns during breakfast, " I said i'd enjoyed talking to them a lot, too. I meant it, too. I'd enjoyed it even more though I think." ( Salinger 125) This is significant because Caulfield truly did show that he enjoyed the company of the two nuns which was surprising because Caulfield always had to mention something inferior about the people he met and more importantly he truly had antipathy to conversing with people especially new people, but not in this case. When it came to Jane, Caulfield definitely did place her in a pedestal. He portrayed her as a beautiful and understanding women disregarding the fact that he had not seen her since summer time. Throughout the novel Caulfield refers back to Jane often and he just admires her way of being. As I mentioned in the beginning, Caulfield can also look down on women at times. We can see this during the date Caulfield and sally had. At first, Caulfield admires her beauty and way of being, but as soon as Sally disagrees with Caulfield's proposal of running away and getting married, Caulfield was quick to judge her. This proves that Caulfield placed women he felt strong connections with on a pedestal, but once things went wrong, he was quick to treat them just like he would treat men. Going back to the scene where Caulfield lies to Eddie's mother, a classmate from Pencey, I feel like Caulfield was not intending to be disrespectful just because she looked like a very wealthy women, Caulfield lied to her to get revenge you can say. Caulfield was always complaining about the phony students in Pencey , Eddie being one of them and now that he is having a conversation with his mother I feel like Caulfield saw this as a perfect opportunity to lie about her sons way of living at Pencey. This scene however, totally back fires on Caulfield because through the conversation he realizes that eddies mother was a very sweet women and he even regrets lying to her since the beginning.
ReplyDeleteDuring the book Holden consistently portrays a naive character. During his interaction with women, however; it is evident that he desires them, and wants to use them. Not knowing how to talk or be with women he views them as ignorant and stupid because they do not see what he is trying to do with them, or because they do not want to be with him. I believe that he is not a misogynist, or that looks down upon women, he is rather jealous or confused on how women naturally are. He does not understand them, therefore he becomes frustrated and almost resentful towards woman. In this sector I felt pity towards Holden. He seemed to be alone and unaware of reality. In the whole book the only women that he talks well of is his mother, Jane, and Phoebe his sister. I believe that he speaks positive of them because he loves them all, but does not know how to express himself correctly when talking about them. Though I was offended by his abhorrent comments about females, I saw just how nescient and oblivious he is, and felt sorry for him. I can see a bit of genuine discontent and loneliness towards the narrator in this scenario which caused me to feel some pity, however; personally, I still view him as a dumb teenage boy.
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost, Holden is a teenage boy. He comes packed with all of the rebellion, vulgarity, and lust that it entails. Also, because this is before the feminist movement, men are not taught or compelled to speak highly of women, simply speaking of them as housekeepers or mothers and judging their potential by that. Because of this, Holden often judges women by their beauty or sex appeal, not an uncommon concept during the time, and not an uncommon concept in the modern age. Because of this, I believe that while Holden is simply carrying on the tradition of the time in looking down on women, he is still a misogynist because of it. He respects those who have raised him and those he falls in love with, but not women who he has no use for. In this aspect, Holden could very well be a control freak as well as a sex-loving pig, using women to his advantage in his daily life. After all, he did go to a prep school designed to accelerate the growth of men and keep out women.
ReplyDeleteAfter having read the whole novel, and reflecting on the way Holden talks about females; I think the narrator is not a misogynist, but he does not admire women either. Holden to me is in the middle, meaning he does not dislike women but he also does not like all of them either.
ReplyDeleteAs stated earlier, when he is on the train speaking to a mother of one of his acquaintances, he does not care to speak to her with the truth, but yet he does that with men too. It is not so much that he does not respect that woman specifically, but he would rather not be truthful, as he usually is not with others. Then again, when he is at the night club with the three women, his thoughts reflect no respect for the women, referring to them as "ugly", "morons", "witches", etc. Calling these women out like this, but yet asking to dance with them and paying for their drinks in the end, is contradicting.
Like I said earlier, this shows to me that he does not necessarily despise women but he does not value them all, as he calls some straight out ugly, and others like Jane Gallagher, "not exactly beautiful."
The way he mentions Jane, their moments together with detail, tells me he values her more than he does other women. When he has spoken to her, in those moments he recalls, I can see a hint of honesty, which is a quality he constantly does not present in conversations with other women. He also constantly mentions how he wants to see her, debating to call her, and spend time with her. Holden does not have this attitude towards other women and to my understanding that is what makes him a teenage boy who is not a misogynist, but rather he does not value all women for what they are, only really interested in women like Jane.
I personally don't see it as he hating women, however he does look down on them. I feel like it is due to a bad experience he had with them, maybe he was rejected by one and he feels like they are not all worth it, however he never mentions such an experience. Going back to the event when he was at the train with one of his friend's mother, he does not show any respect at all, it might be due to the fact that he doesn't really like the women's son, but it can also be due to the fact that she is a woman. He even lies to her about her own son and she seems very happy with what he is telling her, he tries to make her happy and proud at the same time which makes me a little confused on which are his real intentions when he is talking with her.
ReplyDeleteMentioning Jane proves that he doesn't hate all women, maybe he thinks that Jane wasn't like every other girl that he has met and this is why he feels attracted to her and also why he enjoys hanging out with her. It makes him crazy to think about Stradlater and Jane together because he actually like Jane and he doesn't want for someone like Stradlater to break her heart. He had real feelings for Jane but he never had the chance to interact with her, so it is never really clear what else was going on between them. It does surprise me when Holden doesn't mention anything about his mother or stepfather but I feel that it is just because he isn't really close to them he is always at prep schools, meaning he doesn't spend much time with them. I don't think he hates women, however I do believe he is very specific about the girls he likes and how they should be for him to approve them. He criticized the girls at the bar like he did to everyone else that he mentioned so it doesn't surprise me at all.
Overall Holden looks at everyone with an immediate judgmental attitude. Therefore I do not believe he hates women in particular, he judges them just as he would the males he encounters. However he is still a teenager and rather lustful as evidenced by my peer Daniel Manibusan. Thus he still occasionally sees women as a desire. Yet, when he comes close to satisfying that desire with a prostitute he fails to follow through. Which lead me to believe he is not entirely fueled by lustful actions.
