Dear AP students:
First, let's talk about an important theme
pertaining to Catcher in the Rye. That theme is
"alienation". The word alienation can be defined as the feeling
of "not fitting in" or "clashing with the values" of a
group or community. It's a popular theme in 20th century literature. The
tension or conflict that goes on between the individual and group makes for
great drama. In the 20th century, we found the individual feeling great
alienation caused by big government, oppressive dictatorships, war,
technology, the break up of the family, societal rules, and
dislocation.
Holden Caulfield feels a great sense of
alienation --he feels alienated toward his schools, his friends, his teachers,
his family, and a number of other aspects of society. In many ways, he's
no different from today's teens. Who among us haven't at one time or
another felt like an outsider? It's just that he feels tremendous alienation--after
all, he's been kicked out of several prep schools!
What I want you to analyze as you read this story
is the various ways Holden acts out in response to this alienation. What
does he think? Most importantly, what does he do? How does he
behave? He is indeed very dramatic in his actions. Tell me
what you come up with. Give me some specific examples.
Second, though he feels very alienated and
often times responds with great cynicism he sometimes pauses to seriously
reflect...and when he does it's very
lyrical, poignant, and cynicism-free. For example, there
is that passage on pages 4-5 when he tries to come up with a way
to "feel" good bye about leaving the school. He succeeds
by pausing to think of the time in October when he was chucking a football with
another classmate, and the day was getting darker and darker. Go back and
read it. I think that's a beautiful passage, and one that reveals
something important about the character. It shows how someone who is
deeply troubled and over the top wacky still has these great moments of
deep seriousness that are full of sincerity and/or innocence.
For all of you new seniors, how will you say
"goodbye" to Olympian next year? Will you be able to "get
a goodbye" by coming up with such a memory? Don't you want such a
memory? Or are you too much of a cynic? Have you already shed your
innocence?
Finally, did any of you get the fact that in the opening passage of this novel
that Holden is writing from the mental ward of a hospital? If you didn't,
go back and look for clues. He is writing this story in an extended
flashback--he is relating what happened on his journey over the Christmas
break...and it obviously caused such trauma that he ended up in need of
therapy. Knowing this important fact, does that change your perspective
on the character and what/how he is relating the story? In other words, if you
are reading the personal account of a depressed/mentally ill person, can
he be relied upon to be telling the truth? Does he have the clarity to do
so? Important fact...our author J.D Salinger spent a few weeks being
treated in a mental ward of a hospital around 1945-46--he was suffering from
post traumatic stress disorder immediately after WWII. He was a witness to
much warfare as the U.S forces fought the Germans, and he also saw the
concentration camps as the American troops liberated them.
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ReplyDeleteBased on what I’ve analyzed after reading the first few chapters of The Catcher in the Rye, I feel like Holden deals with his feelings of isolation by negatively judging his peers and those around him. For example, in chapter three, Holden describes Robert Ackley, a student who roomed next to him at Pencey Prep, as an unkempt, “very peculiar” person. His unkempt characteristics include having “lousy teeth” and “a lot of pimples” (pg. 23). When I originally read through this portion, I thought holding was simply trying to be humorous when describing Ackley. However, as the chapter progressed, I could sense that Holden feels annoyed about Ackley.
ReplyDeleteI’ve found that Holden points out the negative characteristics in others quite often. In the next chapter, Holden details his former roommate, Stradlater as “more of a secret slob” when compared to Ackley for trivial reasons, such as Stradlater using the same razor. Moreover, though he points out that Stradlater always looked alright, he notes that his roommate is overly conceited. For example, Holden says that “the reason he [Stradlater] fixed himself up to look good was because he was madly in love with himself” (pg. 31). Because Holden is so quick to identify the negative characteristics in others, I get the feeling that he has some sort of superiority complex and is masking his feelings of loneliness and detachment from others.
In response to Mr. Rodriguez’s questions regarding how we will say “goodbye” to Olympian, I plan to make my senior year the most memorable of my high school years knowing that there is going to be a huge leap from high school to college—though I will still challenge myself academically. I do not want to end up like Holden, who displays a sense of apathy toward his life. I'd like to hear what you all think in regards to Holden coping with his alienation.
-Brenden Gregorio
I also noticed that Holden describes all the other characters in the novel negatively. The appearances and actions of his peers, teachers, and family have all been criticized and continually belittled by the narrator. As Brenden stated, this is evidenced by Holden's descriptions of his peers at Pencey Prep, Ackley and Stradlater. Holden not only judges these boys appearances, but also makes harsh comments regarding their actions that cause Ackley to be viewed as brutish, slow, and ugly, and Stradlater to be seen as handsome, conceited, and selfish. Holden also is judgmental towards his history teacher, Mr. Spencer, which he describes as the type of man who "you wonder what the heck he was still living for" (pg.6). The narrator also mocks his older brother, criticizing his wealth, expensive belongings, and success as a writer, eliciting the idea that he had sold himself out (pg.1-2).
ReplyDeleteI agree with Brenden that Holden copes with his feelings of alienation through constant judgment and criticism of the people he interacts with, in order to prove his superiority to himself. He constantly judges others as a way to justify his alienation; if he believes he is better than them, then he can understand why he never seems to fit in with them.
Holden is relaying this story from a mental hospital, so as readers we are aware that Holden suffers from some form of mental illness. However, I do not believe that this thwarts Holden's ability to tells the truth. Holden's perspective is definitely shaped by his mental illness, yet it also allows Holden to provide greater insight regarding his experiences, and further develop his character. It is evident from the first three chapters that Holden is brutally honest, encouraging me to trust in him as a narrator. As previously discussed, Holden feels extremely alienated by others, and is consequently extremely critical and harsh. His blunt judgments not only provide details about other characters in order to further the plot, but also develop Holden's credibility as a narrator. Holden expresses all his thoughts and recollections, despite their ability to make him not liked or trusted by some readers. Many narrators reveal selected parts of their thoughts and actions in order to make themselves likeable and easy to relate to. Holden's constant judgments, as well as his continuous indecisiveness and contradictory statements, all support his ability to be a reliable narrator who provides all that he remembers of his journey over the Christmas break. The only factor which shifts Holden's reliability is that he is reflecting back on this experience. Time erases details and reconstructs experiences, making one's memory not entirely dependable for revealing the truth. Therefore, I conclude that Holden can be relied on to tell what he believes to be true, the story which we are forced to accept as the truth.
-Lilliana Conradi
When i first began reading the book, I too did predict that Holden had once been in a mental ward or institute. However, I doubted my thoughts on this because he attended such a high-class prep school. But as i continued reading, it is very clear to me that Holden does indeed posses some kind of mental problem.
ReplyDeleteGoing back to Mr. Rodriquez's comments on Holden's situation of feeling "alienated", I feel as if he dealt with his scenarios in a very similar way as to how a teenager in our generation today would have responded. Today, if a teenager does not seem to fit in with the "smarter" kids or the athletic students, they isolate themselves into a world where they do fit in. Sometimes, this world can involve drugs and alcohol. Other times, students just disobey rules, neglect to do homework and study, and disregard the common culture around them. I believe that the second description is the pathway Holden chose in this book. Although a bit later in the book he drinks a significant amount of alcoholic beverages, he often sticks to just negatively commenting on the world around him.
To answer some questions mentioned above, I would like to point out a few ways in which Holden responded negatively to the people around him. He called every boy at the prep school a "phony". Secondly, he turned on his brother. I mentioned both these instances on Post #1 as well, but I now find that they have more than just one significant meaning. Holden clearly does not have any sort of personal connection to the school he attends. He is not truly fond of any one or any thing. On pages 5 and 6, Holden briefly explains to the audience about how he forgot the fencing equipment for the team, causing the team to be angry with him. He called this scene "pretty funny". This proves that he does not feel anything towards the roles that he played at Pencey, neither the team's manager nor as a student. Mr. Rodriquez asked how we as seniors will say goodbye to Olympian at the end of this upcoming year. In comparison to how Holden was attempting to say goodbye to Pencey, I would have to predict that saying goodbye will not be easy for me as a student who participated in sports, clubs, and organizations within the school, and enjoyed the activities I was a part of. But similar to Holden, I will most likely not know exactly how to say goodbye. Therefore, whether one has close ties to their school or not, saying goodbye is not a straightforward concept. But Holden does not seem to grieve over the fact that he is leaving. He actually acts as if he is getting himself out of a jail cell where he has been suffering for so long.
In summary, Holden responds to his situation as an alienated student in a similar manner to how students today would typically respond: by rebelling and taking up a negative attitude. However, we must still appreciate that he is trying to find ways to say goodbye to Pencey.
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ReplyDeleteBrenden Gregorio's response revolving around Holden's apathetic attitude towards life is quite similar to what I was thinking. I noticed throughout the first few chapters Holden seems to lack a true bond with his peers. I realized his relationship with others did not indicate a heartfelt and close relationship with any individual, but rather a distant and shaky relationship with Holden's roommates at Pencey prep. One occasion I find Caulfield being quite dramatic is when he interacts with Old Spencer who is simply attempting to positively influence Holden's life in the hopes that the narrator will turn his life around(evident in chapter two). However, Holden quickly dismisses the conversation in an attempt to go elsewhere. As a result, the narrator's unwillingness to accept help only further alienates himself from society.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Mr. Rodriguez's question centralizing around farewells to Olympian; I can only hope to find myself lost in time similarly, to how Holden was and to really live in the moment. I feel as if I witness a memory similar to Holden I will feel comfortable saying goodbye, as I will always be joyful to look back at a specific memory.
In addition, the fact that Holden is in a mental ward of a hospital really concerns me with the accuracy of the novel. One huge hint I found was when the narrator stated he was a terrific liar, which makes one unable to trust what Holden is attempting to say (page 22). Essentially, I feel as if Holden cannot be trusted as a narrator because he himself is incapable of understanding he needs direction in his life.
Note: I understand Old Spencer is not a roommate, but rather Holden Coulfield's history teacher.
DeleteIn response to what Joshua had said about Holden caulfield, i cant really see the character being very dramatic. As the novel explains holden is shown to have dropped out of schools in the past. along with the character's constant negative attitude about himself and his surroundings, i can see that Holden would be a troubled kid. His history of failing academics would cause a lot of anger and criticism to come his way either from his parents or his teachers. At this point Holden has stopped listening to what people have to say about improving his grades and staying in school. It's not that i think he is acting dramatic to Old Spencer but instead that he has been in this situation too many times to care.
DeleteTo the Question about leaving Olympian; I personally will be able to say my "goodbyes" to those i have come to know. I have switched schools right in the middle of my elementary school years and had to say goodbye to a good amount of friends. Today I have lost contact with nearly all the people i knew from there. I made new friends at the new School, but again the time came to say goodbye and with the start of my middle school years i slowly lost contact with them too. the same thing happened in my transition to Highschool with my friends from middle school, but at that point i had come to a realization. personally i believe that the people you meet will come and go in your life sometime. You should always enjoy and cherish their friendship/company because the time may come for you to say goodbye and you cannot let it hurt you. With College being our next part of our life after Olympian, many will have to say goodbye to those they knew. college could take us to the nearest campus in the area to across the state, country or the world. I am prepared to say goodbye because i sort of feel adjusted to this kind of situation already. But after all the goodbyes i've had to make, i see it now as a way to remember and appreciate the time spent with my friends as i begin a new chapter in my life.
I agree with both Lilliana and Brenden about Holden expressing his feelings towards "alienation" through the criticism and judgement of other people. However, this does not mean that Holden has lost touch with reality. I like what Lilliana said about Holden's perspective being shaped by his mental disorder rather than thwarting his ability to tell the truth. If anything, this makes him more honest as he is able to see people for who they truly are (due to his habit of pointing out their worst traits), whereas others would not for the sake of being polite. His rather cynical perspective on the world also reveals how Holden draws a line between himself and "phonies". I am not sure if he is even aware of such "alienation", or if he even considers himself being in an alienated position. Rather, everyone else seems to be the alien, which is also why he may feel that he is very successful at manipulating them (hence labeling himself as the "greatest liar who could go lie for hours"). Chapters 8 through 10 exhibit such behavior to a great extent.
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 8, Holden encounters the mother of Ernie Morrow, who to him is a very stereotypical mother: "But you can't always tell- with somebody's mother, I mean. Mothers are all slightly insane..." (pg 55). Because she is so "typical", Holden feels like he can see right through her. He is bemused by the typical actions of a typical mom, and uses this to his advantage by manipulating her reactions and feelings by telling lies. Likewise in chapter 10, Holden's actions towards the three "ugly" women in the club contrasted with how he truly felt inside: "You could hardly tell which was the stupidest of the three of them" (page 73). He made it obvious how unattractive they were in all aspects, yet also saw it as another opportunity to fool or gain their attention anyways- whom of which he believed to be similar to "phonies" and "others". This is why readers may be concerned about Holden being dishonest because he seems to have a manipulative or mischievous nature. I believe however, that this is his coping mechanism towards alienation. I feel that when he sees these kinds of opportunities, he uses it to make himself feel better about his own sanity. In other words, he isn't the crazy one- others are. He feels a distinction between himself and others, whether it because of a superiority complex, general confusuon within himself, or his cynical view on the world. He does not have a certain direction in life after leaving Pencey, but is well aware that he has control over one thing: lying (or, his manipulative tendancies).
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ReplyDeleteIn response to Mr. Rodriguez’s question about isolation, it is evident that Holden tends to shy away and keeps his ideas to himself. To add on, so far from my reading, Holden doesn’t seem to have a group of friends that he is fond of or enjoys spending time around. For example, in chapter 1, Holden begins his narrative at the top of Thomsen Hill, alone watching his peers enjoy the football game of the year. Holden chooses to isolate himself because he assumes that the entire school dislikes him for the subway incident. After reflecting on himself, he later remember that he must visit his teacher. Another situation of where Holden isolates himself from society is when he lies to Mr Spencer and makes up an excuse to escape. From these two examples, I can say that Holden must have had a lot of opportunities to create or strengthen friendships but chooses to run away.
ReplyDeleteAs for the question about our goodbyes to Olympian, I would say that is too soon to say. Like Brenden, I also plan to make the most out of our senior year. Although, I do predict that saying would be difficult as I had many great experiences within the past few years.
-Jassin Reyes
Alienation is a state of being isolated from a group or activity that one initially belongs to. Holden alienated himself from Pencey Prep, which in turn lead to a number of behaviors that reflected his unstable mindset. I, for one, do not enjoy separation from human interaction; I am a very friendly, social butterfly, and loneliness is one of my biggest fears. Holden approached alienation differently: he longed for it. Largely due to his growing cynicism toward Pencey and the students within it, Holden seemed to have attempted to create as much space between him and Pencey as possible. I did not expect him to behave so peculiarly as a result of alienation, solely because he purposely put himself in that position. By “peculiarly”, I am referring to Holden wandering aimlessly around New York, carrying unconventional conversations with almost everyone he crosses paths with, and combatting the teenage conformity of the 1950’s.
ReplyDeleteHolden’s constant saunter from hotel, to bar, to club, and so on lingered throughout majority of the book and exemplified one of his ways he coped with alienation. For those who have read The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway, I see resemblance in the way both protagonists, Jake and Holden, deal with loneliness and boredom. Both characters faced awkward moments with prostitutes (Jake with Georgette and Holden with Sunny), held unfriendly conversations with old friends (Jake with Robert Cohn and Holden with Carl Luce), and drank at bars (Jake in France and Holden in Manhattan). For anyone who has read The Sun Also Rises, did you spot the similitude as well?
As I read the following responses, we can all agree that Holden does criticize and judge others through his alienation. Then again, it could possibly be conveyed as a defense mechanism in Holden's behavior due to the isolation he carries in his life from school, family, and perhaps other aspects we have yet to discover. As I was reading the book, there are many moments Holden presents his cruel and cynical thoughts towards others, such as his prep school peers Robert Ackley and old Stradlater. However, there are few moments where I observed warm and tender moments from Holden such as him speaking about his younger sister, Phoebe: "You should see her. You never saw a kid so pretty and smart in your whole life. She's really smart. I mean she had all A's ever since she started school" (Chapter 10). So although we know that Holden views the world with a cynical perspective, he still presents the love he has for some things without a single insult. It's just somewhat saddening to see this character feel this way because he is alone. His parents do not know he was kicked out of Pencey yet, so he ventures alone and copes with this by drinking alcohol and attempting to meet some older women. These are very bad habits for a teenager- especially for Holden, in this case- but with a person like him feeling like an outcast from the world, what are you supposed to do with this kind of feeling?
ReplyDeleteTo answer Mr. Rodriguez's question about us seniors saying goodbye: it is going to be very difficult letting go and saying goodbye to all of the things I have done/accomplished in high school. You get used to this routine of seeing your friends and people you know at school, going through the same joys and hardships from either classes, sports, or any other extra-curricular activities. Not only that, but we're all moving forward together from a organized environment to the independent, make your own choices society: college. We all say goodbye with different attitudes because we're different individuals. However, it will be very strenuous to choose a specific memory from high school. I'd rather reminisce in the various moments I've undergone- either good or bad- because it molded me to who I am today. In my opinion, instead of focusing on the destination (graduation and then college), I rather focus on the journey so I can enjoy the moment.
-Brandon Sanchez
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ReplyDeleteI agree with Brandon, in that it will be difficult to say "goodbye" to Olympian High School when we graduate. I'm sure that many of the new seniors can agree that we will focus on the adventures now rather than the outcome later. This is how Holden Caulfield is too; that's what makes him such a relatable character. Throughout these chapters and the entire book really, he lives in the moment. He forgets about Pencey and the idea of going home and focuses on entertaining himself for one night. To answer the second part of Mr. Rodriguez's question, I find Holden to be a bit impulsive. He gets so caught up in the emotions that he's feeling at the moment that he ends up making rash decisions that he most likely will regret later. For example, in chapter 6, Holden starts a fight with Stradlater upon his mentioning of Jane. He states, "All I know is I got up from the bed... and then I tried to sock him" (Salinger, 56). His use of the phrase "all I know" makes him seem as if he's a victim of his own actions, like he couldn't control it.
ReplyDelete-Anna Leon
After analyzing the responses of my peers, I agree with Negin that Holden acted in a way that any other teenager would. The theme of 'alienation' is apparent in the first three chapters of the book, as he was required to transfer schools because he was repeatedly kicked out. In response to the alienation Holden faces, he tends to hold in a lot of his thoughts and he does not talk to many people. I agree with Jassin Reyes that Holden does not have a big group of friends he can come to as seen in chapter one when Holden watched the football game alone on top of Thomsen Hill. I believe Holden responds to being isolated by the negativity that goes through his mind to fill the void that being isolated brought onto him. When Ackley bothers Holden as he is reading, Holden responds to one of Ackley's questions by stating, "I don't know and I don't give a damn. How 'bout sitting down or something, Ackley kid? You're right in my goddam light" (Page 28). As seen by this statement, Holden brings negativity by being unthoughtful of what he said to Ackley, which I believe he has done to try to make himself feel better about feeling like an outsider.
ReplyDeleteIn response to the question regarding how I will say goodbye to Olympian High School, I will cherish my last year as moving onto college from high school will be a difficult transition and I feel that I will miss high school once I graduate in the near future.
Lastly, I was aware that Holden was writing from a mental ward. This does change the opinion I have of Holden, as I realize that he may not always be telling the truth. Because he has a mental condition, we do not know how severe the condition may be, but since he stated his brother would drive him home the next month (Pages 3-4), he is presumably fine and his ability to express himself will not be affected.
- Brian Arlantico
After analyzing Holden Caulfield's reactions towards alienation I can agree with peers in how at times can Holden criticize the imperfections of others. This gives me the understanding that most of the time Holden handles alienation with words rather then actions. I believe Holden has a way with words in which he articulates them in ridiculing others such as Ackley calling him "Ackley kid", knowing it makes Ackley furious but, leaves Holden feeling superior using it as his strength, rather than getting himself into any physical fight. With Stradlater it also seems Holden carry's the upper hand when it comes to words but certainly not in physical shape and size.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, I can also concur with Julia in the parallels between Jake Barnes from the Sun Also Rises and Holden Caulfield, both alienated and trying to surpass it primarily through the use of alcohol. Also, I have come to notice the amount of times Holden smokes. Holden smokes wherever he wants, whenever he wants, in those times giving him the perfect depiction of a rebel. Smoking for Holden can be a stress reliever, which is very relatable to our modern day society where many adults turn to smoking to get their minds off of work or personal problems. When Holden smokes I imagine him contemplating about the universe and his very own existence. In conclusion, I believe alienation is a big theme in this book because it influences Holden as a character and influences his decisions, words, and actions.
Holden, like all of you have previously stated, is alienated and doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of society. His attitude is the opposite of what his prep school has expected of its students, which is "splendid, clear-thinking young men" (2). According to Holden, being kicked out of a school isn't new to him so he already has a record of not complying with what society wants. At the moment I believe that Holden may be suffering by a sort of mental illness, or at least people believe he has one, due to his fate in the mental ward.
ReplyDeleteUnlike Holden, when it is time to say goodbye to Olympian, I don't think I can use only a single memory. There have been many events in my time at Olympian that one memory won't cover it all. How exactly I'm going to say goodbye to this school is still a mystery to me.
~Sofia Alduenda
As one reads The Catcher in the Rye, it is apparent that the narrator, Holden Caulfield, feels a certain sense of alienation from the people he should, theoretically, feel a connection to- his family, his classmates, even other social outcasts he happens upon. Certainly, as my peers have noted, Holden tends to emphasize the negative aspects of the people in his life, adopting the persona of the jaded teenager that is so typical today. In response to this sense of alienation, Holden seemingly attempts to bridge the divide between himself and those around him- though he often goes about it in peculiar ways, which only furthers his sense of isolation.
ReplyDeleteBefore leaving Pencey, Holden continually demeans his roommate, Stradlater, whom he is seemingly isolated from, due to Stradlater being “pretty handsome”, and “a very strong guy”, in essence, one of the “athletic bastards” (chapters 4-6) that Holden resents. Despite the bitterness that seems to have resulted from this isolation, Holden continues to vie for Stradlater’s friendship, or perhaps his approval. Holden lets him borrow his new coat, complaining that Stradlater would “[stretch] it with your goddam shoulders and all” (page 25), but letting him borrow it for his date all the same. Similarly, Holden chooses to grant Stradlater’s “big favor”, and writes an essay about Allie’s baseball mitt, despite the fact that he and Stradlater were seemingly far from friends, and Stradlater was incredibly unappreciative when he returned to find the assignment complete, through no effort of his own. Holden discovers on his last night at Pencey that, no matter how hard he tries, he simply cannot connect with the people in his life.
After leaving Pencey, Holden continues his attempts to find someone he can finally feel connected to. After struggling to find someone he can call and talk to on the phone, he decides to call Faith Cavendish, a woman he was told “wasn’t exactly a whore or anything but that didn’t mind doing it once in a while”. Holden made up his mind to call her after deciding that everybody else he wanted talk to wouldn’t be able to; he figured that this woman would surely be able to talk to him, and perhaps be able to make him feel less alienated and alone. When he speaks to Faith and finds out that she does not, in fact, wish to meet him for a drink, this furthers his feeling of isolation- even a woman willing to have sex with strangers is not interested in meeting him. After realizing that he did not fit in with the world he comes from- preparatory schools and “phonies”- he is forced to recognize that he is also alienated from other social outcasts.
As Mr. Rodriguez stated, at times Holden pauses from his cynical judgment of the world around him to reflect on his experiences. In chapter 11, for example, Holden begins thinking about Jane Gallagher, whom he knew from summer vacations in Maine, and whom Stradlater had taken out earlier that night. Holden remarks “The girls I like best are the ones I never feel much like kidding”, which included Jane. As my peers and I have noted, Holden seems to act out by being extremely critical and judgmental of those around him due to the sense of alienation he feels. However, when he meets girls like Jane Gallagher, Holden seems to be able to be more genuine, removing the defense mechanism that is “kidding”, or his cynical humor. While I certainly think that the fact that Holden is admitted to a mental hospital is a significant part of the way he relates this story, I don’t believe that this fact necessarily makes Holden an unreliable narrator. After all, the way his brain works presents a world that is true for Holden, even if it may present differently for someone whose brain works differently from Holden’s (i.e. someone who is not mentally ill). This means the events that Holden regales us with are true in the world of the novel, as everything we read is in relation to Holden during a very significant time in his life.
-Riley Cruse
I agree with my peers that Holden's coping mechanism for alienation is through his cynical and judgmental attitude towards others. However, there is one thing that i would like to point out about his feeling of alienation and isolation. In his conversation with "Old Spencer" in Chapter 2, i noticed that this man was trying to help Holden not only in an academic way, but a personal way as well. Old Spencer can sense something different in Holden. For example, Old Spencer says " I'm trying to help you boy. I'm trying to help you, if i can" ( Salinger 14). Holden even admitted that Old Spencer was truly trying to help, " He really was too. You could see that" (Salinger 14). As you read on, Holden then states, " But it was that, we were too much on the opposite sides of the pole, that's all." This brings me to my point... Holden refuses to allow people into his life. Just like us teenagers, we think that sometimes we know the best for others. Holden, assuming that because he and Old Spencer are completely different people with different attitudes towards society, thinks that he cannot relate to Old Spencer or even consider his advice. This contributes to Holden's alienation because he cannot connect with people. Some may that he is antisocial, however i see it as someone who lacks trust in others. From the first three chapters, he is alienated because he cant find a solid group of people or a person that he thinks is trustworthy enough, to listen to him or to hang out with.
ReplyDeleteTo answer Mr. Rodriguez's last questions, the fact that Holden is a mentally ill/ depressed character does change my perspective on the story. My perspective has changed, in that i am more interested in his experience and see him as a more admirable character. The reason why i say that he is more admirable is because he chooses not to disassociate from this traumatic event that happened to him. Rather than ignoring this significant event in his life, he trusts us, the readers, to listen to his story. Even though Holden is mentally ill, he is extremely descriptive in his encounters with events and people.
Personally, I feel that the theme of alienation for this novel is perfect, in that us teenagers can relate to it. In our teenage years, most of us wind up feeling isolated from others. We might feel like we are not the same, or don't "fit in" with the main crowd. This is what makes Holden Caulfield such an interesting character, because we can understand his judgements of others and his feelings in certain situations.
ReplyDeleteMoving on to discuss his reactions to his alienation, I agree with the posts above that Holden responds and copes through his cynical humor. He makes harsh judgements of others and almost dismisses others' kindness towards him. In a way, it reminds me of the phrase "Hurt them before they hurt you". I feel as if Holden has developed this personality over time as a defense mechanism; in order to avoid being hurt. I am aware that Holden being sent to a mental ward is a major turning point for our perspective on his story; he may or may not be a reliable source.
-Anna Leon
Reading the first few chapters, I can really pick up how "alienation" is a significant theme in the book. Holden seems to feel out of place and explains so by pointing out differences in the form of flaws of others or explaining how he feels uncomfortable around them. This seems especially apparent in how he and Stradlater get into a fight over how Stradleter seems to be unsympathetic towards how Holden feels regarding the composition about Allie and his feeling towards Jane. After doing so, he escapes by moving over to Ackley's room, yet feels uncomfortable around him and thus escapes from that situation as well. From this, Holden seems to try to hide his difficulty of getting along with the others by holding in parts of his own thoughts as he acts uncharacteristically kind towards Ackley and Stradlater despite the way he actually thinks about them. However, we can see how he does not simply leave it at that in this case. Holden retreats from his feeling of alienation by literally escaping those specific scenarios such as leaving to Ackley's room, and quickly after deciding to leave there as well. However, while it does seem to be understandable due to how he felt out of place, it seems he also proves to be harsh and critical on his friends due to his feeling of alienation. He seems to not look at how others could possibly think or feel. For example, Ackley comes off as an unpopular and awkward teenager. However, we understand nothing of how Ackley may actually feel as we listen to all of the negativity and cynicism coming from Holden. The attitude Holden creates possibly from his feeling of alienation gives us more negative views on Stradlater and Ackley as he responds to his feeling of being out of place with a cynical and pessimistic tone.
ReplyDelete-Andrew Son
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ReplyDeleteI agree that Holden uses his judgements and cynicism as a way to cope with alienation. I feel that Holden does so, because he wants to feel justified for distancing himself from others. I noted as I was reading further that Holden thinks a lot about others in both a positive and negative way, however he does not express his judgements as often. Therefore Holden responds to situations in his mind impulsively and honestly, however responds to his encounters with others consciously and with some sense of understanding. Holden is aware, but I believe he lacks the courage to be straightforward towards other individuals in the early chapters. For example when Holden defended Stradlater when Ackley was being critical of him and calling him "conceited", mentally Holden had a lot to say about him, but he didn't say much to Ackley regarding his thoughts on Stradlater. Or perhaps even earlier when Holden limited his response after Mr. Spencer was very critical of him and his academic performance, and when he felt offended from some of the remarks Mr. Spencer said about him and it being too late to be concerned about his future.
ReplyDeleteRegarding saying goodbye, I am in agreement with Sofia. I don't think I can gather a single memory to sum up my experience at Olympian, at least not yet. Senior year still lies ahead and I have already experienced some amazing moments over the course of three years at Olympian. For me to "say goodbye" does not necessarily mean to recall a moment in time where I was the most happiest or successful. For me to say "good bye" means to be aware that you did everything possible to make the best of your opportunity. It also means that you are ready to move on to the next destination in the journey, having acquired more experience and knowledge from the last one.
-Cassandra Hernandez
All of us have felt alienated from a group of people, a place, a certain activity or something at least once in our life. After reading the responses from my peers, I agree with them that Holden expresses his feelings towards “alienation” through the criticism and judgement of other people. The narrator makes harsh comments regarding his peers, teachers, and family regarding their actions and appearances. Holden’s mindset at times could be seen as very confusing, because his thoughts would wander and his opinion on something would almost always change. He was always concerned about the little things, such as where do ducks go when winter approaches, or when a swear word is scribbled on a wall. He seemed to be deeply distressed about these things and would try to get an answer or fix them in some way. Holden attempted to find coping methods for his feelings of alienation and went as far to invite the taxi driver to come and hangout with him. Even though his driver was a complete stranger I feel as if Holden did it because he did it as a shield to escape his own reality.
ReplyDeleteIn response to the question about having to say goodbye to Olympian, I won't know how to say “goodbye” to Olympian at least not yet anyway. I don’t know what my last high school year has to hold for me but I know that my goal is to make it the most memorable year yet. Its going to be a big transition from high school to college. My best friends and I will all be splitting up and going to different schools. No matter how excited I may be for this new beginning it will be a challenge to let go of all the memories I've made while attending Olympian.
-Alyssa Ariza
I feel that the alienation that Holden goes through within the text is the driving force for him to make relationships with people he may not necessarily like. While reading, I found that the types of relationships that Holden makes with random adults and boys from Pencey that he has clearly proven dislike towards, are all in response to this sense of alienation that he cannot find escape from. I can shed some sympathy towards the protagonist due to the fact that he has no real friends, and continues to make relationships in the oddest of places, with people that he simply can't relate to, all in the hopes of not feeling alone. It's quite likely that Holden continues to flunk out of different prep schools because he just wants to return home, to a place where he feels wanted, at least by his sister anyway, and where he thinks he can be himself, not the self he believes would have a better chance of making friends.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I do want to address Holden's few recollections of happy memories at his schools. I think that the happy memories allow Holden to leave Pencey (and other schools before Pencey) so easily, having the mentality that at least he had one good experience at the school he was at, and a feeling of no regret.
-Savannah Mojica
One can tell from reading the bit about Holden and a couple of other guys playing football that Holden feels deeply about saying good-bye despite the harsh nature he displays to most people. There are times throughout the story that we see a glimmer of heart and genuine feelings from Holden, like when he wrote about his late brother’s baseball glove. It showed vulnerability. Perhaps to mask his vulnerability and to reinforce his alienation from those around him Holden portrays such a negative and disturbing outlook on life that eventually interrupts his mental state needs to be treated in a mental institution.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden feels alienated he lashes out and does irrational things. When he is told that he couldn’t do anything right by his roommate Stradlater he rips up the paper about his brother’s baseball mitt (that clearly meant a lot to him) and proceeds to provoke and engage in a bloody scrap with Stradlater. He didn’t need to do any of those things yet he threw a tantrum like a child. When Holden feels alienated by “phony” classmates and teachers he refuses to engage in school work which leads to him getting kicked out of Pencey and other prep schools. He can be very stubborn. Maybe someone as emotionally damaged as Holden just does irrational things like excessive lying and getting into fights in order to feel something, anything, that takes his mind off his own inner conflict.
Good-bye’s are always a little bittersweet. Olympian has given us many things, but we’ll be off to even bigger and better things.
On the account of Holden reciting the story in a mentally-ill state, I don’t think Holden is a very reliable narrator. Mentally-ill people are not right in the mind sometimes. So, I don’t believe that Holden really means everything he says in the story, and I don’t believe he has the one-hundred percent clarity of a reliable narrator. Salinger clearly must have drawn from his experience in order to develop Holden authentically as a psychiatric patient.
-Abegail Caraulia
As stated above by my classmates, Holden is alienated from his peers, family, and teachers. Despite this, I do not believe that he is a shy person, as stipulated by Jassin Reyes. Throughout A Catcher in the Rye, Holden is eager to express his opinions and sentiments, and speaks his mind even to total strangers. Instead of being driven by loneliness to create a space for himself within the confusing world he lives in, he chooses solitude because he feels that no one else thinks the way he does, or interprets the world in a way similar to him. He judges and criticizes others for this, when in reality, he simply does not relate with their perspectives. However, I personally can understand that even within the presence of others, it is easy to feel alienated or alone especially when one feels that they do not fit into the world around them. Even though he doesn’t enjoy this feeling of alienation, he does not do much to improve the situation for himself. Yes, Holden has been kicked out of multiple schools, but this was largely his own fault. Yes, he does not have many friends, but he does not try to engage in meaningful relationships either. Holden recognizes that he is unlike his peers, and that his thoughts are at times hard for other people to fully understand. I found that the following quote was noteworthy on the subject of alienation” “Sometimes I act a lot older than I am–I really do–but people never notice it. People never notice anything.” (pg. 12 par 1). Holden believes that people only notice things that are not truly important, like the things he does wrong. Accordingly, his good characteristics remain unnoticed.
ReplyDeleteThroughout A Catcher in the Rye, I wondered to whom this novel was addressed and from where and when it was written. Holden’s mental deficits are apparent within the beginning of the novel, but I did not catch that he was writing from a mental hospital. Upon reflection, this now makes sense to me, and gives context to the story. Unlike Holden, leaving behind the familiarity of Olympian High school will be difficult for me. Not seeing the people we have acquainted ourselves with and changing the routine we’ve all grown used to during these last four years will be no easy task. Life after high school is daunting and new, and it requires us to put forth an entirely different version of ourselves. While the unknown is frightening, it is also exciting, and for this reason, senior year will be both memorable and challenging.
- Zuri Smith
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ReplyDeleteAs I go over my peer's responses towards the way Holden copes with his "alienation", I have to say I certainly agree due to how interesting Holden is as an overall character. It is clearly shown throughout his actions and speech that he likes to isolate himself from friends, family, and even from himself. For example, at the last paragraph on page 4, he states, "Anyway, it was the Saturday of the football game. […] I remember around three o'clock that afternoon I was standing way the hell up on top of Thomsen Hill. […] You could see the whole field from there, and you could see the two teams bashing each other all over the place. […] You could hear them all yelling." The passage shows evidence to his "alienation" because it indicates that Holden is avoiding people as opposed to talking and connecting with them. With that being said, I noticed he likes to often mention death, suicide, and depression which makes a clear connection as to what Mr. Rodriguez said in which Holden retells his story at a mental ward.
ReplyDeleteThroughout The Catcher in the Rye, I have gotten a feel as to why Holden Caulfield is inconsiderate, narrow-minded, and harsh. With all the negative events that has occurred in his life, this may be the reason why he is like that as a person. I read a peer's response named Anna Leon on how Holden uses defensive mechanism as a way to not get hurt and I completely agree with that statement, shown within his use of language and actions.
With Holden obviously being in a mental ward, it has changed my point of view and even caused me to have doubts whether the retelling of his stories are accurate or not. Though I am only a transfer student and didn't experience all 4 years in Olympian High School, I know I'll still have somewhat a sad final goodbye because I have met amazing faculty and friends throughout my 4 months of attending at this school. I do not like focusing on the future too much because I get very anxious, but I am excited as to what senior year will have in store for me.
-Danica Bordallo
It is without a doubt that Holden isolates himself constantly every opportunity he can get. From the start of the book in Chapter one when he choses purposely to not go to the rivalry football game and stay in his dorm. This same attitude is apparent is chapter 6 when stadlater comes back from his date with that girl Jane he states, "Where the hell is everybody? Its like a goddam mourge in here."(Chapter 6,Pg.46). Old Stradlater is merely describing the atmosphere on a late Saturday night coming back late after a date he had. My point is instead of going out with a date or with friends or merely going out to enjoy himself, Holden decides to stay inside and isolate himself and write a report for Stradlater. Holden's 'lazy work ethic' also does not help either. It is like if one does not have the drive to do something, then that person will attempt to get out of it, or will do it with a lousy demeanor. This applies to Holden in the sense that he does not care for these fancy prep schools he keeps going to, and that is because he merely does not fit it. Holden no care attitude leads himself down the path of isolation, which I believe he coupes with by judging and constantly criticizing others. In order to make himself feel at ease he puts others down to lift himself up. This is seen on page 70, "I spent a whole night with a terribe phony named /anne Louise Sherman" (Chapter, 9). His bad mouthing of this girl he described to us further more explains how he shies away from friendships. It may seem that Holden is actually looking for isolation, and after reading more it is evident that he somewhat enjoys it. I think he hardly has any friends because he think he is better than everyone else.