ReplyDeleteYet what intrigued me the most was Holden's relationship with Jane. Since Stradlater's mention of her, Holden could not help but bring her up nearly every chapter. He questioned whether or not he should buzz her not, yet he never did. Although he never stated it, Holden made it clear that he must have had an attraction to Jane Gallagher. Why go through that much trouble to mention her so frequently in the novel? However it was interesting how he still thought he knew her after so long. This just reiterates the concept that Holden does openly welcome change.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden is not a misogynist. I can see where readers may have confused his treatment of females vs males as misogynist, however, in all honesty, he them equally. There times at which Holden objectifies women. For example, Sally Hayes. He does stereotype females when he says “The trouble is, I get to feeling sorry for them. I mean most girls are so dumb and all.” Shortly before this part these sentences, I became curious given that he says he stops when women say to stop, but he believes that most girls are “dumb.” Yet, he expresses his dislike in girls being used as sex objects. Holden clearly has a traditional mindset in which this act should occur between two people who care about each other. He is able to see and respect others as a non-sexist character. However, he does demonstrate the values of a sexist time period (predates the women’s movement). Holden does have flaws who seems to ironically judge others, men and women.
ReplyDelete-Hannah McElmoyl
ReplyDeleteThroughout reading this novel I’ve come to the conclusion that Holden is not a misogynist however, his behavior is definitely tainted by misogynistic ideals. Throughout the novel there are many women articulated, such as Holden’s mother, his sister, Jane Gallagher, Sally Hayes, Mrs. Morrow and Sunny. His reactions and opinions differ with each women. He holds his sister, Phoebe, on a petal stool with the intentions of “keeping her innocent”. On the other hand, throughout the book he has made sly comments degrading women which show that his perspective has been slightly tainted by misogynistic ideals. Through the course of this book you realize that Holden only appreciates a select few people in his life, while he categorizes the rest. When talking about women he explained that, “Most girls are so dumb and all. After you neck them for a while, you can really watch them losing their brains. You take a girl when she really gets passionate, she just hasn’t any brains” (Salinger 121). While Holden objectifies a few women in the book, one such being Sally Hayes, he never takes advantage of them and he hates the thought of other men doing so. He hints throughout the book about wanting children to keep their innocence and to not turn into “phonies”. At the end of the book he expresses the one thing he wants to be is “a catcher in the rye” as he said, “Anyway, I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all,” he tells his younger sister, Phoebe, “Thousands of little kids, and nobody’s around – nobody big, I mean – except me. And I’m standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff – I mean if they’re running and they don’t look where they’re going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That’s all I’d do all day. I’d just be the catcher in the rye and all. I know its crazy, but that’s the only thing I’d really like to be” (Salinger 224-225). The way he describes his ideal job is a caretaker position more than anything, which in these times was not common for a male to have as it was a “female position.” In all, as he does degrade women from time to time, Holden never acts in a rude or disrespectful manner toward any women in the book. On top of that he wants a job as a type of care taker to protect children’s innocence. Thus leading to the conclusion that he cannot be a misogynist if he is willing to take up a type of job in a predominately female work force.
I agree with what Zared and my other peers have mentioned about Holden. While reading this novel it is evident that Holden demonstrates respect for two women which are his sister Phoebe and Jane. Unlike other females such as his classmate's mother which he spoke to on the train as well as the three women that he met in the bar and did not speak very nicely of. This proves that he is not in fact a misogynist in the novel.
ReplyDeleteDue to the fact that he is still a teenage boy that not very familiar with sorting out his feelings toward females, he is aware of the fact that he is attracted to women. Additionally, he seems to be even more attracted to the girl Jane as evidence by when he is upset at his friend Stradlater for not treating her well and also wanting to call her later on in the book.
I also agree with the idea that my classmates brought up about him trying to act like an adult yet still having a sort of innocence because he is still young. For example when he talks about how he could have many opportunities to be with many females however he just is not in the mood or up for it when really it means he just is not ready.
-Mariana Simmons
Holden's attitude and remarks throughout the book are not particularly misogynistic. Though there are many instances of hostility toward women throughout the book, his intentions are not solely directed toward the female gender as he frequently criticizes his peers when contemplating the hypocrisy in which many in his particular social standing pertain to. That of the wealthy and privileged class. Where many actions and sources of behavior act as a source of frustration for the protagonist.
ReplyDeleteAs previously stated by my peers, Caulfield's adolescence is similar to that of any teenager. His many insecurities have led him to criticize others for the sake of self aggrandizement, not dependent on the fact that the individual is a female.
-Andres Gonzalez
Holden is at an age of adolescence in which he eventually considers sex. He does lack respect for women in many ways, and it could be argued that he does have specific feelings towards women in general. However, he I would say that he misogynist is too not quite the way to describe Holden. He seems innocent towards more mature concepts like sex and is very difficult around women. He has very difficult relations with many women, except for Jan Gallagher. Jane Gallagher represents the immature innocent side of Holden as she is kept in a more special place for Holden compared to the other women mention throughout the story. This is especially seen when Holden imagines Jane having relations with someone else and lashes out.
ReplyDeleteMoreover, he does seem to want to have relations with women, as he is seem often flirting and almost taking part of prostitution. However, he always seems to back out and lacks any real relationship with women outside of his feelings for Jane. Overall, this paints Holden as immature and innocent, revealing that although he does seem to want to, he does not throw away his virginity in order to follow his own ideals.
-Seth Yves Perez
Like most of my peers, I don't believe that Holden is a misogynist nor does he hate women. I think it is important to keep in mind both the time period and the world that Holden lives in. In another post it was mentioned that this novel was written about ten years before the first book aimed at the feminist movement. This needs to be kept in mind because this means that world that he grew up and will continue to grow up in, will have little to no regard for the rights, esteems, and dreams of women. This attitude is reflected in the character of Holden who lacks depth perception of women. To him they are nothing but mere dopey objects that are given value based on their looks and mannerisms, rather than the intellectual parts if themselves. This isn't necessarily his fault, because this is how he was taught to view and treat women. However, the character of Jane is something much different. Holden definitely places Jane on a pedestal. For what reason? I'm not exactly sure, however, I was thinking maybe because she represents purity and innocence in a world that is way less than that.
ReplyDeleteThere was no significant female lead character in “Catcher in the Rye”. Consequently the story revolved around Holden and his feelings of isolation, suicide, and depression. Throughout the book, many female characters are introduced and each one had been described in a mocking and sadistic manner by Holden. However, I don’t believe that the comments made towards the women in the book are meant to come across as misogynistic. In fact, I think Holden is tactless in general. Holden treats both men and women in the book the same: by ridiculing them. There is no significant difference between the way Holden treats female characters and male characters. I’ve noticed that when describing those around him, Holden likes to pinpoint and emphasize the character’s attributes that he is most unsatisfied with. He calls both men and women phonies, he makes fun of their appearances, and he lies to both of them; he does this in a defensive manner mostly.
ReplyDeleteHolden does not ridicule women exclusively and I would not consider him a misogynist. Despite this book being published before the women’s movement, I don’t believe the author’s intention was to solely satirize the female characters in the book. In my opinion, Holden mocks the female characters and the male characters equally.
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ReplyDeleteMy belief is that Holdem does not disrespect some women just because of their gender, rather than he is just like that to all people. He mentions early on the in the book that if he wants to get a laugh out of something, he will. He does this mainly to his peers such as Stradlater and Ackley. He respects some females, especially his sister Phoebe and Jane who is only mentioned throughout the story but never there during it, but is always on Holdems mind. Holdem even goes to the extent of not deciding not to have sex even when there is a prostitute in his presence. I agree with my peers saying that he did it mainly due to his innocence, but he also began to notice a few things such as her being nervous and being the same age as him. He also mentions that even though he has attempted to lose his virginity previously, if the girl says to stop, he stops.
ReplyDelete-Jorge Tejeda
I believe that Holden is not a misogynist but rather I agree with some of my peers that he is confused. He attempts to try and act adult like in his social status and in the way he treats people. I can say that I notice the same general lack of respect towards both men and women. I think that he does show some disrespect towards women like in the scene where he is in the company of three ladies at a nightclub. He seems to be overly critical of each one of them in his thoughts. Even though at some moments Holden may seem disrespectful towards women, I do not agree that they are his target specifically because he does also show how fond he may be of some women in his life. For example, he shows a great amount of interest in Jane and even seems to be overprotective when learning of her date with Stradlater. Holden becomes so concerned with her well-being that it is clear how much he truly respects and admires her. Another women he seems to be in awe of is his sister Phoebe when he states how intelligent she is and what a great overall personality she has. It seems all too clear his admiration for her because he explains how happy he is made to feel in her company.
ReplyDelete- Daniela Vargas
Although Holden does direct many derogatory comments to various women throughout the novel, he does similarly aim his comments at many men. I think Holden is not so much misogynistic, but a very judgmental person to all genders and ages. He negatively describes many of his past roommates based on their appearance and their opinions and does so for the girls he encounters swell. He admires his sister and Jane greatly and also admits to enjoy having a nice conversation with two nuns he encounters. His evaluations of others vary and are often contradicting and this may be caused by the inner turmoil he is encountering with his emotions, loneliness and thoughts about phonies and society.
ReplyDelete-Atlantis Rodriguez
Holden is very judgemental towards females, he is also very opinionated regarding, schools, capitalism, suitcases, and pretty much everything except his younger siblings. Much like everyone in that time period (and today for that matter), Holden seems to have an opinion about everything, especially on the subject of woman. This does not however, mean that he is a misogynsist, simply that he is a teenager that likes to look at and show off around women. He keeps everything that he finds is not phony in a pedestal, this includes the women he respects. for example, after speaking with the two nuns he says " I said I'd enjoyed talking to them a lot, too. I meant it too, I'd have enjoyed it more tho,I think, If I hadn't been sort of afraid the whole time I was talking to them" (146). Because he respected what the nuns did and their way of life, not only does he not degrade them, but he actually starts feeling below them and afraid hat they would ask him about religion and as a result, stop respecting him. In contrast, when speaking to Mrs. Morrow, he does not show any respect towards her. He decides that to amuse himself and lie to her, not because she is a women, but because once he finds out that a person, regardless of sex, isn't too sharp, he beggins to lie and to entertain himself. Finally, when speaking of the natural anomally, Jane Gallagher, he does not have a single bad thing to say about her. When speaking about her he admits that "I think I really like it best when you can kid the pants off a girl when the opportunity arises, but it's a funny thing. The girls I like best are the ones I never really feel much like kidding" (101). The reason that he seems to worship Jane so much is because he can't kid as much with her, because he finds her sharp and therefore never talks badly of her. Holden is not an old fashioned pig, he simply is a very observant person who cannot hide his feelings and opinions.
ReplyDelete-Rodrigo Blanco
In my opinion, I think Holden can be both misogynistic and respectful towards women. There are times when he would look down on women, but there are also times when he would show respect towards women. A time he was misogynistic is in chapter 10, when he was at the club and saw those three women sitting at the table, he would describe them as "morons" or "ugly". An example of Holden being respectful towards a woman is in chapter 13, when he had a prostitute come up to his room. Instead of having sex with her, he just wanted to converse. Holden is misogynistic towards women in society as a whole, but when it comes to women individually, he respects them as a person and doesn't judge them based off of the stereotype that men are greater than women. I noticed that Holden has more respect towards Jane simply because he has feelings towards her. He usually views as all women being the same, but he saw Jane as the exception.
ReplyDelete-Mikayla Lubong
I agree with many of my peers that Holden is not misogynist, but he is very opinionated. As seen in the novel he has an opinion on almost everything ranging from people to subjects. Due to this being during the pre-feminist era, it was seen as acceptable to have derogatory terms for many minority groups. In the first case on lying to a fellow Pencey's students mother, was due to her view on the school and the students. She had such a positive view on the school, staff, and students that Holden found it easier for him to add onto the lies that seemed agreeable with the mother. The reason is seemed that he did not respect her was because in Holden's terms she was a "phony". The one female he seemed to respect was Jane Gallagher. In many times when he was in contact with females he enjoyed kidding with them, yet he set a boundary with Jane. Due to it being the pre-feminist it was encouraged to discuss about "necking", in order to fit in. This relates back to Ackley always describing sex, yet no one really believing him. It was a form of fitting in. Other encounter with female includes the interaction with two nuns, as mentioned by other peers. He respected these women and their path in life. When compared to the three women he met at the club, he judged them through their actions. He felt the lifestyle of someone wasting their time in hopes of meeting a movie star were "phony". In cases where he would find a female he would not classify as "phony" he would put on a pedestal.