ReplyDeleteAddressing Mr. Rodriguez's question "How will we say goodbye to Olympian". In actuality, I predict it will also be very hard to say goodbye to OHS. Being involved heavily in activities, sports, clubs, ASB etc. Unlike Holden's hatred toward his school and his companions, I enjoy school very much so and it will be difficult to say goodbye to so many people I have made great memories with. I plan to make this year the most memorable out of my four years at OHS and I am very excited for my last year.
-Dennis O'Brien (DJ)
I agree with DJ in that Holden isolates himself at every opportunity presented. It is seen throughout the entire novel; not just the first three chapters. After re-reading the first three chapters, I noticed that Holden almost purposely seperated himself from others. At the end of the second chapter, Spencer attempts to show Holden that if he continues on the path he's going on, he won't have a future to look forward to (page 21). Instead of just sitting next to him and pretending to listen, Holden gets up and says he has to leave. At the end of chapter one, Holden also reacts negatively when Spencer wishes him luck. What I'm trying to say is, overall Holden chooses to look at the dark side of things, and even disregards other people's kindness towards him. It seems that what he complains about the most (isolation) is what he actually does to himself.
ReplyDelete-Anna Leon
Throughout "The Catcher in the Rye" Holden Caulfield alienates himself from everyone and the world because he feels as though he does not fit into the expectations of society. Holden is faced with denial and rejection and upon recognition of this isolation, he seeks to become more integrated. This is a common response as it is human nature to have a support system around you and to interact with other personality types. Alienation both protects and harms Holden. It protects him as it ensures that he will remain true to himself as he does not have much outside influence on his character. This contributes to his unique and rebellious personality. On the other hand, the alienation Holden subjects himself to drives him into a state of loneliness and depression.
ReplyDeleteI believe Holden alienates himself in order to avoid the pain that people may cause that he felt when Allie died. Most teens go through an emotional rollercoaster, but this occurrence gives a negative outlook on life and it proves that life really is not fair, providing an explanation for Holden's fascination and lingering in childhood affairs. Holden openly expresses this in the identity he finds in his red hunting hat. Wearing it backward is an act of defiance and independence and it provides a shelter from the world.
Despite the fact that Holden is recounting the story from a mental facility, I find him to be a credible source. He used to be a habitual liar as seen by the made-up stories he tells and the manipulation he imposes on people. Although his openness in narrating these moments and addressing the lies shows growth and builds trust between the reader and the author.
I believe that Holden's alienation spurs from his expression of the unconventional thoughts and views that he has of the world around him. He feels that nobody shares the same ideas or interpretations as him, and that is why I think he withdraws into solitude. Not because he doesn't want to connect, but because he is simply unable to. He has held many conversations with complete strangers, most of which end in disappointment for Holden. For example, his one-sided conversation with Bernice (the blonde woman from the Lavender Room) in chapter 10 exemplifies how Holden looks to engage in a stimulating conversation, but was just unable to make that connection. Naturally, Holden responds with sarcastic remarks, such as, “‘You’re a very good conversationalist,’ I told her. ‘You know that?’” (Salinger 94). I think that this particular interaction is a good representative of the point I am trying to reach. Holden tries to make connections with people, but fails to do so, resulting in him giving up and reverting back to his cynicism and sarcasm. Holden then puts up his “wall” of judgmental remarks, as a sort of defense mechanism, as previously described by Anna Leon. When I first began to read The Catcher in the Rye, I was not completely aware that Holden was in a mental ward. I had my suspicions that he may have been talking to someone else and not directly to the readers. Now that I know Holden has a mental disorder, my point of view on the book has not changed, but I now have a clearer sense of why he acts the way he does.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to Mr. Rodriguez’s question about a “good bye” to Olympian High, I think that it will be hard, yet exciting, to move on and take the next step in life. I agree with Holden and many of peers in that I too must feel a sense of closure before leaving. I have moved around quite a lot. I have attended 6 different schools in my life, and each time I felt the need to have a proper good bye, which usually involves some kind of remembrance of a special moment from that school.
With Holdens' aggressive attitude in mind, I find him to be one of the most passive aggressive authors I have encountered. He deals with this alienation in his head as he, in actuality, does not have many to express how he feels to. Holden places himself above others, Ackley especially, despite the fact that he hypocritically acts just as Ackley does when accompanying Stradlater, someone higher up on the imaginary highschool caste system.
ReplyDeleteI would also like to call attention to the passage on pages 4-5 in which Mr. Rodriguez pointed out. Remembering the good in the worst of situations are what make them seem bearable, and I find sympathy in realizing that this is what Holden has been going through throughout the entirety of his high school career. Rather than maintaining that feeling of comfortability with the group that one resides with usually in freshman year then throughout high school, he is forced to succumb to people like Ackley who he internally can not stand.
I can contend to Savannahs' remark about Holden coping through making good memories in order to get over leaving the prep schools that he has left in the past because I can particularly relate to doing so to get over leaving Olympian, yet I now question Holdens' place as a reliable narrator because of his position in a psychiatric ward. Despite his knowledge of everything, there is always the possibility of flawed information; however, there has not been any sign of his goal to be for sympathy.
Yes, we have all certainly felt alienated from something at one point in our lives but, Holden reacts in a strange way. First, I think that Holden has brought this feeling of isolation upon himself. While he was still at Pencey, it seemed that he did not want to have any friends. For example, he talked about how Ackley was annoying and how he did not like to be around him. This shows that Holden isolates himself away from people. I think that this is because he thinks too highly of himself, he has such a strong sense of pride. Meaning, he acts like he is too good for everyone else. This also shows that his peers do not alienate Holden, Holden alienates himself from his peers. This is why I thought that his reaction to alienation was a strange one, instead of trying to make friends, Holden does the exact opposite. On a separate note, Holden has a habit of criticizing people throughout the novel. He makes rude comments about every single character in the story. This is also a contributing factor to his loneliness. He finds flaws in other people, but fails to find flaws in himself. In response to saying goodbye to Olympian next year, I do believe that it will be difficult to accept, but we have to realize that it is a part of growing up. After high school, we will have the liberty to make our own decisions and to be more independent.
ReplyDeleteIn response to realizing that Holden was mentally ill, I believe that it does change my perspective on the story. However, I do believe that he had enough clarity to write about the truthful events. On the other hand, these circumstances may have prevented him from expressing himself in a less cynical and more optimistic way. While it can prevent him from writing in complete sincerity, it allows the readers to be able to fully understand the narrator’s thoughts and actions.
-Daniela Navarro
Alienation can easily be seen throughout The Catcher in the Rye, Holden constantly repeats of how lonely and depressed he is. However, through his numerous failed attempts he does not break away from these emotions. He engages in conversations with complete strangers while staying in New York. Holden initiates a conversation with his cab driver while en route to Edmont, he questions where the ducks in the lagoon near Central Park go once winter approaches. The cab driver was not fascinated with the question simply because he did not know the answer (Salinger 68). Holden ended the conversation and did not try to continue it. He easily gives up on situations he does not like or enjoy. Holden uses alienation as a protective barrier as discussed by my peers. I believe the way he feels is solely his fault, he does not make much effort to engage himself in difficult situations because he is so quick to critique and judge the people around him. He simply does not understand or even attempt to see situations through another person's perspective. I question if in the future chapters will the readers finally have a glimpse of Holden meeting someone he can relate to and have a meaningful relationship/friendship with them.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Mr. Rodriguez's question about a good bye to Olympian High, I believe it will be difficult leaving the people I became so close to throughout high school. I chose to attend school here because I wanted to be surrounded by new and diverse students. Its been a great and memorable three years and I am very happy I chose to go here. I am looking forward to what senior year has in store for me and my peers as we transition from high school to college.
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ReplyDeleteThe theme of alienation throughout the novel is evident through Holden’s constant attempts to gain attention from those around him. He repeats the phrase, “Sometimes I horse around a lot, just to keep from getting bored” (Chapter 3, Pg.21). His random outbursts of immature and obnoxious behavior display his feelings of loneliness and rejection. He extends the barrier between himself and the reader by justifying his behavior with boredom. However, his actions imply that he longs for attention and inclusion.
ReplyDeleteI agree with my peers that Holden copes with his alienation through the harsh judgement of others. However, it is quite depressing that he portrays Ackley as a disgusting, idiotic brute. Ackley is similar to Holden in that he resides in his dorm during the big football game and is also engulfed by his pessimistic attitude. Holden fails to recognize that he judges Ackley in a similar manner to how Ackley judges Stradlater. In my opinion, there is a character foil between Holden and Ackley. However, like Riley Cruse mentioned, Holden furthers his sense of isolation by refusing to associate himself with a possibly, relatable person.
On the topic of saying goodbye to Olympian, similarly to Holden and some of my peers, I need a sense of closure in order to move on from a place that basically dominated my life for the past four years. Like Holden, I will hold onto a positive memory in order to move on to new and exciting things.
-Lizeth Estrada
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ReplyDeleteHolden feels alienated from the world around him, and I noticed a few things that show this. As he first tells the story, he recollects himself at a football game. Now, most teenagers at football games are usually having a good time with their friends and other spectators, but Holden was at the top of a hill watching the game by himself. "I remember around three o'clock that afternoon, I was standing way the hell up on top of Thomsen Hill." Holden has felt alienated for most of his life, so he automatically turns to isolation to cope with his realization. As he stands alone on top of the hill, Holden explains that he left all the fencing equipment on the subway, and proclaims that, "The whole team ostracized me the whole way back on the train." This is another example of Holden being the outsider.
ReplyDeleteI was taken by surprise how Holden's attitude changed as he reflected about something so simple as tossing a football around with a couple of other guys. Although it's Holden's personality to be cynical towards just about everything, he still wants to hold onto a few good memories so he feels like he was actually at Pencey, making his good-bye process a better one.
After realizing that Holden was put into a mental hospital after these events, I do feel sorry for him. I can definitely see why the first paragraph of the book showed him as stubborn, ignorant, and cynical. I thought that was just the way he was, but knowing the fact that he got put into a hospital, I see him as a different person now.
As for me being a senior next year, I want to just get the good-bye process over with and try not to reflect too much about my years in high school. I do not need specific memories to feel validated about things that are gone and in the past. I believe that if you make an effort to enjoy your time in high school, leaving will be easy and not full of regret.
-Justin Bleisch
Ana Paola Hernandez
ReplyDeleteI definitely see the concept of alienation in this novel, particularly with the way Holden behaves around people. As Justin mentioned earlier, the main character always appears to be someone everyone else pick points as an outsider. Even being a manager of Pencey's fencing team, has made him feel like the team and even the school sees him as a submissive individual. The incident with leaving the fencing equipment in the subway is an example of one of the situations in which Holden feels pressured by external factors (like other young men), to be no more than an outsider, and a teenager who simply does not fall under the normal characteristics of a high school boy.
Now, the way he reacts towards this judgement from those around him, allows for the reader to see that his thoughts actually are sort of different and strange, but are in all honesty the way a normal teenager would be portrayed today. Even though in the time period Holden is living, teenagers are expected to act different from him, and sort of uniform, in fact no one seems to rebel as much as Holden; however, I find it quite interesting how his thoughts, reflected through this rebellious actions, demonstrate how he is actually willing to be different, even though most kids his age feel just the same as him. The difference with Holden is that he presents his rebellious ideas rather than hold them in like those around him.
In other words, I believe he is different not in the sense that he is a rebel, when no one around him is; but the fact that a lot of teenagers around his time may feel it is hard to conform to the society around as well, but still choose to do so, when Holden does not. Holden refuses to conform to the typical teenager persona, and many others may feel just like him, but he is the only one who gives off these feelings with his actions.
Even though this character seemed very cynical and selfish to me when I first started the novel, I can say now my perspective on Holden has changed, seeing him open up about people like his brother Allie. In chapter 5, we see the first time Holden goes into detail about Allie, as he states, "He got leukemia, and died when we were up in Maine...He was terrifically intelligent... God he was a nice kid though."(pg.43-44) As Holden continues about his brother who passed away, I can see he isn't all cynical and selfish, he is more than that, and he cares, like he cared for his brother more than I would have thought. Even though he makes very judgmental comments about others around him, there is still a side to Holden that cares for people and makes him miss others like his brother, so much that he finds himself confused now and in alienation, to the rest of the world.
With this, I can say that the fact he is telling the story, being in a hospital and in therapy, he has come to reflect on all that has happened to him. In the beginning I might have believed he is not a reliable narrator based on my prejudgements of his comments and actions, but now I can say I think Holden is actually one individual to trust because he has proved he is willing to disobey his society's norms and be open about his thoughts, simply because that is really how he feels, and unlike others he will not fake his true emotions to us, his listeners.
Personally, as a student approaching my senior year, I can definitely say that yes I will be able to say goodbye to Olympian, if I make the best out of my last year, and not regret the memories. I do not think I will approach the end of this last year with cynicism, but rather I will make sure I do what I think is best, even if it means not conforming to the typical senior etiquette. It is with a positive, hard working, and perseverant as well as fun attitude, that I think my goodbye to Olympian will consist of a positive memory of all my high school moments.
Considering Holden’s rebellious nature, I believe that he is emotionally distraught and enclosed with a sense of alienation and loneliness. It makes sense that Holden feels alone at Pencey Prep, considering how he constantly ridicules all the boys for being preppy, for being conceited, or for being different in any way that doesn’t please him. To cope with and mask his feelings of alienation, Holden lies constantly and pushes away everyone around him by judging them or ridiculing them, which is very ironic. In fact, he decided to leave Pencey Prep earlier than anticipated because hanging around made him “too sad and lonesome”. He doesn’t seem to have a supportive or stable relationship with anyone. Many students have said that his constant lying makes him an unreliable narrator and I agree with that. He lies to those around him and surely could be lying to the reader. It seems like he is trying to imagine or create a better world for himself.
ReplyDeleteI am convinced that Holden is emotionally or mentally scarred by something that has occurred to him, considering the fact that he is narrating the story from the mental ward of a hospital. As the story unfolds, more is understood about Holden’s history. For example, it was revealed that his brother died of leukemia. That incident plus something that yet is to be revealed to the reader has embedded harrowing thoughts into Holden’s mind that has left him with feelings of isolation and possible depression.
I think that Holden thinks he is too good for everyone around him, especially at Pencey Prep, with the exception of Jane. It doesn’t seem like physical attraction considering that Holden noticed the little things about her, such as how she wouldn’t move any of her kings when playing chess. It also leads me to believe that it was not merely physical attraction since he was so bothered by the fact that Stradlater may have had sexual intercourse with her. It makes me wonder, why is she so important to Holden? Will she be mentioned again throughout the story?
I strongly approve of the theme for Catcher in the Rye as "alienation" because of Holden's social life at Pencey. Holden describes his peers in a very dismissive and cynical way. For example, Holden's isolation from the dark social life at Pencey comes from pg. 23 when he is sickened about Ackley and that has caused tension around another peer of Holden's, Stradlater. Holden then states that Ackley has "a terrible personality" and on top of that "He was also sort of a nasty guy." Ackley's terrible personality was most likely the cause of the tension between him and Stradlater because Ackley "hated Stradlater's guts" which clearly shows that most of his peers do not get along. Nobody would want to be put in a dormitory at a prep school with students who show such unstable relationships. I agree with Brenden that Holden is trying to mask his loneliness since he has to try to make an effort to fit in with the seniors even if Holden strongly disliked this. By seeking Holden's perspective, he tends to make judgmental connotations about his surroundings which makes this seems as if Holden is easily annoyed. I hope that as the story progresses, Holden truly finds who he really is growing as a teenager in deep isolation.
ReplyDeleteFor the response about saying "goodbye" to Olympian, everyone would want to end high school on a good note with their friends. In this book, the prep schools show a deep meaning about the darkness gradually increasing behind the atmosphere. Furthermore, I would not want to see myself in a negative perspective like Holden's because he constantly deals with a critical pathway. As teenagers struggle to find themselves they will soon find who they really are through the idea of maturity.
I strongly approve of the theme for Catcher in the Rye as "alienation" because of Holden's social life at Pencey. Holden describes his peers in a very dismissive and cynical way. For example, Holden's isolation from the dark social life at Pencey comes from pg. 23 when he is sickened about Ackley and that has caused tension around another peer of Holden's, Stradlater. Holden then states that Ackley has "a terrible personality" and on top of that "He was also sort of a nasty guy." Ackley's terrible personality was most likely the cause of the tension between him and Stradlater because Ackley "hated Stradlater's guts" which clearly shows that most of his peers do not get along. Nobody would want to be put in a dormitory at a prep school with students who show such unstable relationships. I agree with Brenden that Holden is trying to mask his loneliness since he has to try to make an effort to fit in with the seniors even if Holden strongly disliked this. By seeking Holden's perspective, he tends to make judgmental connotations about his surroundings which makes this seems as if Holden is easily annoyed. I hope that as the story progresses, Holden truly finds who he really is growing as a teenager in deep isolation.
ReplyDeleteFor the response about saying "goodbye" to Olympian, everyone would want to end high school on a good note with their friends. In this book, the prep schools show a deep meaning about the darkness gradually increasing behind the atmosphere. Furthermore, I would not want to see myself in a negative perspective like Holden's because he constantly deals with a critical pathway. As teenagers struggle to find themselves they will soon find who they really are through the idea of maturity.
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ReplyDeleteI very much agree with my peers that Holden responds to alienation with cynicism. I think thats how most of us respond to rejection. I know I do.
ReplyDeleteI think that his alienation mostly stems from him being stuck in the wrong time period. He is clearly frustrated with the conformity, social norms, and intense politeness imposed on his generation. Holden's frustration is clear during his altercation with Stradlater, "That's the trouble with all you morons. You never want to discuss anything. That's the way you can always tell a moron. They never want to discuss anything intellig-"(pg58). I think this is one of the main reasons he calls everyone phonies. Holden desperately aches to be surrounded by other people that are like him; people who speak honestly and can tolerate Holden's stream of consciousness style of conversation.
Do you think Holden would feel less alienated if he went to school with us? or do you think he'd be just as cynical?
-Andrea Ramirez
I very much agree with my peers that Holden responds to alienation with cynicism. I think thats how most of us respond to rejection. I know I do.
ReplyDeleteI think that his alienation mostly stems from him being stuck in the wrong time period. He is clearly frustrated with the conformity, social norms, and intense politeness imposed on his generation. Holden's frustration is clear during his altercation with Stradlater, "That's the trouble with all you morons. You never want to discuss anything. That's the way you can always tell a moron. They never want to discuss anything intellig-"(pg58). I think this is one of the main reasons he calls everyone phonies. Holden desperately aches to be surrounded by other people that are like him; people who speak honestly and can tolerate Holden's stream of consciousness style of conversation.
Do you think Holden would feel less alienated if he went to school with us? or do you think he'd be just as cynical?
-Andrea Ramirez
The sole purpose of books in the past were intended to reflect on current historical events and that is exactly what Catcher in the Rye does. Around the 1950s conformity and conservatism was common, because the Americans felt it was more safe in a time of war and depression. The alienation that Holden felt represents a minority of individuals who are mentally depraved and different from others in society. He developed a cynical personality as a result of the unfortunate events in his past life. He learned to run away from his problems instead of approaching them. Salinger expresses the idea that not everyone can always be happy. This alienation is felt in teenagers today, so Holden represents the majority of modern day American teenagers now.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Holden has a mental disorder should not affect the trust that a reader has towards the narrator. I believe that the work of literature centers mainly around Holden's character and personality rather than the settings and events of the story. Even if Holden lies about where he is and what he experienced, readers can have a sense about the way Holden feels and reacts to certain situations real or fake.
When I leave high school, I would not want to abandon everything the same way Holden would. Despite having to leave high school with unfortunate memories and failures, I do not feel the need to act in the bitter way that Holden does.
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ReplyDeleteAs many of my peers have already asserted, the protagonist, Holden makes the choice to alienate himself from the people around him and continues to refuse any form of help.This could be seen very early in the novel when he drops by Old Spencer's home to say goodbye.Their conversation results in them speaking of Holden's infamous school record, including his failure of almost all his classes. Holden soon becomes irritable of Old Spencer leading to his rush to leave. This is seen when he states,"'Look, sir. Don't worry about me,'I said.'I mean it. I'll be all right. I'm just going through a phase right now. Everybody goes through phases and all, don't they?'" (Salinger 18) I wonder if Holden's refusal to help is connected to his pride. For me, personally, when Holden continues to look down on other people calling them names like "bastards" or "phonies" I feel that it is his own way of saying that they are not like him. I agree with previous points made by my peers in which they acknowledge Holden's recognition of his own faults and failures yet his inability to go out and make changes for himself.
ReplyDeleteUltimately, everyone has their own ways of saying goodbyes and accepting new beginnings. There are many times where I do believe that sometimes the world can be a place where people seemingly have their own agendas for themselves. At the same time, I want to remember and trust that any experiences that I have had has shaped me to the person I am today. I consider myself to be very sentimental and someone who has difficulty letting go of the past.
I realized quite early on in the novel that Holden was currently in a mental hospital and is reminiscing on the experiences that have brought him to his stay. It could also be seen in his tendency to become easily angered by the people around him and his evident hatred for the world. While some people may argue that Holden is untrustworthy because he is in a mental hospital, I believe that he reveals some brutally honest truth that other people may fear to say aloud.
A great number of my fellow classmates have reached a similar conclusion to that of my own regarding Holden Caulfield's behavior concerning preferred coping mechanisms in response to adversity or alienation. It is restated throughout the novel that despite a strong grade point average, the protagonist views himself as superior to his peers in what is known as "street smarts". Over and over again, we see evidence of the main characters harsh criticism of popular culture, especially theater and cinema. In these instances he refers to them as "phony" and "snobby", indicating that people often conduct themselves in somewhat of a false manner as a means of attempting to impress others around them. We also see evidence of similar characteristics in both his older brother D.B. and younger sister Phoebe in their appreciation of alike music, clothing, and literature. It is for this reason that I think Holden is only able to truly share some commonality with his siblings and resorts to shutting everyone else out who cannot see the world from his own perspective. Rather than succumbing to the ideals which he so strongly opposes and pretend to act as though he has some interest in activities which the majority of supporting characters in the book enjoy, he proceeds to simply "walk away" from that which and those whom he deems "phony". As a result, the main character essentially isolates himself from persons not of the same mentality in an effort to avoid sacrificing his unique character and becoming a part of what he sees as a detrimental mass media.
ReplyDelete-Quentin Cruz-Boyer
The thing that makes Holden such a cynic is his isolation from others he chooses to, due to lack of true personal connections to others, look at the world and others in a bad way. So Holden because of his isolation chooses to make it worse for himself by progressively pushing others out of his life who are there to help him such as Mr. Spencer. Although he tries to make some connections such as that with Mr. Spencer he seems to see the worst features of a person such as when he describes Mr. Spencer’s appearance. He also does not accept the help of Mr. Spencer who was trying to help Holden get on a path to possibly succeed in the future but rather than listen to Mr. Spencer Holden decides to make an excuse so that he could leave.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to how I will say goodbye to Olympian next year although it has been an enjoyable 3 years so far and will most likely be 4 next year I have no real connection to the school outside of it being a school. So that is why next year once the last couple of days come in I will be excited to be able to move onto college but will not have any emotional attachments to the school that I will need to sever. I believe that this is due to me being like Holden as a cynic but worse in that I will not have those connections that he had with Pencey and the people there.
I did as some of the other students find that Holden is in a mental institute and knowing this it shows that Holden may be altering the story because of his mental problems. Holden could possibly be adding his personal thoughts into his memories of what occurred which could account for the excerpts of his thoughts and his cynicism towards these people. I do not believe that Holden can truly be trusted in his telling of the story because of his illness and his interest in lying to others “I’m the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life.” which makes him hard to trust for an unaltered story.
-Cristian Hernandez
Yes, we all agree that Holden feels alienated throughout the story, the way he acts and what he does in my view, is that he thinks freely and does whatever he wants to conflict with his feeling of being alienated. For example, in chapter 7, Holden begins to create a conflict with Stradlater, constantly insulting him and eventually he took it so far that Stradlater started to beat him, but Holden didn't care. Even after he was beaten, he still continued insulting Stradlater like saying to wash his own moron face while Holden was bleeding pretty badly. In addition, in Chapter 8, Holden met the mother of Ernest Morrow, who Holden described as "the biggest bastard that ever went to Pencey". Throughout this conversation, Holden tells her that his name is Rudolf Schmidt, the name of the janitor in his dorm. He kept telling her throughout the conversation about events that Ernest like how he participated in class elections, how he was popular around the school, changing Mrs. Morrow's whole view on Ernest. Holden sure is alienated but he has his ways of throwing his own fun in there.
ReplyDeleteAs far as this year being my last year in high school, I plan on making it my most memorable and most successful by continuing to try hard in my classes and being able to equally balance both my school work and social life. I would like to continue making more friends this year and get closer and closer to people before I graduate. I am prepared for the stress and the academic pressure, but I know that it is needed to prepare myself for college.
- Ryan Dasmarinas
It is evident that Holden prefers to be alienated. We can see that his alienation is his way of showing that he does not need anyone. He has a pretty high ego looking down on everyone. He wasn't too upset about getting kicked out of another school becoming even more isolated from his peers and his social environment. Which I certainly could not live without. It seems to be that anyone he interacts with, he is confused about how he feels about them because he feels like he does not belong. He just pulls himself away for the sake of escaping the troubles and pain that other people might potentially give him. I can see the theme of alienation clearly, especially in this quote from chapter 16, "Everybody was all dressed up, because it was Sunday, and that made it worse. But the worst part was that you could tell they all wanted to go to the movies. I couldn't stand looking at them". It is shown that Holden just views himself as higher than everyone else. Readers can observe that his alienation is most likely a big factor of his negativity. He does not seem to even try to be with people his own age and does not try to take the time to bond with others. He just gets annoyed of society.
ReplyDeleteResponding to Holden's mental illness, I believe that it is to be post traumatic stress disorder OR just being a very troubled adolescent. This is evident from the situations or experiences that he has been in. He has suffered from his brothers death and talks intensely about how one of his best friends' has committed suicide. His parents have failed to take care of their troubled son and Holden has failed to make his transition from a boy to a man. He could not accept the pain that the real world is giving him in order to prepare and mature.
-Maya Ruane
The idiosyncrasy of his alienation is somewhat strange to me, most especially when a girl is involved. When Holden is lonely and begins talking to a girl, he initially views them as intelligent or in any positive light. But the instant that girl takes a liking to him, he immediately takes it back, as evidenced by his encounter with Bernice Krebs in chapter 10. He even refers to Sally Hayes as intelligent but stupid, solely based on the fact that she is going on a date with him. Mature adult interactions, which most especially include sexual ones make Holden anxious. He is still a child and doing something so adult-like is something new to him.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to leaving Olympian, I have yet to decide how I will formally leave my farewell with the school.
After reading multiple posts written by my peers, I can agree that Holden definitely reacts to alienation with cynicism. I noticed that in the first few chapters of the novel, he describes every one of his peers, even his teacher Mr. Spencer, in a negative light. Although Holden has moments where he describes his peers in a way that makes them appear "alright" or "not that bad," the majority of his judgments are negative. For example, the character of Stradlater would be seen positively by most. He is described as attractive and athletic, however, Holden manages to find something negative about him, which is that he subtly has poor hygiene and shaves with a dirty razor. I believe that Holden alienates himself due to not being able to relate to many of his peers, and therefore, reacts with cynicism. I also believe that some of his cynical behavior may stem from his younger brother Allie's death. Perhaps his brother's death caused PTSD for Holden as World War 2 caused PTSD for Salinger and Salinger is reflecting his experiences through Holden's character. Regarding the question asking how I will say "goodbye" to Olympian, I'm not quite sure how I will do that yet. I hope I will discover how to do so during this upcoming year.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of my peers in the fact that, for most of the book, it is not hard to see that Holden is a cynical character and he mostly alienates himself from other people because he finds it hard to trust them, the way that he talks about other people, especially his roommates, for example, every time Ackley went in his dorm, he always tried to pretend like he was busy in order to avoid any type of conversation with him, and the way he talks of the girls he goes out to dates with shows that he doesn't get attached to other people easily.
ReplyDeleteI think that when he was talking about how some memories he had at Pencey helped him get a sense of good-bye towards the school it was because he felt scared of leaving and he didn't know what to expect as a reaction from his parents and he didn't know what the future that was ahead of him held, it was a typical feeling that any teenager would have when they are about to face reality after being in a place that they had taken for granted, in his case, Pencey was where he lived and where he was supposed to live up to his parents' expectations of doing good in school, I believe he was trying to remember all the positive experiences he had, and even though he may come off to some readers as a very negative character who doesn't care for anything or anyone but himself, I think that deep down he was only trying to deal with his personal issues just like any other typical teenager would when facing a difficult situation similar to his.
As many of my peers have already stated, it is evident that he constantly isolates himself from his classmates, teachers, and even his family. To deal with his feelings of isolation, he deliberately judges everyone around him as a way to cope with alienation. He is shown to have very judgmental and negative thoughts about everyone around him. I feel like he does this to give some kind of reasoning to validate why he is isolating himself from every body. He has formed this defense mechanism over time to avoid feeling of being attached to anyone or getting hurt so he hurts others around him. For example, his brother, D.B , comes down to Holden every weekend as stated but Holden still seems to judge his brother for being from Hollywood. He doesn’t like the Hollywood, and to show how he feels about it he bashes on his brother as he claims as if his brother is a “prostitute”. It seems as he if he is mocking his brother for going to Hollywood because its like he is selling himself out even though he is successful himself. Even when he sees someone in his life in a positive manner, he begins to pick out the little things to again judge someone else to make himself look better.
ReplyDeleteAs to the questions about my “good-bye” to Olympian, I feel like it is still soon to realize how I will do so. I’m expecting that in the incoming senior year I will be able to figure that out.
-Angel Nicole Villareal
As my peers stated, it is evident that Holden made the choice to be alienated. It is shown that Holden would rather be isolated from everyone else than try to fit in with everyone else. His choice of being alienated is shown in chapter 9 when he tries to think of someone to call while he was in New York, but ended up not calling anyone because he didn't want anyone judging him. I believe that Holden alienates himself from other people as a way to protect himself as well. To answer the question regarding how I will say "goodbye" to Olympian, I believe I still have a long way to figure out how I will do so. It's not going to be easy to say good-bye to all of the memories I had at Olympian as well as the friendships I have made. However, when the time comes, I hope I figure out a way to say good-bye.
ReplyDeleteKnowing that Holden is writing from a mental ward does change my perspective on how he is relating to the story because it may not be an accurate portrayal of the story. Because he is suffering from a mental illness, I don't think that Holden has the clarity to tell the truth.
-Janessa Pujeda
To address Mr. Rodriguez's question about noticing Holden's stay in a mental ward, I actually found on the first page where he suggests his unfortunate location. Towards the bottom of page 3 in the second to last sentence he states, "I'll tell you about this madman stuff that happened to me around last Christmas just before I got pretty run-down and had to come out here and take it easy." Now that I noticed this rather important factor about the character, I feel like I have an uneasy trust for this narrator. I believe in the stories he is telling but the context may or may not be exaggerated. I feel like Holden's constant use of the phrase "it really is" is written so that it seems that he is telling the truth. However, knowing that the author actually served time in a mental ward allows me to trust our writer because he has had first hand experience in a mental hospital and also has experience of what it feels like to reach the point of NEEDING to go to a mental hospital. Now that we know our narrator is writing from a mental ward, the story is now more intriguing as we try to discover events that could be so traumatizing as to cause Holden to admit into a mental hospital.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAlong with many of my other peers, I agree Caulfield is alienated for his personal interest. I noticed throughout the story that he would constantly think about other characters in a negative sense whenever he felt like an outsider even when others may disagree with his negative thoughts. For example, Caulfield mentioned how everybody else thought well of Stradlater yet he would make comments about him like, "but he was a secret slob anyway, if you knew him the way I did." Which just shows that he didn't see his peers the same way as everybody else did. I agree with Mr. Rodriguez when he says Caulfield responds to alienation in a very dramatic way in regards to his break out with Stradlater in Chapter 7. Regarding his behavior, I believe Caulfield does begin to get somewhat careless with his actions and lets his anger get the best of him like when he was beginning to pick at a fight with his room mate and thought, "which was a pretty childish thing to say, but I was mad as hell."
ReplyDeleteIn regards to saying "goodbye" to Olympian in the upcoming year, I have yet to make more memories to "get a goodbye" in my senior year.
Since our narrator is writing from a mental ward, I personally don't think he can be relied upon to be telling the truth. Chapter 6 starts off with the sentence, "SOME THINGS ARE HARD TO REMEMBER." in all caps which first made me question if he is a reliable narrator or not. If one can't remember everything than it must be questionable on whether what he's saying is true or if it really happened the way he's portraying it.
- Alyssa Caramoan
Like this who have commented before me, I agree that Holden Caulfield isolates himself from others by choice. He comes off as independent as I have stated before and does not care much about his peers' actions but more so how their actions affect him. If others around him affect what he's doing, then he isn't afraid to let his opinion or what he needs to say be heard. For example, after previously showing interest in Jane,Holden becomes upset with Stradlater when discussing his date. Holden says, "You're a dirty stupid sonuvabitch of a moron." He behaves based on his emotions of anger. Otherwise, if the action of another doesn't bother him, then he does not care at all.
ReplyDeleteAs for my final year and goodbye to Olympian, I imagine that will soak up the atmosphere of the school somewhat like Caulfield did. I have previously left multiple schools and done the same thing. However, a goodbye to Olympian is not just a goodbye to a school. It is a departure from a young age and an arrival to my adult life. I think that I'll hold on to the memories that changed me the most, which includes the good and the bad. As for now, I have one more year to make the best memories I can with those around me.
I personally don't believe that the fact that Caulfield is in a mental hospital changes the story much. Mr. Rodriguez says that by today's standards, Holden is an average teen. However, in his first blog he explains how uncommon it was for someone to think so different from Caulfield's time. Americans were expected to think the same and agree on everything. With the way that Caulfield was thinking as a teen, He may have been out into a mental institution not for actual mental illness, but because he thought differently from others. I do believe however that Holden isn't 100% telling the truth because of how often he finds himself lying and like Alyssa said that he says "SOME THINGS ARE HARD TO REMEMBER". Holden may not be the most reliable narrator but that does not mean he is always lying.
One of the first things that out stood to me about Holden Caulfield were his characteristics and image. It was evident to me that Holden was not very social when he decided to opt out of the high school football game. The fact that he decided to sit alone up on the hill and watch the crowd from the distance is an example of how Holden would isolate himself from his peers. Very early onj in the novel the author also explained to us that Holdon was not much of an athlete, instead of being in the school's football or basketball team, he was the manager of the fencing squad. Well if he was neither athletic or social one must assume that this particular individual was at least intelligent. Well it seems as if Holden has everything going against him because this is in fact the 4th school he has been booted from after failing four classes at the school he was currently attending. Holden does behave like a teenager that is not very athletic, social, or smart, he is an outsider who seems to be figuring out his path in life.
ReplyDeleteIn the second part of the question given by Mr. Rodriguez, he points out to us that Caulfield still has great memories despite the fact that the author has made him come off as a crazy, mentally troubled teenager. The one flashback the narrator has in chapter one does reveal that he is not complete outsider as he recalls playing football with couple of peers during the night time. Now, this vivid memory the narrator shares with us is his way of saying "goodbye" to his high school. For me, as an incoming senior at Olympian High School, a memory that serves as my "goodbye" would be when I took two AP exams in one day. It serves as my goodbye moment because I feel that those 8 hours of consecutive testing will be just like finals at a four year university. That day made me feel as if I were getting closer and closer to getting the full college experience. The way I would say bye to Olympian High School would be in one way and one way only, preforming to my fullest potential whether it's in sports or academics, I want to leave high school knowing I gave it my all senior year.
There were certain clues I picked up on that made me realize that Caulfield was at some sort of institution or hospital. It was at the end of chapter 1 when Caulfield complained "came out here for all these goddamn checkups and stuff," (pg.7). This made it obvious that Caulfield had something wrong going on with him. Now as Mr. Rodriguez claimed that he was in a mental hospital, that I found no clues for but I am sure many events later on in the novel will hint that Caulfield is more than just an outsider.
I strongly agree with my peers in that Holden responds to alienation with cynicism it is evident in the way he describes all the other characters in the novel. One would think that these people that he criticizes would be his friends, family, and peers, yet he still treats them terribly proving the fact that he uses criticism to cope with his feelings of alienation. He belittles and judges his "friends" Robert Akley and Stradlater. I believe that one reason why Holden may feel isolated is due to that fact that he is flunking out of his classes, he seems to be an intelligent person that if he applied himself, proven by the by how well he does in English. It was evident to me when he was able to Stradlater's English assignment so well, he was able to be so descriptive, but obviously was not abe to follow the rules. TO me it seems as though Holden enjoys being iolated because no one else understands him because he is so ahead of his time. When Holden talks about his interaction with people he seems to despise it. I agree with Liliana in that his mental illness would not cloud his judgment, but instead make him more honest. To answer Andrea's question I feel as though if Holden went to our school he would probably feel more at home, and able to be himself because he would be around rebellious teenagers that aren't afraid to speak their mind. Sadly now a day teenagers have no filter when it comes to what they say, but that is perfect for someone like him.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to leaving Olympian it is going to be hard losing all the friends I have made and there will never be a real goodbye, but I personally don't want to think of the goodbyes yet because we are not even close to the end yet, but I know it is going to be difficult.
It is clear that Holden relates to the theme of alienation, not fitting in to a social expectation that is set through his friends and peers. He expresses his feelings towards alienation by the form of criticizing and being judgmental as previously stated by other students. When he describes his peers it is very negative and the readers can assume that Holden strongly dislikes his life since he is so pessimistic. A reason Holden can feel alienation can be that since his roommate Straddler is very well known, good-looking and somewhat smart, the narrator compares himself to him and can be upsetting since he may not be popular or good-looking and is flunking 3 out of 4 of his classes. Holden also criticizes many people for example straddler for going on a date with Jane and staying in the car making him seem like he is taking advantage of an innocent girl. He also criticizes the life of many elders for example his previous history teacher who is trying to help Holden by giving him advice but all Holden does is judge him.