ReplyDeleteWhen we analyze the way Holden interacts with females we have to take into serious consideration that he goes to a prep school where as we know girls were nearly never around. So this in turn can show that Holden is pressured to conjure up his own image of females based on what he hears from others around him, mainly from his prep school peers. The way he views a female and treats them is dependent on the relationship between him and the female, for example the girls he saw in the lounge were strangers and made it easy for Holden to judge and in his way disrespect them. But a girl like Jane Gallagher which Holden feels is one of the only girls he has a true connection with is given so much respect that he claims is the reason he hasn't done anything sexual with her.
ReplyDeleteTuesday, July 19, 2016
ReplyDelete12:43 AM
I believe that Holden is not necessarily discriminatory towards women, nor does he try to be. Looking in on his behavior from a 21st century perspective is hard, because our ideals are totally different. Back then, it obviously wasn't a huge issue to stereotype blondes as being unintelligent, as shown in the Lavender nightclub, where the three sisters are perceived by Holden to all be very boring and not very smart. The one thing he does say about them is that one is a very good dancer, and honestly, him being a teenage boy, I would expect no more from him, especially if he was raised on pre-feminist ideals. He does not just offer negatives in regards to the women he meets, just like he doesn't offer only positives about the boys in his life. Remember, Ackley and Stadlater are both described in vivid detail by Holden, and most of what he says about them is derogatory. He addresses the women similarly. It is just the way he looks at life and people as a whole, viewing everything under the same lens. Meeting and getting to know Jane certainly changed his point of view on other women, and I notice that he doesn’t regard any of the women he meets with the same amount of respect. This is natural, after all, once you experience a good thing, it is hard to look at similar ones without comparing. What Jane and Holden had as kids was a very immature relationship that could be called a beginning of a crush, but I wouldn't even call it that. To me, they just seemed like very close friends, and it is this sort of innocent relationship that he lacks in all of his other interactions with women, which could cause him to judge other women he meets so harshly.
-Kayla Manness
I think Holden can be respectful towards women but also sexist at the same time. There are times when he would disrespect on women, but he also would show respect for women. A time he was disrespectful to women is in chapter 10, when he was at the club and saw those three women sitting at the table, he described them as group of morons and two of them ugly. Holden is sometimes sexist towards women in society as a whole, but when it comes to women individually, he respects them as people and doesn't judge them because of the stereotype that men are greater than women. I noticed that Holden has more respect towards Jane simply because of he has feelings towards her.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Marianna that Holding is indeed not a misogynist and in fact that he sometimes displays a strong affection to women, especially his sister Phoebe and his friend Jane. For example, it is seen that he was desperately in the mood of calling both of them while he was wandering in the streets of New York. The only thing that preventing him from doing so is the fact that their parents might accidentally be the ones to answer the call. Yet even so, he even questions himself if he should still do it. Not only that, but throughout the book he recalls decent memories of them, displaying admiration in the process. For instance, he once stated that, “you never saw a kid so pretty and smart in your whole life”. This emphasizes how Phoebe is a remarkable girl. Similar to Phoebe, Holding portrays Jane as having something special about her as well. He demonstrates his affection by stating, “she was pretty young, but she had this terrific figure, and I wouldn’t’ve put it past that Cudahy bastard”. Not only does he believe Jane possesses great qualities, but he also seems protective of her against other men who he suspects might be mistreating her. This goes to show his deep affiliation with both his sister and his friend Jane.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Marianna that Holding is indeed not a misogynist and in fact that he sometimes displays a strong affection to women, especially his sister Phoebe and his friend Jane. For example, it is seen that he was desperately in the mood of calling both of them while he was wandering in the streets of New York. The only thing that preventing him from doing so is the fact that their parents might accidentally be the ones to answer the call. Yet even so, he even questions himself if he should still do it. Not only that, but throughout the book he recalls decent memories of them, displaying admiration in the process. For instance, he once stated that, “you never saw a kid so pretty and smart in your whole life”. This emphasizes how Phoebe is a remarkable girl. Similar to Phoebe, Holding portrays Jane as having something special about her as well. He demonstrates his affection by stating, “she was pretty young, but she had this terrific figure, and I wouldn’t’ve put it past that Cudahy bastard”. Not only does he believe Jane possesses great qualities, but he also seems protective of her against other men who he suspects might be mistreating her. This goes to show his deep affiliation with both his sister and his friend Jane.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteHolden does not only demonstrate disrespect towards women if not men as well. Therefore, I do not believe Holden targets women in a demeaning matter. If anything Holden seems afraid and hesitant towards women, and I believe this to be true due to his own insecurities. Holden’s relationship with Jane goes beyond anything physical, he treats her with respect and views her as innocent. He is clearly very defensive towards her, for instance that confrontation with Stradlater was all because of Stradlater making inappropriate remarks and jokes about his night with Jane. The anger that built up in Holden is similar to the anger he felt when Allie died, therefore he views Jane much more than any other girlmor lover, to Holden, Jane is someone he can always talk to and have a healthy ideal relationship with. Additionally, the part of the novel when Sunny , a prostitute, gives Holden the opportunity to finally experience a sexual encounter he decides he just cant do it. Holden does not view sunny as a sexual object eventhough she is a prostitute, on the contrary he views Sunny as a person with feelings and emotions, someone’s daughter. Holden’s overall feelings towards women is not hate, women have a particular effect on him and bring out some raw and genuine emotions in him.
-Natalie Aguilar
I don't think Holden is a misogynist nor does he praise women. He simply tells us what he views them as in a very descriptive and detailed way. For example the mother of the student from Pencey he described her as a mother who cares for her son and he just plays around with her because she is so gullible to believe positive stuff about her son. Then there would be the three women from seattle who he spoke of as ugly and he ended up having a negative view of them because they were there just for a show and to find rich hollywood type guys. Even though he has these negative views on women he also has positive views of them such as with Jane. Although she wasn't pretty by his standards he enjoyed her company and got quite fond of her and didn't have anything bad to point out about her as he has done for most of the book with everyone other character. Then there is Phoebe who also has her bad traits but she is a very kind and playful child who Holden cherishes as a sister. Although Holden seems like he is a misogynist or praises women I believe he has a regular view of women but has descriptively described them as very good positive or very negative.
ReplyDelete⚫️Holden, like many other literary characters, have their individual views regarding females and their roles in society. Seeing that Holden's story occurred prior to the beginning the feminist movement helps the reader understand that his views are different between the female characters throughout the novel. On the train, for instance, Holden strikes up a conversation with a mother of one of his fellow Pencey students but lies to her about who her son really is at school. However, Holden throughout this conversation mentally compliments Ms. Morrow's charm and mother-like personality, contrasting his demeaning attitude towards other women. Although he shows this side early in the story, the scene in the nightclub reveals a more disrespectful side to Holden's perspective in women. His language towards the women is similar to the kind of words used to describe women prior to the feminist movement when they were placed below the male population. Holden's views of the women in the novel varies between scenes but also reflects past perspectives.
ReplyDeleteWhat is most interesting about the way he perceives Jane is that it is a view that teenagers know about: love. The way he describes their relationship reflects how much he admires her and her company. Although there is very little interaction between the two characters, Holden speaks of Jane with a different tone of compassion towards his dear friend. This all contributes to the mixed up state of mind I believe Holden maintains throughout the story. He holds many views towards each individual female character, and this conveys conflicting messages of Holden's central view towards women.
-Leiana Lepule
Although Holden comes off as hating women he actually carries much respect for them. But he also believes that most if not all women are dumb and not as intelligent as men are. Though he has these belifs he still loves and has so much respect for his younger sister phoebe. Around this time era most people believed and saw women as phony which would be no surprise if Holden believed the same.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like Holden has a mean and judgemental attitude towards women. For example, he calls them dumb and ugly. However, that is his blunt personality, and he acts like that with everyone. He is only disrespectful due to the appearance and actions of the women.
ReplyDeleteHowever, he does not perceive Jane in any negative way. It seemed like Jane holds a significant spot in Holden’s life because he repeatedly talks or thinks about her. Another female in his life is his younger sister, Phoebe, who he loves dearly and would do anything for.
Overall, I do not believe Holden is a misogynist. Also, he does not hate them nor does he praise them in any way. The only females that seem to matter to him are the ones that are special to him such as Jane and Phoebe.
- Janelle Douglas
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ReplyDeleteAs many others have stated in previous comments, I too believe that it is Holden's age and immaturity that play key factors in what can be interpreted as his distaste for women. He often uses harsh words like "witch," "pretty ugly," and "wolf" to describe most women. However, his negative attitude is not aimed toward women exclusively. Holden generally dislikes most people because he always finds a reason for them to be labeled as a phony.
ReplyDeleteConversely though, I also believe that he holds women to a higher regard than we give him credit for. People like Holden's sister Phoebe, and his friend (and possibly love interest) Jane are highly valued by Holden. He'd practically do anything for Phoebe -he literally abandons all of his erratic plans to move away and find work in some distant ranch because Phoebe was upset that he wouldn't allow her to go with him. And in contrast to how Holden feels about most women, who he views as sexual items, he holds Jane to a high regard and is basically the only true friend he's ever had, and the only girl that he's ever loved. By definition, a misogynist is a person who is strongly prejudiced against women. While Holden does display a slight distaste towards women, it does not necessarily make him sexist, because he displays this type of attitude towards almost everyone. For these reasons, I do not believe that Holden is a misogynist.
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ReplyDeleteSimilar to my peers, I believe that Holden is not necessarily a misogynist, but instead has a rather bleak disliking toward women. Although it is never explicitly stated in the novel, it would seem apparent that Holden’s distaste of women is a result of his lingering innocence. He claims that he is a "sex maniac" and up until he reveals that he is a virgin, the reader has every reason to believe him by the way he sexualizes certain women. However, once the truth is revealed, it is evident that his motives with most of the women in the novel are a result of his expectations. As Holden claims, he has had "quite a few opportunities to lose [his] virginity and all, but never got around to it" and that "the trouble with me is, I stop" (Salinger 103). This is demonstrated in his encounter with Sunny, the prostitute. Ultimately, Holden is slightly oblivious to the fact that it is his firm grasp of his remaining innocence that stops him.
DeleteSimilarly, Holden's attitudes toward women are dependent on whether or not they are associated with innocence. For example, Holden treats women such as Mrs. Morrow, the woman from the train, and the three young women from the Lavender Room rather disrespectfully, while still maintaining a strong sexual admiration toward them. However, he is dissatisfied with his perceptions of such women. On the other hand, Holden regards Jane with pure admiration, due to the fact that she is a strong reminder of his childhood and innocence. It is apparent that Holden holds more admiration for the women in the novel that he does not sexualize. For that reason, Holden was shocked and furious at the thought of her with Stradlater in the back of a car. He refuses to accept that Jane had adapted into a sexual being. Additionally, Holden develops an admiration toward the nuns he met. This perhaps is due to their association with purity and holiness. All in all, Holden perception of women throughout the novel is a reflection of the innocence he is trying to maintain.
-Nicole Isabelle
I also agree with my peers, I do not believe that Holden is a misogynist nor does he hate women. I believe that Holden's actions are not because they are female but more focused on the time period and his age. We must remember that women in the 1950's were looked down upon and considering his age, women weren't too much impact on him. He only set his attention to the women who he liked such as Jane Gallagher but doesn't mind anyone else like the mother of a kid at Pencey. With his atitude, it appears to me that he doesn't care about the other females unless he is fascinated by them.
ReplyDelete-Alessandra Gatchalian
To answer the first question:
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Holden is being rude to the lady he met on the train simply because she's a woman. He thinks she's a genuine person, not some phony. However, he learns that she's the mother of "one of the biggest bastards at Pencey." Now I'm going to imagine that I'm Holden for a second. The mom of a kid I don't particularly favor is talking to me. Am I going to be a snitch? Maybe I want to, but had that been my mother and some other kid in my place, I wouldn't want people to go around telling her how terrible of a kid she raised. I'd want them to sweet talk about me, ear tickle of you will. Tell her what every mom wants to hear: how great of a kid I have, and how well my kid is doing in school. So I think Holden is just amazed at how ignorant and oblivious an adult can be.
Another thing:
Holden doesn't like adults. So when he's talking to those girls in the bar, he's not necessarily speaking bad about them as people. He's speaking stereotypically about females in general. I don't personally agree with it, but you brought out a good point that this book was written before the 60s and before feminist icons such as Janis Joplin and Patti Smith were around speaking their minds. Holden isn't just hating on the women, he also isn't too hot with men either. Any figure of authority, actually. He's just got this rebellious atmosphere and doesn't want to grow up, therefore making him despise any adult.