ReplyDeleteAddressing the reference that Mr. Rodriguez stated on page 4-5 when he needs to find a way to say good by to the school. Holden states “ What was I really hanging around for, I was trying to feel some kind of good-by. I mean Ive left schools and places I didn’t even know I was leaving them. I hate that. I don’t care if it's a sad good-by or a bad good-by, but when I leave a place I like to know Im leaving it. If you don’t, you feel even worse.”(7) This reveals how Holden actually cares about his actions at Pencey even if he wants everyone to think he doesn’t. When the time comes to say goodbye to olympian it will be very sad since we have all grown so much memories and experiences that have impacted our lives so much. ‘
I recently had thought Holden was in a mental house but there were no specific evidence that proved he was. The narrators actions throughout the book explain why he acts a certain way considering now we know he was in a mental ward. He’s emotions go from being depressed to angry to reflective that can question the liability of a narrator and a healthy person overall.
Alienation is a major theme in the novel, and it is evident in Holden’s actions. As a growing teenager, spending time with friends and family becomes a major part of one’s life. However, Holden is different in that he isolates himself from the majority of school activities and limits his interactions with other people. This is evident in the very beginning of the novel, when he states that “it was the Saturday of the football game with Saxon Hall…You couldn’t see the grandstand too hot, but you could hear them all yelling, deep and terrific on the Pencey side, because practically the whole school except me was there…” (Chapter 1, pages 4-5). Additionally, I agree with the previous comments in that Holden also uses his critical view of the world as a mechanism for his alienation. Holden not only demonstrates this through his criticism of others, but also through the fact that he considers himself an outsider. This is seen as he states “Game, my ass. Some game. If you get on the side where all the hot-shots are, then it’s a game, all right—I’ll admit that. But if you get on the other side, where there aren’t any hot-shots, then what’s a game about it? Nothing” (Chapter 2, page 11). This implies that Holden immediately classifies himself as unpopular, claiming that he is not a “hot-shot.” Because of this classification, he gives up in striving for success in his academic life.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I believe Holden resolves to alienation and cynicism because of his view of the world. As aforementioned, Holden believes that the world is a cold, cynical place filled with phonies. Holden, a typical growing teenager, fears the idea of change, and thus resolves to alienate himself from the changing world. He desires to uphold his innocence and youth and thus isolates himself in order to shield himself from maturity and the lost of innocence that supposedly comes with growing up.
In regards to Holden’s good-bye to Pencey Prep, the upcoming seniors of Olympian High School should do the same by living in the moment, appreciating friends, family, teachers, and others each day. However, unlike Holden, we must not succumb to the fear of change. Of course, it is difficult to move on, especially during a transition from high school to college. However, with change comes maturity and that change can mold us into better people. To say good-bye to Olympian, upcoming seniors should cherish each memory made but must also look forward to the new change that is to come.
-Abigail Zaratan
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ReplyDeleteOften when one feels misunderstood or mistreated, they act or act irrationally despite its consequences. That is the phenomenon Holden Caulfield regularly confronts as he deals in the story. For one thing, he wanted to provoke Stradlater by calling him "moron" and trying to fight him even though he is fully aware of his own history of never winning fights. Another example is seen where he suddenly leaves Pencey Prep without informing anyone his whereabouts; giving him a high chance of being harmed by strangers, getting lost, or being unable to support himself. I identify with Caulfield with the way he acts or says things that would bring problematic results however his actions are in a more extreme level.
ReplyDeleteThough Caulfield is unable to share interests or beliefs with other characters, one could see his admiration for things that are often overlooked. Although he does not consider himself close to his siblings, his in-depth description of them portrays that he in some way appreciated them. He was able to create a detailed composition of his brother Allie's baseball mitt. And then, he drifts away from the scene and just begins to describe the qualities of his brother. Stradlater then reprimands Caulfield for writing a composition he considered of little importance, demonstrating how Caulfield considers the little things in life that others would not regard or appreciate.
The respect I find for Caulfield is how he accepts the alienation that separates himself from others instead of taking desperate attempts to fit in. He speaks his mind without fearing objections that would result. But in a way, I feel that Caulfield needs to take better care of himself. He does little to prepare his future in terms of academics as evidenced by how he repeatedly drops out of school, makes not the most smart choices such as smoking, drinking, and fighting, and he degrades himself by calling himself the dumbest in his family and a sixteen year old who acts like a thirteen year old. His negativity is what makes him independent but it is also what makes him perceive himself as insignificant.
- Alyssa Jayne Rosario
It is completely normal to feel alone or isolated in some point of one's teenage years. However, Holden Caulfield's case might be a little different mainly because it is evident throughout the novel that he doesn't fit in with anyone, not even with his family. This caught my attention primarily because one of the most important parts of a teenager's life is interaction with his or her family and friends. As I read chapter 4 I began to realize that Holden does indeed isolate himself from others. His self-isolation becomes more noticeable to me, as a reader, specifically when I approached pages 38-40. Through this section of the chapter Holden continuously describes some of his favorite memories of Jane Gallagher to his roommate Stradlater. However, when Stradlater suggest that he goes down to the can and say hello to her, Holden admits that he is not in the mood to talk to Jane. This section of the chapter particularly demonstrates how Holden isolates himself, even from some of his oldest friends, by being unable to hold a conversation with someone who knows him well. What also caught my attention was that Holden makes himself believe that he has friends at his school, but in reality he despites his classmates and constantly finds ways to criticize and insult his so called friends.
ReplyDeleteI noticed that Holden Caulfield's narration of how his life went after being expulsed from Pencey Prep was written from a mental hospital after my second read, where I fully analyzed the first passage of the novel. This changed my perspective of Holden Caulfield because it came to my attention that his narrations might lack detail due to the fact that he is writing to a specialized doctor such as a psychiatrist. This is crucial because it is unclear to the audience whether he is telling the truth about his stories or not. He might be adding or lacking specificity of details due to his current health status.
Finally, when I read the lines in page 5-6, where it talks about Holden saying his last goodbye to Pencey with a memory, I thought it was unique and it got me thinking of the places or people I was never able to say goodbye too. So, as I begin to approach my senior year I believe that I will slowly say goodbye to Olympian High as the different seasons go by. For example, when I attend Homecoming, I will remember of my first time I went to the dance and what it was like. I will continue to attend to school events as I have done for the past 3 years and I will slowly let go of my high school years. I will let go by holding on to those memories and friendships I once built throughout my 4 years at Olympian High School.
Alienation from society is felt by a large majority of people. In a time where the mind is changing, teenagers often feel like social outcasts and different from everyone else. The way Holden copes with his loneliness and isolation is very unique compared to other people his age. He utilizes a critical tone to make judgments about the people around him. One scene where Holden does this is when he is in the Lavender Room in the first hotel he stayed at when he visited New York. He is alone at the nightclub when he spots a group of women in the club. When he converses with them, he describes them very negatively to the reader, calling them “witches” and “morons.” Holden is criticizing complete strangers based on their looks and personality which is very interesting for a person his age. This occurred at a time soon after he ran away from his problems at Pencey and explored New York on his own. Holden was feeling very depressed and did not know how to handle his sudden loneliness. As a result, he is immature and criticizes people that are living happier lives.
ReplyDeleteDespite his mainly solitary life, there are cases where Holden recalls fond memories of other people’s company, such as in the beginning of the book where he describes passing a football with other classmates before saying goodbye to Pencey. Knowing that Holden has something to remember his school by is very heartwarming. Since we are graduating this school year, I would like to have many memories with the same heartwarming effect as Holden’s memory of playing catch with his peers.
I was not under the impression when beginning the book that Holden was in the mental ward of a hospital. I did, however, eventually discover that something was wrong with him when he continuously goes off topic and has to say “Anyways” in order to get back on topic. With that in mind, it is more difficult to trust what Holden says. Holden’s convoluted style of explaining events harms his overall credibility and makes me question if what he is saying is true.
- Kelvin Alvero
I would disagree with your claim of Holden's reaction being unique. Although the expected behavior from a teenager in such situation of isolation would be wanting to fit in to the norm once more, becoming bitter towards the world like Holden is not uncommon. Many teenagers in the contemporary society still resort to rejecting the world around them and becoming negative towards other people. Holden is also depicted to be very impatient with the other people due to his view, as evidenced by his conversation with Mr. Spencer. Moreover, a teenager judging other people for their appearance is also a common reaction as well, and this does not pertain to teenagers but everyone. To certain extent, everyone judges people based on their clothes, expressions, and behaviors. Holden's interpretations of the people may have been somewhat extreme, but this is not a rare occasion.
DeleteOn the other hand, I do agree that he was immature and the fact that he still had fond memories of other people. Holden misses his sister Phoebe throughout the novel and he has a nice memory of his teacher from Elkton Hills, Mr. Antolini. He also seems to want other people's company as he feels lonely constantly and seeks for other girls.
It is quite difficult to notice that he is in a mental ward in the first time read as no one expects the said teenager to be writing an autobiography in such place. However, the key was to "take it easy" and his brother D.B. coming to visit him once in awhile. I suspected at first that Holden was physically sick; however, he was mentally sick.
Almost everyone, at some point in their life, feels alienated. In this case, Holden doesn’t fit in with his classmates very well and holds a unique personality compared to the others so he tends to isolate himself from everyone. Not only that, but Holden turns his feelings of isolation into anger. For example, when he left Pencey to go stay in a hotel in New York, he explained how he was staring down the corridor and then almost started crying, yet moments later he yelled, “Sleep tight, ya morons!” It seems as though Holden is very sad about many things, but instead of showing his sadness, he shows anger due to what I believe is his possible thought of others making fun of him. Also, because Holden does not necessarily fit in, I believe that he turns to smoking and cussing as a way to relieve stress. For instance, when he is very annoyed with Stradlater, he pulls out a cigarette. It is very evident that this may be so he can escape reality and go into his own world where he actually does fit in.
ReplyDeleteAlthough Holden may just seem bitter and angry most of the time, there are points when he sincerely reflects on his life. One of these points being when he remembers the time he was passing the football around with another boy. He uses this specific instance as a way to basically remember Pencey and the good times he did have there. I hope that when I get closer to the end of my senior year, I have not one, but many memories that signify the wonderful time I had at Olympian High School. Although it will be a sad change in my life, the great memories I made will always allow me to remember Olympian for the better.
Once I figured out that Holden is writing from a mental ward of a hospital, it is more clean to me why he is acting in such a negative manner. When he first described his location as crumby, I was very confused considering he went to a very rich boarding school, however now that I know that he is in a hospital, it is obvious as to why he described his location as crumby. Realizing that he suffered a traumatic injury, you would think that his stories would lack clarity, however I think that most of them are pretty honest and true. He makes it seem as though he is a very negative person and many people would sugar coat their negative personality, however he does not. Holden has every right to have a negative attitude and now I have way more sympathy for him.
-Caroline Beel
I agree with the posts above that Holden responds to alienation through cynicism, the way he isolates himself from his family and friends and the judgments he gives throughout the novel. At Pencey Prep he is not very active in student activities, in the beginning of the novel he stays in his dorm while the football game is going on. He classifies himself as unpopular and doesn't want to be with his classmates or involved in any of that stuff. He is very rebellious and always wants to do his own things. Indeed he does reflect teens today. Sadly there are also parts of Holden that are similar in teens today such as the drinking and the smoking. It is no lie that all of these things are present in our daily lives, Holden is an example of those actions.
ReplyDeleteI think that Holden brings the alienation towards himself like some of my peers said in posts above, he doesn't seem to want to be friends with Ackley or Stradlater. Instead he talks bad about them, especially Ackley, he says he has a terrible personality and a nasty guy. In chapter 3 page 26 he says, "He was one of these very, very tall, round-shouldered guys he was about six four with lousy teeth." We can clearly see that Holden is responsible of being alienated, he has brought it all upon himself. He is not very close to his family and he doesn't seem to visit them often or talk to them over the phone. He didn't even want to tell his parents that he had been expelled from Pencey Prep. This tells a lot about Holden as a character, he wants to always solve everything by himself and have no help from others.
I hadn't noticed that Holden had written from a mental hospital, after I read the passage again my perspective changed a little for Holden but not as much as I thought. Him being in a mental hospital has no reason to change Holden as a narrator he is as capable of writing as if he wasn't ill. Although some situations or memories may have been altered due to his mental illness he still narrates his story clearly as he would if he was healthy. When he talks about saying goodbye to Pencey it made me realize that it may not be as easy to say goodbye to Olympian. After four years attending this school memories have been built as well as friendships throughout the years. It will not be easy to move on and leave everything behind. I know that it has to come to an end at some point and I hope it ends with wonderful memories, this will always help me remember Olympian and the great times I had. Now I have this year to make the most of it and enjoy it as much as I can. There is only one high school senior year and this is the time to give everything we can to end high school in the best way possible.
-Alexa Chavez
As so many of peers have already stated I must also agree with the point that Holden alienates himself from society not because he wants to necessarily but because he doesn't see the reason to join with society. I believe Holden uses his negative perspective on life as a way to protect himself from the pain of losing someone again. Before I continue down this train of thought I would like to point out the fact that Holden IS close to his family, extremely close. Do not forget that he admires his older brother D.B. even though he became a screenwriter, he adores his little sister Phoebe and he continues to love his younger brother Allie. He loves his parents and is grateful to them but is simply afraid to upset them again especially his mother due to her nerves. Now back to my previous train of thought, because of Allies death I feel that Holden has lost interest of befriending anyone else for fear that just like Allie they too will leave him. Not to mention his fear of him own self disappearing and being forgotten, he demonstrates this emotion when walking to Mr. Spencer's house. Yes, he does speak in a crude manner and is constantly dissing those around him, but in the end he still cares for the people he met.
DeleteIn regards to the goodbye I will have to make to Olympian when I leave, it will be tough and bittersweet. Just like Holden though, I will fear being forgotten and lost in the big world but also excited to discover new places. This will only be my second year at Olympian but it is enough, I must look towards the future and only smile back on the past.
-Vianney Sandoval
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ReplyDeleteAlienation is a common feeling to experience while growing up. Teens are often more susceptible to vivid and more intense emotions during this period of growth and learning. Often these emotions can cause them to separate themselves among their peers because of the changing perspectives. In the novel Holden is very cynical and develops a negative judgemental attitude towards his peers. I, similar to the opinions of my peers, believe that Holden copes with his alienation in society through his harsh judgement of others.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, Holden describes his friend Ackley in quite a degrading manner. He describes Ackley to have “a mouth full of mashed potatoes and peas” and “a terrible personality” (chap. 3, pg 26). His use of imagery to depict Ackley in a negative manner reveals the alienation he feels from that of other private school boys. He believes them to all be rude, as well as “phonies”. Throughout the first half of the novel, Holden is also very critical of Stradler. He does not like the idea of Stradler fooling around with his friend Jane Gallagher. This is somewhat ironic because Holden has messed with other girls himself. Holden’s apparent dislike for his classmates reveals the alienation he feels, and his need to be different to others. Holden wants to be different than the boys at Pencey, and in order to do so he feels as though the social norms need to be broken. Therefore, he tends to act out immaturely and in ways that also set him apart from the other boys at the school.
In relation to my experience at Olympian, I believe that there needs to be closure before I move on. Similar to what Lizeth states, I believe that I need to finish before I can start something new. Instead of remembering the bad memories, I will remember the good ones and hold on to them. In a way this is similar to Holden recounting his positive memories and holding on to them in order to be able to move forward in the future.
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ReplyDeleteGrowing up, I cannot say that I have not witnessed or experienced alienation, because I have. Everybody always wants something they do not have like wealth, better looks, etc. In response to not being able to have something within arms reach, people then feel left out or not being able to fit in. Just as Vinnie Widjaja claims, the feeling of alienation can lead to a person separating themselves from their peers. Especially if that feeling progresses to depression, which seems to be happening to Holden as the story goes along.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Mr.Rodriguez, Holden seems to deal with his problem by being judgmental to his peers, and only pointing out the negative. For instance, in chapter 3 Ackley is being introduced into the story, but not as a very eye appealing guy. Holden points out Ackley's "lousy teeth" "a lot of pimples" and a "terrible personality". However, these judgments don't stop for just displeasing looking people, but as well as people he claims as attractive. In chapter 4, Holden claims Stradlater as being a good looking guy but being "a slob in his personal habits". To Mr.Rodriguez final question, Holden being in a mental ward does not really seem to shift my perspective much. I can agree that this statement could seem to bring confusion because Holden may not seem as reliable to be telling the truth based on his conditions. However, Holden is the only person that can give his own deep thoughts and opinions on how his life was leading up to that current event. Therefore, I believe Holden deems reliable because there is no one else that could explicitly explain what is going on in Holden's mind.
Lastly, I would like to conclude with how I will be saying "goodbye" to Olympian next year. As it is already, when it comes to ending things it takes a while for it to fully hit him. For instance, ending junior year and going into summer, it did not really occur to me that it was summer. It sort of just felt like a very long weekend for me, for a while. However, now as senior year is approaching, it is finally hitting me that this is going to be my last year at Olympian ever. In all, what i'm saying is that I usually cannot just tell myself that school is over for me to fully grasp onto it, it will probably hit me half way into summer after senior year.
-Mariah Brown
Through reading Catcher In The Rye, Holden's alienation is quite evident. For example, he is failed all his classes but one, he did not attend the football game, and he is friends with a teacher. Furthermore, the part where he talks about him leaving all the fencing equipment behind shows that he does not quite fit along with his peers. However his alienation from everyone else is a normal part of being a teenager, which reminds the reader that he is not a typical narrator, but rather a still immature student. Holden somewhat adds onto his alienation by judging many people. For example, he makes a comment about how he did not want to get lectured by Mr. Spencer due to his bumpy chest. Also, Holden takes note of Ackley by describing his unruly teeth. He even judges his own roommate who he claims is not such a bad guy, yet he still makes note of his conceited behavior. I feel as if Holden distances his self with his peers and keeps to him self to show his independent nature.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, I do agree that Holden talking about how he will try to think of a good memory of Pencey Prep, shows his innocence even though he is very troubled. Personally, I feel like when I leave Olympian I will have many good memories yet I will have some regrets. Part of me wants to be a cynic like Holden and leave Olympian as soon as possible, yet I cannot deny that I have met many friendly people and have shared many memories with them. Thus, I am looking forward to making senior year a year I will not forget.
Many of my peers above have acknowledged the idea that many people at our age feel or have felt alienated in this short time of life we have experienced on this earth. The feeling of alienation is something I believe no one will escape on this earth. After Holden leaves the fencing equipment on the bus he feels a bit alienation from his peers and in response to that stays in his room while most people attending the football game that night. It is important to point out that not everyone deals with a feeling of alienation in a positive manner. Holden is very shut off and over analytical as a response to this feeling of alienation and becomes very cynical. This not very healthy and needs to find better ways to deal with these feelings otherwise things could take a turn for the worse.