Now Jane. Jane is special to the novel, and not just because she's mentioned every chapter. Holden doesn't have any hate towards her but instead reminisces about their childhood together and what seemed like the good ol' days. Seeing how he is facing growing up and the dreaded adulthood, he uses Jane as an outlet. A soft spot in his heart. She is the epitome of innocence. Holden himself is sure she didn't do anything with Stradlater, but the thought of her innocence being taken away angers him because the moment she's not innocent means he has no reason to be. It's fascinating don't you think? She keeps him sane without even knowing it, and if that's not beautiful in some way I don't know what is.
While I agree with many of my peers that Holden is not a misogynist, I can see that he does have slight sexist tendencies similar to that of many people from the 1950's. The main reason I believe that he is not a misogynist is because he seems to treat people of all genders with a certain disrespect. This most likely due to this cynical and lying nature. While he does insult those three women harshly, he does the same to Ackley towards the beginning of the novel. His criticism is not limited by gender, rather, it seems to be directed at the phonies that he dislikes. In addition to this, he does not seem to look down upon his sister, Phoebe, nor does he look down upon the nuns that he donates to.
ReplyDeleteEven though he is not a blatant woman hater, Holden does illustrate a slight disregard towards women. This is evident where he recalls the females that Stradlater has bedded excluding Jane. He views them simply as people that the attractive Stradlater has conquered. This also applies to the woman he calls late at night to have some drinks. He feels like bothering her this late at night for the off chance of sex is acceptable. While he does not seem to outright disrespect women nor does he hold them on a high pedestal, certain females, such as Jane and Phoebe, seem to be treasured and respected. This is most likely due to their preserved innocence within the mind of Holden.
Perhaps what he hates is not the gender of the people he ridicules, rather, it's their lack of innocence and their phony personas.
-Bisheshata Basnet
ReplyDeleteHolden does not hate women, in fact he admits that he likes them (ch 8). However, it is evident that his view on women has been shaped by the male chauvinism of his times. While he is not disrespectful to women, we can see that it is because he does not measure their worth in the same way he does to men. In the encounters Holden has had with women, i have noticed how he tends to sexualize them or judge them based on outward appearence. He even mentions that "every time they do something pretty, even if theyre not much to look at, or even if theyre sort of stupid, you fall have in love with them" (ch 10). This reveals not only his flawed perspective of women, seeing them as something to enjoy looking at or using for pleasure, but the flaws of the general social view of women. They were expected to look pretty and please men. And even though there are a few women he looks at with high regard, such as his sister and Jane, that is because he doesnt look at them so much as women but as more. However, even though he sees women in a degrading manner, it is not much different from the way sees and treats men. So perhaps Holden sees everyone (with a few exceptions) with inferiority, and the way he disrespects women is no less then the way he disrespects men.
In Holden's mind, he seems to view woman in a very stereotypical manner as many men in that era did. Growing up in the 1950's had to have a influential effect on him, understanding that men were the primary responsibility of a woman and that a man should be a more authoritative figure. But overall, it can be said that Holden does not purposely want to degrade women, and he somewhat acknowledges their presence and recognizes them as people. Due to the fact that he was only surrounded by his mother, and his sister, Phoebe, who he seems to show the most affection toward than any other female character. But due to his self-destructive behavior and his inability to keep healthy relationships with people, I do not think he intentionally wants to mistreat women. He even states, "I think if you don't really like a girl, you shouldn't horse around with her at all, and if you do like her, then you're supposed to like her face, and if you like her face, you ought to be careful about doing crumby stuff to it, like squirting water all over it. It's really too bad that so much crumby stuff is a lot of fun sometimes." Although explained in laymen's terms, he simply understands that you should respect women in general.
ReplyDeleteAs for Jane, it appears as Holden has a liking for her, and is the only woman, beside Phoebe, that he speaks in respectful regards of and was in awe over the innocent relations and memories they had shared and it did not alter his perception of women in any way.
-Camille Taylor
As others have mentioned in previous posts, if we take into account Holden's age he does not seem to know how to behave around women or is not aware of what is appropriate to say. Also, taking into account the time period men were the supporters of the family and women took care of the husbands or were barely able to support themselves after the war. An example of how Holden did not know how to associate with women correctly would be when he was with Sally and how they have barely reconnected and he already wanted to run off together and live a new life.Even though he was eventually angered with Sally that she would not go off with him, it was not because he hated women but because he wanted an excuse to get away from the life he had. The insults he made to women by using the words “morons” or “ugly” to name a few did not seem to be intentional. He is mostly overwhelmed with what has occurred in his life that he may also not be aware of what he says or does not care what he says about women because he feels as if everything else has already gone wrong in his life. In addition, Holden does not seemingly hold misogynistic views because he is not that way towards his sister Phoebe, Jane, or even the prostitute he paid even though nothing occurred between them. Phoebe was someone he held close to his heart and was so special to him that she always brightened his day; by him being so close to his sister it would not make sense for him to have misogynistic views. As the book moved forward, he kept referencing Jane and how he was going to call her but he never did. Holden always spoke so fondly of her and described her in such a way that it seemed to be that he truly cared for her. It was most transparent when he found out about her and Stradlater. He was so angered by the thought and wanted her to be with someone he would approve or at least better than Stradlater. Jane however seemed to have a deeper meaning than just his views on women. She was part of Holden’s childhood where he was happy and felt that nothing could truly go wrong. He seemed to reminisce in those moments when he felt that there was nothing to live for. He kept telling himself that he would call Jane so that he can move forward in his life and remember the happy memories. He never called her because deep down he did not want to. He may have felt that if he did and she had turned out to be someone different those memories to be with her would be lost and there would not be anything to help him move along in life. With Jane he seems to place her on a pedestal so that he can move forward and to think that life can get better. -Eileen Gutierrez
ReplyDeleteI do not think Holden is a misogynist, because he treats women the same way he treats men. Although sometimes he seems to insult them, he does the same with his male friends. For example, the girls Holden met at the Lavender room he called “dopey” and “morons” and “ignorant”. This has to do with their personalities, not with the fact that they are girls. He hated the fact that they were never paying attention to him, and that they were only interested in famous people. It is no different from the way he called Ackley “nasty” and “terrible”, and the way he called Luce “flitty” and “annoying”.
ReplyDeleteHolden actually seems to hate men that treat women badly. For example, he got mad at Stradlater for not caring enough about Jane, and he is upset that the men that marry beautiful women are all “jerks”. Holden perceives Jane as someone he needs to protect, which is why he wanted to keep her away from Stradlater and her stepfather. It seems as though he wants to protect her from other men.