ReplyDeleteNext year I am not sure right now what the right way to say goodbye to Olympian. I know I might shed a tear or two at graduation and that might be enough. Maybe just sitting at the spot I always hangout at lunch and just reflecting after school one day will be the best way to really say goodbye. I don't think there will be a lot of time to be cynical because I think the year will move by faster than I can blink. I also believe that you cannot really force memories that you will take you with you in your future, they will happen and they may not all be positive. Trying to force memories like Holden does before he leaves Pencey is not very productive in my opinion.
As many of my peers have stated, I believe that Holden alienates himself and acts in a cynical matter, in order to protect himself from the unpleasant environment that surrounds him. In chapter 3, page 30, Salinger writes,"'This is a people shooting hat,' I said. 'I shoot people in this hat.'" Holden's hat symbolizes his uniqueness, individuality, and that he is different from others. I think the hat is associated with his sense of alienation because he cynically says he "shoots people", meaning he criticizes and judges others. An example of Holden judging and criticizing someone is when he describes Ackley. Holden says Ackley is "a very peculiar guy", "he had a lot of pimples", and that "He was also a sort of a nasty guy". Holden's constant habit of judging others is one of the reasons why he doesn't have many friends, and therefore, feels alienated. At the same time, however, I think he denigrates people due to his own insecurities.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Mr. Rodriguez's question on how I'm going to say "goodbye" to Olympian next year, I will be saying goodbye via senior events such as prom, grad night and the graduation ceremony. I plan to have as much fun as I can this last year of high school, but at the same time I want to finish high school strong by achieving solid academic grades. I don't think I will have a single memory that will stand out from high school, but rather a collection of memories that will stay with me forever.
Knowing that Holden is writing his story from a mental therapy center in a hospital, it definitely changes my perspective on the character because it makes me wonder if the information that he is passing on to his audience is credible or not.
Although I have completed the reading, I can still recall that Holden seems to alienate himself from most things in order to avoid the many things that he does not enjoy. For example, throughout the story there was the hat that was presented constantly and symbolized Holden's individuality and how he is different from the rest. I also agree with my classmate Shalin on his idea that Holden does not have many friend because he judges those around him without a limit to what he says, making him feel alienated. Adding on to his his statement I want to say that Holden is honestly trying to set himself up to be alienated because nobody talks so poorly to someone and telling them straight up. I do however believe that he puts people down in order to give himself this feeling that he is an upper dog.
ReplyDeleteNow how will I say goodbye to Olympian next year? I will be saying goodbye to Olympian by attending any senior events that the school has to offer and by doing the best to my capability in all of my classes. I will also have the most fun that I have ever had in a school year considering that my friends and I will be attending college but at different locations. I believe that my experience at Olympian is one that will be put in the books and remembered forever.
Now that I am aware that Holden is writing this story from a mental therapy center in a hospital, it changes my idea of how I percieved Holden and I also wonder if his story is true considering he must have a mental illness.
I believe that Holden Caulfield is the one alienating himself. As many others have pointed out, Holden just doesn't seem to want interaction with other people, leading him to purposefully avoid creating meaningful connections. He seems to see the world as his enemy with his hyper-cynical attitude. His judgement of other people seems to come mainly from what he thinks is right and wrong, so everyone that is different from him (which is pretty much everyone) is in the wrong. He definitely wouldn't want to befriend anyone by being polite and complacent with them because that would make him a "phony" that he so deeply hates. This all ties in to his intentional alienation in which he purposefully avoids other people. Even the people that he seems to be on good terms with, such as Stradlater and to some degree Ackley, he just barely seems to tolerate and he doesn't seem to have any real friendship with.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I didn't pick up the fact that Holden was writing from a psychiatric ward, I did definitely suspect him of mental illness. Holden seems to have no concern with his future or the repercussions of his actions, leading me to believe he can only live in the moment. However the bigger clue is Holden's habitual lying. His interaction with Ms. Morrow in chapter 8 really drove the final nail in the coffin. Nearly as soon as he meets this woman, he starts to lie through his teeth. He evens seems to be rather proud of his lying skills. This compulsive lying and manipulation of emotions led me to believe that Holden may be a sociopath: "a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience".
ReplyDeleteFrom the start I did get the sense that Caulfield had been in a mental ward due to all the flashbacks, however I certainly doubted myself because Caulfield did attend a high- prep school, but as I read further these flashbacks seemed somewhat unnatural as well as the way he expressed his thoughts. Now that I have confirmed that the narrator was in fact in a mental ward I would not fully trust him when it comes to telling the truth, I would say that some clarity can be found ,but not entirely.
Caulfield definitely reacts towards this feeling of alienation, from what I read, he tries to isolate himself from people. In addition to the fact that he has now attended various preps, in chapter 3 we see how Caulfield prefers to sit in his room and re- read books while everyone including his room mates attend the football game, " it was pretty nice to get to my room, after I left old spencer, because everybody was down at the game, and the heat was on in our room." ( page 21) This not only reveals the fact that Caulfield preferred to be alone, it also makes me connect modern teenagers with Holden Caulfield. Nowadays if teenagers feel alienated most seek to hide and most respond to it the same way. Most teenagers for instance try to find comfort in drugs and alcohol and some even adjust their perspective on life and it is crazy to think that this has been occurring for years. We see since the beginning that Caulfield seemed to have hatred towards someone or something in his heart by just analyzing the way he expressed his thoughts. We now know that his way of expressing towards the world surrounding him in such a negative way is an outcome of the alienation that he once went through. For example, when conversing with Mr. Spencer, he makes clear to him that he left Elkton Hills because he was surrounded by "phonies". This immediately made me stop and analyze everything because this was certainly one of the outcomes of his reaction towards feeling "left out." We can also distinguish the fact that Caulfield lost trust in adults you can say, due to him not having the sufficient support from an adult. For example, when he visits Mr. Spencer we get the feeling that Caulfield is trying to get the conversation over with while Mr. Spencer is trying to motivate him into trying harder in school and this meeting concludes with Caulfield lying about him having to leave. This with no doubt proves that Caulfield reached a point where he really does not take anything in consideration anymore.
In response to Mr. Rodriguez's question regarding the end of senior year and how we will say good bye , I truly believe that It will be extremely hard to say goodbye to some friends especially knowing that a vast amount will be parting to different colleges. I definitely would not be able to recall only one specific memory, I have too many wonderful memories . This year I plan to take the good in each and ever day of my senior year and surround myself with positive people. When it comes to academics, I will strive to push myself everyday to work harder, and when it comes to sports I will work even harder to obtain all of my goals.
-Yaressy Garcia
In the beginning I had not realized that Holden was in a mental institute, reading the entries from my peers have taught me to change my perspective and view it slightly different connecting the narrator’s attitude and way to tell his life story to us.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Mr. Rodriguez, as most of my peers have stated I believe that Holden‘s attitude is very negative towards others. This takes a significant turn in the novel because it causes the readers to be personally inclined to Holden’s descriptions and believe them as he states them to be. After taking in consideration the note that the book is viewed from a flash back of Holden’s life I realized that maybe his cause of mental illness could foreshadow an event that will reveal why he has so much hatred and negative vibes toward others in the novel, except Jean. I also agree with what Yaressy stated about Holden preferring to be alone. While reading I connected the idea that Yaressy also shares, in that most teenagers who feel alienated react in similar ways, they are quite, refer to reading and prefer to be alone. Later on in the novel when Holden is explaining to Mr. Spencer that he had moved schools quite often and he was used to starting new I looked back to see if there were problems at home or whether he lived in an unstable environment that caused him to react very negatively towards his peers and was the base of his attitude. When I re-read I saw that Holden describes his parents as “Nice and all- I’m not saying that- but they are also touchy as hell” (p.3) this shows from the very beginning of the novel that Holden does not have a very close relationship with his parents and this is probably where he began to develop his feeling of alienation towards people therefore causing him to actively criticize others and continuously put himself down with negativity.
-Nubia Alvarez
I agree with my peers about Holden's reactions to alienation. Alienated people tend to criticize others greatly as ways of expressing their frustrations, and Holden tends to criticize everyone he comes in contact with. He tends to call people "Phony" and shows deep contempt for "phonies" What I do not understand is even the people such as Mr. Spencer and his wife do acts of kindess for Holden he still labels them as phonies. For example towards the end of the novel he states, "Even the couple of nice teachers on the faculty, they were phonies, too" (pg. 185). Holden then describes how Mr. Spencer would act differently when the headmaster would enter the classroom. believe Holden's alienation is the reason he tends to judge even the nicest of people.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of where Holden is as he narrates the novel, I was not aware he was in a mental hospital. I keep reviewing the first few paragraphs I begin to reaalize the setting now and connect the peaces together. I believe Holden's alienation and social issues began when his brother Allie passed away. Allie is one of the few people Holden doesn't criticize and a sibling passing away tends to be a traumatic event to most people. I believe this is a turning point in Holden's life as when he descirbes flashbacks to his childhood, they sounded rather happy and peaceful as he talks about skating with Phoebe at central park and his memories with Allie. And also at Allie's death Holden said he began punching the windows in his garage and was sent to a psychoanalysis. It was later revealed that Holden did not attend the funeral as he was in the hospital at the time. Also it was stated that when Allie passed away, Holden's mother began to change for the worse, being more paranoid, nervous, etc. This change could have led to Holden's alienated feelings with his parents that could have reflected to his future life, where it is seen in his social life.
-Sergio Renteria
I’d like to concur with what Brenden had stated regarding Holden’s feelings of isolation. Holden has constantly shown that he is a very judgemental person. Throughout the chapters he describes to the readers his own evaluations of the people surrounding him, calling them certain names and labels, all of which he had acquainted himself with. He proves to show that he has a negative mindset regarding his own life, this is evident as he constantly states many things make him sad and depressed as he engages himself with other people. His negative characteristics coincide with his feeling of loneliness and isolation as he strived to spend time with others, friends he hasn’t seen in awhile or even people he had just met, in order to fill in the hole in his life. This hole of suffering of being lonely deep inside, constantly has been failed to fill as his negative characteristics and attitude of life and people has affected his social life, driving him to push away the people that he wishes to spend time with.
ReplyDeleteSeveral occasions of which he was given the opportunity to spend time with others were ruined and concluded in a catastrophe as our protagonist’s characteristics had diminished the need for conversation, deeming the presence of Holden by other characters unwanted. This was clearly evident on the date with Sally and his old companion Old Luce. He had ruined his date with Sally with his insane idea to run away with her and get married together, later on offending her. He had also irritated his pal Luce, with his constant personal questions with Luce’s life with his new girl. All of which were moments of desperation in need to fulfill the his need to spend time with others. He had constantly conflicted himself with the idea to spend time, whether it was to get cocktails, drinks, or not with anyone he could, but he ruined the occasions. He had continually criticized many of his peers and acquaintances, all concluding with the negative aspects of their lives’, deeming them to be unworthy of spending his time with them, but coincidentally he desperately wanted to spend time with someone.
And to go on with Brenden’s answer to Mr. Rodriguez’s question, making our last and final year as a high school student of which we may or may not have spent all four years at Olympian High School, I feel that it is important to enjoy this last year with our friends, to make it the most memorable year. This will be our last year, saying “goodbye” to the young adolescent life, as we will be continuing our life on another stage, another level, whether it would be college or joining the military, it is important to make this last year spectacular, but also at the same time we should challenge ourselves academically. Challenging ourselves would better ourselves for our futures, especially for those who plan to continue their education in a college or university, as it is important to look academically prepared for the rigorous education that awaits us.
-Rendell Miguel
When I first read the opening passage It did not click for me that Holden was writing from a mental ward of a hospital however after reading these posts it finally all made sense and I went back to re-read that first passage. After knowing this important fact it made me change my perspective on him because when I read the last chapter it finally clicked that he was in a mental ward and I felt sort of relieved that he finally did something that was going to help him in his life because throughout the novel he came across as careless and just doing things for himself, he did not care that he was going to get kicked out of school until he got kicked out and realized that his parents were going to be disappointed but he never really tried to not get kicked out and to better himself, so for him to be In a mental ward made it seem like he was finally bettering himself, however it also made him less reliable than he already was in my eyes because as a reader I did not know the status of his mind whether he was healthy or not and through out the novel he lied a lot which made him already unreliable. Also, my "goodbye" to Olympian will be by having a fun and good senior year and by making good memories that I can look back on one day.
ReplyDelete-Briana Rios
As the original post has stated, being kicked out of several schools prior to the beginning of the novel makes it known that Holden has experience with being alienated from a large group. Although Holden would like to believe he is better for it, being as how he views prep schools to be filled with phonies, he does tend to act out against it because being rejected on several different occasions can be heartbreaking. Being rejected most likely pushes him further away from the conventions of those who have turned him away. That's why Holden likes his red hunting hat so much, because as a symbol of his individuality and unwillingness to conform. Ways that Holden acts out against his isolation are by smoking, drinking, and not taking school seriously. As noted, Holden can be poetic about his alienation. For example, on page 8 he says, "It was that kind of crazy afternoon, terrifically cold, and no sun out or anything, and you felt like you were disappearing every time you crossed the road." When Holden talks about disappearing, I think it has to with the loneliness and isolation he feels. Even in a place he's known for months like Pency, he does not feel as if he is a part of it, or as if he will have any lasting mark on it. The weather, dismal and uncomfortable also give insight as to how Holden feels at Pency, and foreshadow his thoughts and emotions for the remainder of the novel.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I first read The Catcher in the Rye years ago, it was only re-reading this summer that I realized Holden is writing from a psychiatric ward of a hospital. I think that's because when I was younger, I would read books solely for the narrative and plot. Now, however, I feel that I am a more keen reader when it comes to symbolism and clues the author gives to readers about what is happening beneath the surface of a novel. Additionally, as someone who has never been involved in extracurricular activities at Olympian, my goodbye to it will be easy, I imagine. I consider myself a very sentimental person, however, even though I have attended Olympian since I was a freshman, I don't feel tied to the school in any specific way. I feel like there are very few specific people, instead of the school as a whole, that I'll be compelled to come up with some sort of sentimental farewell.
Like many of my peers have stated before, I see Holden isolating himself through him criticizing and judging others. I feel like Holden does not see himself like the other teenage characters in this book and cannot exactly relate with them, so because of that, I think he decides to isolate himself. With this isolation I think comes the constant judging of others and the pointing our of negative traits, so Holden can paint them as bad people to the readers, and justify to himself and maybe the reader why he does not wish to associate with these people. While saying this, I also see Holden sometimes changing his mind about his peers. He sometimes goes from constantly criticizing them to saying that they are not that bad. Also, while saying all these bad things about them, he still tends to try to associate with them, they do live together, but one specific time is when he decides to go sleep in Ely’s bed in Ackley’s room and try to have a conversation with Ackley. He claims that he feels rotten and lonesome and that that’s why he goes to Ackley’s room. This part I did not particularly understand very well, but I do know that it can say a lot about Holden’s character and whether he might feel lonely sometimes. I just found it interesting how he can talk so negatively about someone but then choose to go have a conversation with them. I don’t exactly understand it, but I do think it has to do with Holden feeling lonesome and the whole idea of him isolating himself. I do think he notices that it might be "phony", as he terms it, because at the end of this whole situation when he decides to leave Pencey, he states "I stopped on the way, through, and picked up Ackley's hand, and gave him a big, phony handshake." (pg. 57) So maybe it is Holden feeling lonely, because in the end he knows that hanging around Ackley is pretty phony for him.
ReplyDeleteAs many other students have pointed out, Holden's alienation is seen early in the book. It can be seen when he doesn't join the rest of the school during the football game, or when he points out that he's failing his classes. Due to the alienation, he tends to lash out towards the others in his life. He most likely sees them as the cause and therefore looks for their negative aspects. Whether it's pointing out Ackley's dental hygiene and obliviousness or Mr. Spencer's age and frailness. He tends to see those he disagrees with or has conflicts with as phonies, people who are pretending and aren't showing their true selves. However this is one of the causes of his alienation, he constantly believes that people are phony, while this is often true, it also shows that he's a hypocrite as he also doesn't show his true self to others. His alienation however can also be caused by his jealousy towards other students such as Stradlater, who while he says he's a secret slob who always looks good and handsome, Holden wishes he was Strandlater when it came to women such as Jane Gallagher.
ReplyDeleteReferring to the questions asking about saying "goodbye" to Olympian, I believe the reality that it's my last year in high school hasn't completely set in yet. I know I only have to complete this year until my transition to college, however I won't truly believe it until my time to graduate cuts closer. While I think that everyone slowly loses their innocence as they grow up, I don't believe we'll have completely shed it at this point. We're still young and there will be many challenges throughout our lives. Possibly harder than what we have so far experienced. So my goodbye to the school will possibly be myself and my friends reminiscing the time we have spent together in the school.
Finally, I myself didn't see the fact that Holden was writing from a mental ward until I read pg.3 again. Seeing the fact that he's writing from the mental ward does change how I see the book. While I believe he's telling what occurred to his as well as he's able to, I don't think it's all true. He himself stated at the start of chapter 3 that he's "the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life." As this is in one of the earlier chapters, I believe he's somewhat warning the readers ahead of time.
Like my peers have stated, it is obvious that Holden criticizes and isolates himself from people as a result of his alienation. In his response to Dr. Thurmer , Holden reveals how in the game of life, he feels like he is the target that everyone is after. This causes him to isolate himself in order to prevent people from taking advantage of him. Holden has a confusing relationship with his peers as he criticizes their smallest habits but then contradicts himself by stating how he only temporarily hated them (as revealed in page 206). I feel that this relationship is caused from him feeling isolated in the game of life in which he is the “other team” that is attacked by the ones with “hot-shots”. His alienation is more of a result of taking precautionary measures of getting attacked. Or an alternative reason on why he still keeps a distanced connection with his peers (although he dislikes them) is to refrain from experiencing the same pain he felt with his brother Allie. When his brother Allie died, he never received the closure to properly grieve and he never healed. Perhaps he keeps a connection with his peers to prevent from experiencing the same pain if an incident did occur. Although Holden tends to rebel and be critical, he reveals innocence by never physically alienating himself from his peers.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the perspective in which Holden was writing from, I initially did not notice that he was writing from a mental hospital. This changes the way I perceive Holden as now I feel that since he had more time to reflect, he would be more capable of telling the truth and admitting to his past mistakes. I believe people are more prone to admit to mistakes when they have reflected and changed because of them instead of while they’re facing them. The fact that he is in a mental hospital also makes Holden more appealing to me because now I feel sort of proud of him to overcome his struggles in contrast to how I disliked him before for being so critical and confusing.
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ReplyDeleteWith alienation being a major theme of the book, and a major building block in many teenagers' lives, every teenager has a different way of coping with their social and internal complications. Reading on through the chapters, along with my peers, I have also come to realize that Holden has a very unique way of dealing with the alienation he feels. As Mr. Rodriguez stated, while Holden was watching the football game, trying to "feel" goodbye, I realized that Holden was trying to come up with a reason to miss Pency Prep and its students. With this scene, I also began to think that Holden really isn't the careless person I thought he was. However, this is only one way Holden has tried to deal with his feeling of isolation.