When taking the train and sitting next to the mother of one of his Pencey friends, Holden enjoys lying to her. But, he doesn’t do it because she is a woman, but because he only has foul memories of her son, and happens to take it out on her. He even claims that she is a very pleasant lady, and that he likes her more than her son.
I think Holden's misconception about women has to do with the fact of his first impressions versus his overall opinion of a girl. We see in two different scenarios all with a different outtake. When Holden entered the bar that night and sat down with the three older women from Seattle, he often made comments towards their outward appearance as that was all he could base them upon as he had just met them. A lot of the comments he made such as one being "ugly" and "dopey" all had to do with his first impression. Whereas the cases where Holden brings up Jane Gallagher, he often brings up the past he had with her and the fact of how she kept all her kings in a row. Every time Jane was brought up, it is as if we hit a soft spot in Holden's emotions as he contemplates his emotions with her and whether or not he should call her up. The two differences we see here was that one who knew of and one he knew completely nothing about. So as to say Holden is a misogynist is putting it out there, but really he is like many of us who pre-judges a person before he even gets the chance to actually know who they are.
ReplyDelete-Nathan Malicdem
Holden's rudeness and negativity can be seen not just towards women, but to everyone. To say that he is a misogynist is quite an allegation that needs to be backed up with further evidence. He has called both women and men certain names such as "phony", "moron", "ugly" and "annoying". I wouldn't say that his rudeness towards others is based on their gender, but based on his feelings towards them. For example, Holden isn't very fond of Ackley and therefore shares his thoughts about how he's "nasty" for he does not have good personal hygiene. If we go back to when Holden and Stradlater had a fight, we can remember that it was triggered by Jane. Holden wasn't really fond of Stradlater but Stradlater's advances to Jane and carelessness triggered Holden. His unpleasant experiences and feelings towards Ackley and Stradlater brought out Holden's rude behavior towards them.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the women in the nightclub, I think Holden misjudged them and used derogatory terms not because of their gender, but because just like every other human being we are prejudice towards others and we misjudge other people regardless of whether they are a man or a woman. We have all done it at least once.
Marie Manipud
After reading the book, doing some careful analysis and reading my classmate responses I also agree that the character Holden views on women are not necessarily intentional. We can see that the character does talk in a positive way to certain females such as his sister Phoebe and Jane. The people which he constantly criticizes throughout the novel are older women. I believe this is because Holden is scared of losing his youth right after the death of his younger brother Allie which affected him severely emotionally. Anything that has to do with elders or even higher type of authority makes Holden upset despite the gender making his attitude towards those women only due to the fact that they were old. I believe that on the inside Holden those in fact care about the opposite sex but due to his isolation from others and barely any interaction, he doesn’t know how to interact with others. Whenever he is with someone, his reaction is just to make up stories to satisfy their “snobby” behavior. Whenever he talks about Jane or Phoebe, he describes them as an admiration and wishes to be as smart and young as them. After reading, Holden does not hate women, he just has some trouble interacting with them which makes him fail at socially integrate himself due to his fear.
ReplyDelete-Diego Arriola
The way I interpreted the part when Holden creates mental depictions of him killing the pimp in the elevator and Jane Gallagher coming after and patching him up was that of psychotic. He obviously relates to movies and makes connections to them ironically, but he continues to make claims that he hates cinematic films. When he brings up that movies are corrupt, I began to understand what he meant. People who often watch films try to relate. Jane is really significant because he hides his secret love her but in his mental images, she is his jewel.
ReplyDeleteThe part when Holden doesn't take Allie to play with BB guns may not be significant to the reader, but it is to Holden because he replays this memory constantly when he thinks about his younger sibling.
As for gender roles, he is very respectful when it comes to Jane or his intelligent little sister phoebe. These two are in a special place in Holden's heart because he is usually resentful towards other women. Other women to him are snobby but Jane and Phoebe are very respected by him.
-Daniel Dorado
Throughout the novel, Holden's view of women varies. Upon his arrival to Manhattan, Holden enters the lavender room where he encounters three young women from Seattle and attempts to flirt with the most attractive of the bunch, while also calling her friends ugly. The women are too preoccupied with trying to be affiliated with a local celebrity, for this Holden views them as phonies. Whereas, when describing Jane Gallagher, Holden's heart fills with adoration and recalls times when they were young, when he was happy. He shows high esteem for Jane and does not portray her as snobby in the slightest.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden does not hate women, but he looks down on them at certain times. There are times where he talks bad about women, like at the bar. On the other hand, Holden talks about women in a good way like how he does with Jane Gallagher. Because of this, he is contradicting himself and it is hard to tell whether or not he hates women or loves them. When Holden is on the train, I think he lies to the mother simply because he doesn't know her and not because he was trying to be disrespectful. When he is talking about Jane, it seems like he is in love with her in a way and puts her on a pedestal. He perceives her as someone he truly admires. Even when he thinks back to the times they spent together, it is always positive and he enjoyed being around her. I do not think that Holden necessarily hates women, but he has mixed feelings about them depending on how they act or look.
ReplyDelete-Janessa Pujeda
Holden's distaste towards people is not limited to just females, but males as well. He has criticized both female and male characters. One moment, he can be perfectly fine when talking to them, and the next moment, he can be irritated by the smallest things they do, such as when Holden was talking to Mr. Antolini or when he was on a date with Sally.
ReplyDeleteHolden lies to the mother of his classmate, just as he also lied to people in the hotel and taxi. Holden does not lie because she is a female, but because lying seems to be in his nature. In the case of the night club, Holden seemed to mainly dislike the women because of their lack of intelligence. Although he did insult their appearances, his main problems with them seemed to be in their interactions and conversations with each other. The women didn't actually listen to what he had to say, similar to how he disliked Ackley for not really listening to him. Based on these interactions, I assume that he hates both males and females equally.
However, Holden thinks of Jane and Phoebe as different from the others. He genuinely likes them, unlike the other characters. Jane and Phoebe might act as ways that Holden can get away from feeling alienated, since he enjoys their company and does not have to joke around or lie. He has no trouble socializing with them, and that makes them different from everyone else in the story.
Emily Chan
Upon completing this novel, I would not classify Holden as a misogynist. Holden's tendency to act immature is established throughout that novel and would likely explain why his actions may appear misogynistic. Young individuals often dislike associating themselves with individuals of the opposite sex in fear of being insulted. This idea of gender separation is childish like Holden. This presents a possible explanation as to why Holden seems overly critical of women.