ReplyDeleteAs many of my peers have stated, Holden has reacted to isolation very negatively. I agree with Brenden, and how Holden, in Chapter 3 describes Ackley very negatively by saying he has "lousy teeth", "a lot of pimples", and is a "very peculiar" person. I can infer that Holden feels the need to speak negatively about his peers to make himself feel like he is superior. As if he is isolated because no one is like him, and feels that he is in between both a good and bad person, although his character shows otherwise.
In the previous chapters leading up to chapter three, I have come to notice that Holden is a great liar. For example, in chapter two, as Old Spencer is speaking to Holden about his academic endeavors, Holden quickly claims that he needs to be elsewhere, avoiding the rest of the conversation. I think Holden does this to abstain from taking conversations or situations to a personal level. As I said before, Holden seemed to be the type of person to want to talk about the things he pleases, and not of the things he wishes to avoid, which is why I feel that is the reason why he does not give much of a background of himself in the opening paragraph.
To answer Mr. Rodriguez's question about being able to have a good bye at the end of senior year, I just want to be able to have the most fun, memorable year of my high school experience, so that when it's time to say good bye, I will have great memories to think about.
I think that alienation is both harmful and protects Holden.
ReplyDeleteFor example his isolation protects him because he does not have to encounter people that will cause awkwardness, rejection, or emotional pain. A form of this protection is represented by his red hunting hat. This hat allows him to feel independent and separated from the world, which causes him joy.
But just like Mr. Antolini, Phoebe, and the symbolism the ducks offer, Holden has to adapt to this world because he is human. And although he wishes he didn't to feel human contact he does and that causes him to feel lonely and depressed.
This alienation seems to be created by Holden's fear of human contact that leads to loneliness which causes him to reach out for people but those encounters seem to lead to bad experiences that convince Holden that people are no good and that frightens him.
Holden is writing from a mental hospital showing that he did really get out society. I personally liked the chronological order of the book because after reading it made me think that Holden is like the ducks that will leave during the winter time but will come back and adapt to the environment. For me, Holden is full of hope and the fact that he is in a mental hospital does not make me doubt him as a narrator.
For a senior goodbye, I do not want it to be based off remembering one memory but instead I hope to get the best out of the year and create many memories so that I can have a lot to remember from.
As my fellow student peers have mentioned, I also believe that Holden chose to isolate himself from the rest of his peers because he is aware that he has flaws as a person as well, but does not want to admit that he has these flaws. Therefore, he chooses to alienate himself from the other students. He makes himself believe that he has no wrong in everything that he does, and that everyone else has flaws that make him better than the others. As many people have already pointed out, we are able to make these deductions when Holden describes Ackley by all the negative characteristics he has. However, I was able to see that Holden had this habit of forming a 'safety bubble' around himself in the chapter before that (Chapter 2).
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden goes to visit Mr. Spencer before he leaves Pencey, he describes his encounter with Mr. Spencer in great detail. The reader is led into the chapter thinking that Holden cherishes Mr. Spencer. However, the more and more Mr. Spencer points out all the flaws and wrongdoings about Holden, he begins to drift off and think about other topics that go off on tangents of Mr. Spencer's point. In addition, the habits that Holden finds 'annoying' about Mr. Spencer, he actually does as well. For example, Holden complains about about he finds it irritating when people repeat the same phrases in the same tone, in the same manner; yet, we find Holden having similar speech patterns, such as repeating the same phrases and same points consecutively ("I really do... I really do" {pg.13}. / I wouldn't... I really wouldn't {pg. 17}.) Technically speaking, since Holden finds Mr. Spencer's speech patterns annoying, Holden should find his own speech patterns annoying as well. Still, B]by telling himself that he is better than Mr. Spencer boosts his self esteem and makes himself feel better about himself. But in reality, Holden parallels Mr. Spencer's speech patterns.
I believe that I will not be able to give my official 'goodbye' to Olympian High until the day comes where I have to leave for college myself. I know that the high school year starts before the college school year does, so I will still be visiting as often as I can. However, I will hold the memory of graduating from Olympian High School as my closure for this arc of my life.
Finally, I was able to deduce that Holden was in some sort of place where he was by himself because the way the novel opened was structured almost like a diary entry to himself. I do believe, similar to Jaevante Valenciano, that because he is in an unstable mental state, that not all the things that Holden may be sharing are entirely reliable. Still, when a person is mentally unstable, there are still patches of memories they may be able to retain. So, I hold it to be true that some, but not all, of Holden's words, are indeed accurate.
Holden copes with alienation by attempting to force relationships with strangers and individuals he is not fond of. He is portrayed as being extremely impulsive; and does not give much thought to actions that may negatively affect his future.
ReplyDeleteHolden invites strangers to spend time with him a plethora of times throughout the novel. Just to escape his feelings of alienation. For example in page 64 Holden invites Mrs. Morrow, Earnie's mother, for a cocktail. Holden has no genuine interest in establishing a relationship with this woman. He merely does not want to be alone with his thoughts that night. Furthermore, I can see why my peers argue that Holden resorts to judging others. In page 93 Holden reveals that talking to his taxi driver, Horwitz, "wasn't any pleasure," yet that did not stop him from inviting him to "have a drink with [him] somewhere". Also in page 146, Holden asks Sally to run away with him. Holden reveals that he does not have anything properly set up to complete such a bold move, but asserts that eventually everything will work out. After Sally rejected his offer Holden reveals that even if she had agreed to go, he would not have followed through.
-Ingrid Reyes
Holden chose to isolate himself because of his somewhat different qualities compared to his peers at his school. Holden wanted to be and individual but on the other hand, he also wanted to 'fit in' at times. I found this very contradicting because at times he would criticize other people in his mind, but then again it was Holden that allowed them to come into his life.
ReplyDeleteAs for graduating from Olympian High school, I think that I will be able to say 'goodbye' to Olympian. I personally think that I am a cynical type of person. Throughout my years of middle school and high school, I have become a cynical person due to the peers around me and also the 'real world' that I have continuously been exposed to throughout my life. To me, leaving Olympian High School would mean a new beginning in my life, a fresh start going into the world that I have been sheltered from all my life.
-Rejiryc Perez
Holden chose to isolate himself because of his somewhat different qualities compared to his peers at his school. Holden wanted to be and individual but on the other hand, he also wanted to 'fit in' at times. I found this very contradicting because at times he would criticize other people in his mind, but then again it was Holden that allowed them to come into his life.
ReplyDeleteAs for graduating from Olympian High school, I think that I will be able to say 'goodbye' to Olympian. I personally think that I am a cynical type of person. Throughout my years of middle school and high school, I have become a cynical person due to the peers around me and also the 'real world' that I have continuously been exposed to throughout my life. To me, leaving Olympian High School would mean a new beginning in my life, a fresh start going into the world that I have been sheltered from all my life.
-Rejiryc Perez
As many of my peers have stated, alienation plays a key role in Holden's life. However, the impact it has on him is rather negative. Throughout the book, we witness various levels of cynical thinking towards his surroundings. Holden does not believe the world around him is ideal, and that the world around him is flawed, rather than admitting to his own. In a sense, he does not want to accept reality. Instead of accepting who he is, he would rather look down on his peers, and explicitly point out their flaws. This then ties into his sense of isolation. He separates himself from others because he believes that they are somehow flawed, and he is better than them. As witnessed in the beginning of the book, he criticizes a peer for not attending the game, when he himself is upstairs alongside him. This then helps prove his mental issues. His pattern of thinking tends to contradict itself. One moment where this is apparent is during his visit to his old teacher. He initially describes the teacher as being "one of the best" in one scene, then the next he is seen harshly criticizing his style of living.
ReplyDeleteTeenagers during this era also tend to isolate themselves from others due to their sense of security. Holden separates himself due to the fact that he feels as if those around him are somehow not worthy of his presence. Now days, kids tend to separate themselves due to their lack of common ground with others. Many new styles have emerged, and some, rather weird. However, people find a way to feel comfortable in these cliques. They are able to find their sense of self among others they are comfortable with, which Holden is yet to do.
I agree with Noah, with the idea that the knit-picking that Holden does regarding the flaws of those around him are what in turn leave him in isolation. Holden sees the world as flawed and is often seeing embracing all things negative rather than what is positive. Holden mentions many contradicting statements, for instance his criticism of the behavior of others though he himself seems to fall into the same actions as they do. Holden's isolation I believe comes from his inability to connect with anything or anyone. He's so set a flawed reality that he cannot notice the good that sits beside him. Holden speaks of an inferiority complex but never one of superiority which I think he himself has and would be able to identify with, he feels as if people are not worthy of his time and otherwise separates. I agree that we kids today separate because of our differences into groups of commonality as well.
DeleteAs far as how I'd say goodbye being that this is my final year as an eagle, I think I would look back on all the things I'd accomplished because it is a big milestone in my life. The leap from high school to college is major so I think for me to reminisce about the simpler days would be in my best interest.
-Jayla Hudson
Holden feeling alienated causes him to just keep to himself and not interact with other people. For example, Holden “ was standing way the hell up on top of Thomsen Hill." (Salinger 5). He just watches the game by himself at the top of the hill instead of being with his peers and enjoying the game with them. When Holden got to New York, he invites Sally Hayes to a date to . After taking a break from ice skating, due to his alienation Holden insults Sally by telling her that “You give me a royal pain in the ass, if you want to know the truth.” (Salinger 173) causing her to leave him. Holden’s alienation is like a double edged sword. For its favorable attributes, it guards him from feeling the same pain when his brother Allie died, being uncomfortable and rejected. The consequences Holden faces from his alienation are feeling lonely and depressed. Throughout the novel notifies us of the numerous things that sadden him, such as being told good luck and witnessing the nuns just having coffee and toast for breakfast while he had bacon and eggs. Even though it seems that Holden attempts to keep to himself, he also strives to socialize with other people, Holden tried to call someone, however, he could not come up with a person he would have liked to call. Furthermore, Holden manages to set up a date with Sally.
ReplyDeleteBeing an upcoming senior, I will say “goodbye” to Olympian by trying to do everything high school has to offer such as the prep assemblies, homecoming, sporting events and of course prom. My goal is to make my senior year the most memorable year of my high school career. I agree with Ryan’s comment about the difficulty of leaving friends who we have become close to. I think it would be hard since we saw our friends almost everyday for three years. Even if it would be challenging, I would cherish the last year I have with my friends and attempt to create more memories with them.
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ReplyDeleteAfter reading the responses of many of my peers, I have come to agree with the idea that Holden feels a sense of alienation and isolation at Pencey Prep. This is most apparent when Holden directly states how he "went over and looked out the window" feeling "so lonesome all of a sudden" (Salinger 62). He even goes far enough by stating how he almost wishes he were dead. After now discovering that he was initially writing from a mental hospital, it now makes more sense to me as to why he would act so extreme and dramatic at some parts in the novel. This arises the question on whether on not Holden is a reliable narrator, since he is mentally unstable and regularly lies "just for the hell of it" (Salinger 95). This fact alone makes me believe that he is unreliable as a narrator, since we as the reader never know when he is telling the truth or not.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Sabrina Sandoval in her post that Holden ironically pushes people away by criticizing them despite feeling isolated. Wouldn't one who feels alone and isolated want to instead make relationships with others to feel welcomed and wanted? Additionally, Holden continues to reminisce about his summer with Jane, as if he wants to reconnect with her, but never actually makes the action to go and see her in spite of getting many opportunities to do so. This makes me believe that Jane has left an impression on the narrator, but I have yet to conclude on whether or not it is positive or negative.
In response to Mr. Rodriguez’s question on how we will say “goodbye” to Olympian, I feel like many of us can relate to how Holden is feeling. Through the rough times in our lives in school, our friends, and our family, we still manage to remember the good memories that we have made more so than the bad ones. For me personally, since I have switched to many different schools throughout my life, much like Holden, I know transitioning from high school to college will not be too hard on me. I plan to make my senior year one of my more memorable years of high school, in order to one day look back at those moments and cherish them.
-Meagan Phillips
From my perspective, Holden response to the alienation between his peers is a clear testament to his overall character. Throughout the novel as the audience is introduced to Salinger's colorful cast in The Catcher in the Rye, we are introduced to them from the perspective of Holden himself. In doing so, Holden seems to make quick judgement of a person, deeming them suitable to his tastes or not. For example, during the introduction of Ackley, Holden explicitly shows distaste in Ackley, noting of "his terrible personality" and that he was "also sort of a nasty guy" (Salinger 26). While Holden is very quick to notice the faults in Ackley's character, what puzzling is in contrast during chapter 7 when Holden looks towards Ackley in his time of need. Looking to justify his actions towards hitting Stradlater, Holden attempts to find solace through Ackley for doing the right thing, going so far as to lie and claim that "I [Holden] was defending your goddam honor. Stradlater said you had a lousy personality" (Salinger 62).
ReplyDeleteFrom this, it all seems that Holden uses this alienation as a sort of "coping mechanism" to allow him to justify his questionably moral decisions. When told he was getting kicked out of Pencey, Holden defended himself believing that because he was alienated from his peers he should not even belong at Pencey in the first play. When Holden punched Stradlater and ended up with a bloody face, Holden used his alienation from Stradlater to justify his actions. All in all this response to alienation speaks for the insecurities of Holden, whom honestly believes that he's been doing the right things and making the right decisions each and every time.
As for leaving Olympian, in my mind I don't feel like when I graduate from Olympian I'd be saying goodbye to Olympian at all. Each and every memory I've made at Olympian I'll take with me to college and my adult life. The skills and lessons I've learned at Olympian as well will continue to be remembered and serve me as I grow up. So in a way when we say goodbye to Olympian a year from now we won't be leaving Olympian for good, as each of us will take a little memento of Olympian wherever we go.
This is my reason for what you describe as Holden's coping mechanism. He is only looking for an ally, and yet in his eyes everyone is going against him. So he lies to everyone, including himself. The first example is when he meets Ernest's mother on the train and Holden introduces himself as Rudolf Schmidt(ch8,Pg80).Another example is the events after Holden was beaten and robbed by the elevator pimp, he immerses himself in his made up reality of taking vengeance on the pimp and getting with Jane(Ch 14. Pg 136).
DeleteIn conclusion, Holden not only looks down on the people around him but he also became a compulsive liar as a result of the sense of alienation he experiences.
I find everyone's thoughts on leaving Olympian very interesting. Most of these comments talk about being able to reminisce on their time at this school as a way of being able to say goodbye. I feel the same way, I can't exactly pinpoint one memory to accurately portray my experiences during high school. To fix this, I'm going to make a lot of them in this upcoming senior year.
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ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteHolden constantly isolates himself yet he blames others for the way he feels and acts. He didn’t apply himself at any of the other prep schools that he attended and even gave the excuse of being expelled at one because he couldn’t live amongst “phonies.” He responds drastically and doesn’t seem to care about his future. In his mind, his alienation isn’t because of his actions or feelings. Instead, people give him no choice to feel the way he does. I believe that Holden struggles with depression or another mental disorder resulting in his isolation. Throughout the book, he brings up the thought of suicide and how others would feel if he was to die. For example, when his sister, Phoebe, asked him what he was happy about, Holden could only think about one of his past classmates that committed suicide. Also, Holden’s feelings of isolation are reflected in his desire to move across the country to live on a ranch and his fascination of the ducks that fly away when the weather changes which can correlate with his need to run away. As a response to his isolation, he calls people that he doesn’t even like and even bought a prostitute to talk to about how he’s feeling. However, on the very last page, Holden says that he gets sad when he tells his story and actually misses them. I believe that Holden realizes that people are not all bad, and he has isolated himself due to his pessimistic attitude. I differ in Holden’s opinion that school is unnecessary and I would never give it up because I didn’t like the people. I’ve been attending Olympian since my freshmen year and time has gone by fast, and it will definitely be different to be out of high school. I’ve made a lot of good memories making a goodbye kind of necessary. Finally, Salinger’s ideas about isolation and post-traumatic stress disorder can be directly seen as he gives an example of the effects of the war. The character D.B., Holden’s brother, was said to stay in his room away from everyone when he returned from the war, and he didn’t really want to talk about it despite his lack of combat experience.
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ReplyDeleteAs previous comments have mentioned, Holden is a prime example of a "misfit." I feel as if he chooses to isolate himself because he does not seem to conform to what is asked of him as evidenced by the multiple schools he has been expelled from. This only comes to show that what is perceived as standard in an education stance may be either impossible or somewhat useless to him. There appears to be some miscommunication between Holden and his parents because their relationship is distant and lacks nurturing. The only person who genuinely cares for Holden is Mr. Spencer and the reason why Holden felt uncomfortable during his tirade and was so eager to leave was because he had never had anyone care about him enough to try to understand his feelings and intentions. When Mr. Spencer asked, "How do you think they'll take the news?", and Holden responds with, "Well... they'll be pretty irritated about it." At that point, it was apparent that his parents have no curiosity as to why their son is flunking and their initial reaction is to become "irritated" and send him to another school. In a sense, Holden seems neglected of love or care from everyone but Mr. Spencer. I feel as if this persona he presents on the surface is to avoid having to deal with phony people and as he matures, will find a better way with coping with a social distinction and hopefully will become more aware of his thought process and the way he chooses to evaluate people.
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of senior year, it will be a difficult goodbye for me. These are the "glory years" but I feel that I have experienced everything that high school has had to offer and moving on to next level education will only enhance all I have retained. Friends will stay close and memories will always be there, but when the day comes, I feel like these four years working toward graduation will all be worth it.
-Camille Taylor
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ReplyDeleteOne scene in which i felt the sense of alienation first was when we the audience was introduced to Ackley. Prior to the introduction of Ackley, Holden reflects on his first impression of the book "Out of Africa". Within the chapter Holden explains how he tried to read while Ackley ventured through his dorm. In addition to this, we are introduced to Stradlater who is characterized by Holden, to be extremely handsome. These two characters whom we are introduced to both come from two different groups which in my opinion is represented in the way in which Holden describes the both of them, the normal populous and the more popular populous. In this case, Holden does not fit into either group, hence the reason as to why I felt chapter 3 indicated to me how Holden felt alienated.
ReplyDeleteAs our high school years comes to an end I feel a sense of goodbye from our school if I am to make an impact in our school. Without being able to make a change within within our school or even leave my mark i will feel incomplete almost as if I was not able to feel that sense of goodbye.
-Devin Wong-Magusara
Alienation is a crucial them to this book. Alienation both protects and harms Holden. I noticed that it protects him by not forming connections with people. This way he will not feel the emotional pain like he did when Allie, Holden’s younger brother died. Holden shields himself from the world, but the problem is he needs human interaction. This is where alienation greatly harms him. It makes Holden lonely and severely depressed. This important theme is seen when he finally reaches to people. However, his instinct to shut down and push people away kicks in. He uses insults to make them angry demonstrating his fear of human interaction. Holden begins a "cycle of self-destruction" that was triggered by his fear of human interaction. His torment for his younger brother’s death causes him to resort to alienation, depression, and loneliness. The baseball glove that he carries around that was once was Allie’s, demonstrates to the readers his pain and emptiness that he feels. I feel as though the death of his brother could have been one cause to his breakdown and him entering a mental facility.