ReplyDeleteAlong with my other peers, I did note how Holden seems to genuinely admire certain females in the novel such as Jane and Phoebe. This would once again suggest that Holden isn't misogynistic, but rather, has legitimate reasons for possessing criticisms against other women in the novel. Perhaps he dislikes other women for being or appearing too mature, seeing as how he hates the idea of maturity.
I doubt that Holden actually puts women on a pedestal as well. Despite his loving actions towards Jane and Phoebe, I believe that Holden admires their youthful aspect as opposed to their feminine aspect.
Holden is, in few words, lost to the times. He isn't intentionally disrespecting women or looking down upon them. In this time there were issues with race, gender, religion, not unlike the times of today. Women weren't seen to the same extent as men. The only reason he viewed Jane highly was because of his emotional attachment to her, he loved her and she was unattainable, the best kind. The fact that he only regarded those he shared a connection with, only added to the hypocritical narcissistic feeling I received from the character. If he was so quick to disregard females and those who were more wealthy than he was then I am also not surprised that he lied to get by and lied to those around him constantly. The way he treats women is a direct reflection of how he views himself.
ReplyDeleteHolden Caulfield is not a misogynist. Holden has proven time after time that he is not one to speak fond of anyone or anything, with the exception of his younger siblings, Phoebe and Allie. Mr. Rodriguez brought light into a scene in chapter 10, were Holden becomes acquainted with three girls from Settle in the nightclub. This scene highlights Holden’s use of derogatory language when describing the three girls. He describes them as “ugly", "boring", "ignorant", "witches," "morons," and "dopey". Holden's description of the women can be interpreted as an ignorant, disrespectful remark towards women. However, at the end of the scene, when the women decide to leave the nightclub Holden offered, even insisted, to pay for their drinks, which to me seems like a very generous gesture for someone who supposedly hates women. Holden's generosity can also be seen in chapter 15, as he offered to pay for the nun’s food in the train, and by him donating 10 dollars for their next collection, as trinity Cruz pointed out. Furthermore, Holden's conversation amongst the nuns about literature, not only demonstrates that he does not believe in that women are not intelligent, but it also reveals his respect and admiration towards the nuns who seemed to be genuinely good and were purity in carnet, something Holden treasures in people. IN line with the way that he vies the purity of people, it is only females the he sees that way highlighting the fact that he has a special place in his life for women because they unlike him and any other man are more likely to be pure.
ReplyDeleteI personally do not think that Holden hates women. Although he makes crude remarks about them, he still counteract his words with his actions. He craves attention, he just does not know how to handle intimacy. Change makes him uncomfortable, and opening up to someone is terrifying thus he keeps to himself most of the time. When he went on a date with Sally, he basically confessed that he wanted to get away with her, he even said that they can get married if she wanted to, and he meant it. This shows that he is a lonely soul looking for affection. He masks his loneliness with disrespectful remarks, which drove females away, but that does not mean that he hates women, he just does not know how to express his feelings the appropriate way. That is how teenage boys are, they are confused and trying to find their way. In fact, they are also trying to find themselves, so it would be understandable that knowing how to properly treat a woman will not be their first priority at the moment.
ReplyDeleteOn the train, he bumped into a mother of his fellow Pencey student. At first it seemed like he did not give her much respect, but he felt bad lying to her as they kept talking. I do not think that he lied to her because she is a female; he said it himself that he lies all the time and he can go hours on it.
During that time, women are not viewed as beautiful. They are not valued as much. But Jane is different. I guess it is safe to say that Holden has feelings for her, he is just afraid to accept it so he did not call her beautiful. It is a lie to reassure himself that he is not in love. Falling in love is for mature people, and he is not willing to fall into that. Jane is precious to him though, he perceived her as something so lovely compared to the other females that he had encountered. Like I said, Holden does not hate women. He is only a teenager trying to find his way, he does not know how to properly express his feelings and he hides behind a 6 foot body.
- Jemima Subaran
On the topic on Holden's perception of women it is very tricky for he shows symptoms of multiple perceptions of women and it is difficult to depict him as just one. Throughout these first few chapters he mas multiple encounters with women and even reflects on some however he treats them with different levels of respect. For example at the hotel when Holden comes across three women he seems to sort of look down on them as if they are airheads and have no intelligence what so ever but however precedes to talk about how they are a thing of beauty. However for Jane she is not necessarily put on a pedestal as in worshiped but is however placed slightly above him in his eyes as she is better than him but in his reach. Last instance is where Holden interacts with an escort and does not want to take part in sexual relations but however only simply wants to talk. Therefore this rules out the option of him being a chauvinist. But however i believe he is somewhat of a mix between looking down on women and also treating them right. I believe he determines who gets which treatment by there personality so therefore not all women in his eyes are treated equally.
ReplyDeleteHolden on this topic actually confused me for there are many different ways he feels. He had made a "sex rule" to stop horsing around with girls, but the same night he broke that rule with a girl. Which you would make him seem like he is a pig only using girls. But, when he met Jane Gallagher (whom is Stradlater's date) he was very much jealous and worrying whether or not if they had sex, because he is clearly in love with her! Making him not a misogynist.
ReplyDeleteFrom my own perspective Holden's general take on women would not be generally hate or dislike however I think he seems to justify himself by believing that he is too young to understand what they want and on one side claims to be very sexy but on the other hand seems to want to talk about something different to them both however in most cases of how Holden sexualizes them he does that because I think that might be the only way he knows how to maybe classify someone whom he might have a crush on. Also I would to give him credit for this because I noticed a systematic way of his classification on women he only analyzes the type of women he possibly likes and respects the innocent ones as expressed in the part (page 121 ).overall I feel Holden isn't just misogynist and does not hate women, however he shares some for his society for typical perspective on women.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden distrust most people, including females, if they are as old, or older, as he is. Throughout the story, he treats girls he knew, or still knows, with a positive manner, while talking about older females in a condescending and negative manner. I suppose that he does not meet with Jane Gallagher because it might have ruined his perspective of her from his childhood memories. In short, Holden treats adults and teenagers much differently than he does a small child.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Holden distrust most people, including females, if they are as old, or older, as he is. Throughout the story, he treats girls he knew, or still knows, with a positive manner, while talking about older females in a condescending and negative manner. I suppose that he does not meet with Jane Gallagher because it might have ruined his perspective of her from his childhood memories. In short, Holden treats adults and teenagers much differently than he does a small child.
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