ReplyDelete-Hannah McElmoyl
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ReplyDeleteAs many of my classmates have already stated Holden has chose to alienate himself from the world considering he does not conform to society's norms. He has been faced with rejection which is very evident due to him being kicked out of many schools. One way in which Holden decided to respond to his alienation is by isolating himself while everyone is at the football game. He sits atop Thomsen Hill observing the game as well as the people there. On page 4 Salinger says “I remember around three o’clock that afternoon I was standing way the hell up on top of Thomsen Hill.”
ReplyDeleteWhen first reading the opening chapter of the book I was not aware that Holden was reminiscing these events from a mental institute. After receiving this information and rereading the passage it was made clear. The way I now viewed Holden had changed after having this information and I got answers to things that I wondered about.
Becoming a senior this year is in my opinion going to be fun. My good bye to Olympian would be by ending the year accomplishing all of my high school goals. I will also be making a lot of memories so that when I get older I can think back and honestly say that I had a great high school experience.
-Alexis Gaskin
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ReplyDeleteAs you mentioned in the previous blog post, Holden has a rebellious type character that was not really the norm for teenagers in the 1950's. Because he is different in this manner, it is only right for him to be alienated from most teens his age. You notice this early on with his commentary about his past situation. Instead of being like a regular teen who conformed to the rules and did what they had to do, you learn right away that he was flunking out of Pencey and had absolutely no care for his future. Right from the beginning you learn that Holden is not your regular obedient teenager, and that he is comfortable with that. The theme of Alienation is even seen later when he is in the "Lavender Room" with the three girls that he referred to as morons. These girls loved movie stars and shows at Radio Music City Hall, which did not really fit in with Holden's taste. He makes it fairly clear in this section of the book that he sees these girls as below him in terms of intelligence and in my opinion, I think this further highlights the alienation he feels. Even though these girls may have been actual morons, the negative perspective he has of them is something that we see many times in the book when he deals with others. Holden looks at his alienation from others as a good thing since he seems to see everyone that does not have similar views to his as unintelligent or irritating. Overall, he seems to be pretty confident in his ways.
ReplyDelete-Eric Solorio
I was oblivious to Holden writing from a mental institution in the very beginning. I reread the first page three times to finally understand, and the end helped too. I knew it was a sort of flashback/memory, because of the way he addressed it. But I did not realize the setting since I scurried reading lines. But where I realized it was when he states: "I'll just tell you my about this madman stuff that happened to me around last Christmas just before I got pretty run-down and had to come out here to take it easy." Holden then proceeds to explain how he gets some visits, and that is when it all connected, but I really did not catch it at first. It was a very enticing hook in Salinger's part to start out this way, and the way he indirectly tells us he's in a ward makes it even more clever. Obviously I was intrigued to find out what caused him to be admitted into a place like this, but after a few chapters I figured out why, Holden to me seems like a pessimist who rarely speaks positively on topics and is constantly depressed. You could not go a chapter without the word "depressed" showing up at least 5 times. He was also very lonely and you could tell he seeked out for a companion or anyone to interact with and just talk. He even had the opportunity to lose his virginity to a prostitute but decided to attempt to converse with her. He went up to a piano player and tried to make regular talk with him too but just got pushed away. Holden tried really hard to fit in but he was just not compatible with anyone.
ReplyDeleteI also want to address the goodbye portion of your post. Will I be like Holden and be able to walk away without any problem? Or saying goodbye to any of my friends? I'd like to believe I won't. Leaving will be a bittersweet feeling. I am positive I will be able to say I did not flunk and will not get kicked out, if that were the case,I do not blame Holden for walking straight out.
After finishing the book, I took notice of the abundant of times Holden was alienated. A majority of the time his actions towards not fitting in were not positive steps in his life. Forinstance in chapter six and seven when Stradlater comes back from his date he is irritated at Holden because he couldn't follow the guidelines to the composition. Holden knew the requirements, yet he chose to drift off to an entirely different topic. After a heated feud, which included some violence. Holden then proceeds to sleep in Ackley's room. However once in there, it seems that Holden realizes he is not meant for that school and the decides to leave that night. This action causes Holden to go through a serious of challenges throughout the novel. Holden has a habit throughout the novel of acting before thinking of the consequences. I understand that even in our society many people go through situations were they feel alienated, but their issues should not be solved in the manner that Holden approached his situation.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Mr. Rodriguez's question on how seniors will say "goodbye" to Olympian, I have not taken the time to think about it. I am still in shock that it is my last year of high school and it is all coming to an end. I definitely want to make it a year to remember and challenge myself mentally as I prepare for college. I absolutely do not want to make the choices Holden made his school years. I will enjoy this year and when the time comes, prepare myself to say goodbye to Olympian, my teachers, and most importantly my friends.
Carola Cabral
DeleteHolden responds to alienation through his pessimistic attitude. He comes off as a very negative person and seems to criticize others as a result of being alienated. For example, he ridicules his peers such as Ackley and Stradlater. He criticizes Ackley for his actions and explains that “he had a terrible personality” and that “he was a very peculiar guy”(26, Salinger). Because Holden cannot fit in with the standards around him, he chooses to alienate himself from everyone else, labelling many as “phonies.” I also believe his flunking out of the several prep schools which he attended are all his own fault because he never attempted to create relationships with others. His negative and isolated mindset pulls him further apart from the people around him, but I think that he can only blame himself for the actions he made.
ReplyDeleteI honestly do not really know how I am going to say goodbye to Olympian. I never really thought of it in depth. I believe that it will be sad to part with many peers and teachers that I have met , but I think that I will be ready to move forward into the next chapter of my life. I really want to experience transitioning into adulthood and going out to see the world on my own.
I was not aware that Holden was writing from a mental ward of a hospital when I first started reading this novel. I think that this changes my perspective a little on his character, because now I understand how he feels alienated and why he seems sort of detached from his peers. Although, even if he was writing from a mental hospital, it does not make him an unreliable narrator. I think that novel being expressed from his point of view makes it feel even more truthful because it is his own experience.
-Sarah Solis
As I read the first few chapters of “The Catcher in the Rye” I did tend to realize that Holden alienates himself from anyone he could hold value towards. His family,teachers and peers, throughout the book become relentless victims due to Holden's negativity and unwillingness to give in to society. A stated by some of my other peers I tend to notice that Holden’s alienation towards others is a key concept used throughout the book. For example countless times throughout the novel Holden refers to some men, peers and even the Pencey institute as phonies. Holden twists the ideal of a rich and successful man named after his wing, to a particularly negative experience, recalling he was nothing but a big phony or hot-shot (Salinger 17). Also the question of whether or not Holden is a reliable narrator also comes into play. Knowing that he is coming from a mental hospital and relying himself as the “ most terrific liar you ever saw in your life.” (Salinger 16), makes me doubtful that Holden actually understands the world around him with a clear mind. I come to not trust what Holden says and even though he tries to justify himself, I feel him being in a constant fight against the world.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, in response to Mr.Rodriguez’s question on our “goodbye” to Olympian, I believe that all the memories created in Olympian will integrate with me into the future. Many people in high school experience many situations and I believe they can either consume you or define you. I am planning to take all the skills I have learned and use them to create a bright future for college and the transition into adulthood. I understand Holden’s point of view about collecting mementos of what's left before you leave and also the transitions to constant new surroundings but I also believe that without aspiring towards the future, staying positive and connected to others it brings life to a standstill and that is where Holden is at.
-Caitlin Jensen
Holden's being isolated from his peers was mainly his way of not conforming to the rest of society that he tends to point the flaws of. In Holden's eyes most people are just nuances to him, such as when describing the characteristics of Ackely and when he loses his patience with Stradlater. Even when Holden is with someone he's comfortable with, such as when he was giving his farewell to Mr. Spencer, Holden will begin to bothered by the minor actions Mr. Spencer did. Any minor nuance will tend to drive Holden away from the particular person such as Ackely's acne and Mr. Spencer briefly picking his nose. Holden does attempt to try to fit in but the actions of others tend to drive him away from attempting to be more sociable, such as him remembering his date with Louise Sherman. Holden made a rule that he'll "quit horsing around with girls" (Salinger 82). When he then states that he eventual broke it, he claims his date terrible calling Louise his usual insult, a "phony". While Holden does attempt to associate himself with different people, it usually ends with him criticizing them.
ReplyDeleteWhile I am not very cynical, I won't be too emotional graduating from Olympian next year. While it is somewhat hard for me to leave a place I'm used to going, I tend to realize that it will only be fraction of my time, and the emotions tend to fade away as time goes on. While I am able to say "goodbye" to Olympian, it won't be too emotional to me as I have much more things to look forward in life.
-Daniel R. Diaz
When I started off reading the novel, I could tell that there was something off, or different, about Holden. However as I continued to read I could see that the way he thinks is very peculiar and not predictable at all. One minute he will be talking to us about his friends and what they're going to do for the night, then the next chapter he'll be talking about one character that did not really have any tie to the story at hand. Like in chapter 10 when he just talked about his sister, then went back to the club. I guess you can say Holden seems to be a bit of a scatter brain.
ReplyDeleteIn response to his alienation, Holden reacts very violently. Two instances I could think of is in the beginning when old spencer was talking to Holden about him getting kicked out of Princeton, Holden started to get upset and did not want to hear anything the old man had to say when he was just trying to help. Another time when Holden reacted with anger was when he just jumped at Stradlater because he felt a certain way about Jane.
Now personally, I don't feel a need to say goodbye to OHS. Sure, all the memories and friends I made were great, but fifteen years from now, how much will I remember and how many friends would I still be in touch with? I have always had this type of mind set so I do not seek some sort of "goodbye" like Holden does with Princeton.
Furthermore, in the beginning I had no idea that Holden was writing from a psych ward. Although with knowing that now, I do look at him him and his writing style differently. Considering that he was admitted to a psych ward it just makes sense now when he gets into those moments of breaking off into another subject randomly or thinking out of the blue irrelevant thoughts. Or even when he becomes enraged so fast over little things. Now knowing he is in a psych ward, I half expect it from him.
-Isaiah wilson
Following my completion of this novel, I now realize the constant feeling of alienation that Holden experiences. As he makes his ay throughout Manhattan, it is noticeable that in nearly every conversation, Holden attempts to get someone to listen to him regarding the phoniness of the adult world. However, he is never granted that attention or reciprocation of alike thinking. From his classmates, teachers, taxi drivers, a prostitute, and even nuns, Holden is never given the amount of attention that he wishes. There are multiple times in which he even starts his sentences with "Listen" as if to ensure that his thoughts are heard. Although, there are two cases in the novel in which Holden does feel as if he being listened to. Those include his encounters with Mr. Antonlini and his younger sister Phoebe. However while Mr. Antonlini's actions end quite horrifically, Phoebe's actions result in an important realization for Holden.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the question of will I have a goodbye from Olympian, or will I have a simple bye, I feel that I would have a good one. I feel this is true for the memories I have to hold onto are good ones whereas Holden seemingly has none of such memories. It should also be noted that upon the day of his expulsion, he is the single reason why the school fencing team lost their game. Thus giving him quite the horrific final day at Pencey.
Alienation is in fact the main theme of this whole novel. But I have a different opinion when it comes to certain things for example his attitude and the concept of him being in a mental facility but I will get to that later on.
ReplyDeleteHolden is a teenager just like myself and my fellow peers, individuals on the outside seem to not understand us and view us as very negative and judgmental. well isn't that what my fellow peers are doing to Holden? just like us, the only thing we want is to be heard and to receive a little attention no matter how much we may deny that claim.
Throughout the book the word "Listen" is used profusely mostly to begin a sentence or conversation, showing that all poor Holden wants is someone to listen to what he has to say, even though no one really seems to bother. something I have been able to relate to a few times in my teenage years.
Now when it comes to the subject of the mental institute theory, I comprehend that there are several sections in the book which may point to that but I disagree with the whole theory. seeing how Holden has been smoking, drinking and out in the cold he became ill and needed to be sent to a specialized hospital. and we all know it is not uncommon for a hospital to send its psychologist to troubled patients explaining why our protagonist is talking to a psychologist and why he is allowed visits from outsiders.
-Christian Viscontti
As most of our well peers have asserted the action the protagonist Holden makes is one which makes his situation one of alienation as presented in my first post. also I feel personally this great theme of alienation is one that is seemingly perfect because it helps we teenagers in this abstractly growing dais age because it mainly applies to us all. you see just like Holden felt like someone who is fully not part of this world of excellent and different people from him this is how most students feel because generally it has been seen that in most cases people generally are not mainly open to change and if there isn't any change concerning this aspect of alienation in work places, school, it will be hard for us to establish a world of freedom and excellence this is because people are not given the chance to express themselves and this however creates a room of growing stereotypical situations. The issue of alienation In Holden's case did not just start at a certain chapter we could see that it was mainly through out the story especially in the first chapter when he had a flashback about his schooling. but like I said earlier on I believe most of Holden's info in some cases might be altered because of his mental state.
ReplyDeleteAlso I feel really bad for holden because the way he has accepted his part of being alienated has made him seem so volunable to anything brought and only this but also throught this chapters we could see that he couldn't even have steady lifelihood because he had accepted what was given to him mainly making him to see like he had given up. this helps me to realize that as a student I don't need to accept what people want me to be but that I must create who I want to be. this is one of the reasons that when am saying and biding my goodbyes to Olympian later on in the school year it will help to realize that whatever I choose to do after high school determines if I could be a great person or not and for me one of those decisions is the one of proceeding to college. also to add as I leave high schools the memories and tradegies will all stay day as I embark on a more tasking journey in life.
As many of my peers have already stated, Holden seems to respond to alienation with faulty criticism fueled by anger. When being cast aside or turned down, Holden seems to lose his composure and logic, and even victimizes himself. For example, in chapter 14, Maurice and Sunny barges into his room and demands that he pay the full $10, despite him being told it was only $5. Holden has stated himself that he was "loaded", so he could have easily handed over an extra bill and avoid conflict. Instead, he refuses, and continued to call them crooks and morons. And when they took the money, Holden acts as though he had been shot. He seems to emphasize how he has been affected.
ReplyDeleteTo be quite blunt, I feel as though my graduation would be a joyous occasion. I am the kind of person that looks forward to the future, I am excited to get started on my own life. Of course, I know I may come to regret not cherishing my high school life as much, but right now, in this point in time, I can not wait to finally say my farewells. As such, I feel as though giving my "goodbyes" to Olympian would be an easy feat.
Lastly, the fact that Holden is writing from the mental ward of a hospital does not have a grave affect on my view of him. Since the first few chapters, I have concluded that Holden was rather self-absorbed. He seemed to focus only on his own views and his own thoughts, thus harming his credibility. I have been wary of how he describes others and himself for quite some time. Knowing that he is mentally ill only affirms my view of him, but does not change it in any way.
-Kiara Mendaros
I find Holden's feelings of isolation towards everything in the world pretty logical considering that he sits in an ISOLATED mental ward as he tells his story. The reason that Holden feels such alienation is because he is very aware of everything around him, of all social rituals, hormone-driven feelings, and all the mediocrities around him. He interprets everything and acts in response to it differently, one of the times that stood out the most is when he says "I'm always saying glad to've met you to somebody I'm not at all glad to have met. If you want to stay alive you have to say that stuff tho" (114). The one pattern that stays consistent throughout the book is recognition. In this peculiar instant Holden admits to following the pattern in order to survive; survival is another attribute that characterizes Holden and alienates him because to him, survival is comfort, he does not look for materialistic things much like those who attend school to one day be able to buy a Cadillac, no instead he strives to live alone in a cabin fending off for himself. His thoughts are very peculiar but even though he tells them from a mental institution, they are still trustworthy. Perhaps the reason is because he has an abundance of clarity and impulse, yes he may be in the correct place but not for a lack of coherent thoughts.
ReplyDeleteAs for saying good-bye as our last year of high school approaches, I do not believe that any of us are ready. Much like Holden, I want to be able to say goodbye, to create memories at Olympian High School that I will never forget, perhaps they are to come, perhaps they have already been made, We won't find out until we say goodbye, I believe.
-Rodrigo Blanco
Sometimes I wonder if Holden is aware of his alienation from people; also is it Holden’s ego that causes the alienation, or does he create this strong ego for himself in order to conceal the fact that he is alienated from the rest of his peers. Every time a character in the story tries to confront Holden’s actions, he becomes overly defensive; for example, in Chapter two Mr. Spencer—his history teacher—attempts to give advice to Holden before he leaves the school. Despite the obvious good intensions of Mr. Spencer, Holden still lacks the maturity to appreciate it. When the teacher describes life as being a game, Holden responds positively; however, what he says is the complete opposite of what he thinks, “Game, my ass. If you get on the side where all the hot-shots are, then it’s a game. But if you get on the other side then there’s no game.” Here, it seems that Holden sees himself as being superior to anybody who has a different outlook than him, because to him, clearly he is the one with a better understanding than others. Throughout the conversation he acknowledges that his teacher was trying to help him, but he doesn’t do it so that he can take in the advice, but rather because he pitied him for trying to help him because I don’t think Holden realizes that he had anything wrong with himself.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I do appreciate the sincere thoughts that Holden expresses in parts of the book, like in chapter sixteen when he notices a boy humming “If a body catch a body coming through the rye” it’s a nice short break from Holden’s usual pessimistic perspective. Also I’d like to think that those moments where Holden shows a different, positive side of his thinking, has a deeper meaning; since it’s been established that Holden does have some sort of mental illness I hope that the author uses those moments as a metaphor of people with mental disabilities. In that they don’t act that way all the time, for example if someone suffers with depression the common misconception is that they are always sad, but those individuals are still capable of happy moments and I hope that’s what those moments with Holden represents.
When I first began reading this novel, I felt as if Holden's dramatic actions were due to him being immature. For example, Holden spent days in New York City alone because he did not want to tell his parents honestly that he got expelled from Pencey. I thought that it was immature for Holden to keep information from his parents, however it would not be surprising since Holden is obsessed with childhood and freezing time. However, I began to realize that Holden's dramatic actions are due to his feeling of alienation, and that he did not tell his parents about his expulsion because he felt distant from them. Holden told Mr. Spencer, Mr. Antolini, and Phoebe that he was expelled, all of whom he feels a close relationship with. With all three characters, Holden engages in sincere conversations, however with Mr. Spencer and Mr. Antolini, the encounters end in a somewhat sour tone. With Phoebe, however, Holden is the happiest he has been in the entire novel. This could be due to the fact that Phoebe symbolizes innocence and Mr. Spencer and Mr. Antolini do not.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Holden being in a mental facility does not change my perspective about him. After all, since Holden is in an isolated facility, it is similar to his position during the events of the novel. He feels isolated in and out of the mental facility. Perhaps that is why Holden chooses not to elaborate about his conditions in the facility at the end of the novel. The narrator does not feel a change of environment from the first page to the last.
As an incoming senior, reading this novel made me fear entering the final year of high school. I feel the same way as Holden about growing up. I want to freeze time and stay away from the "phonies" of adulthood. Hopefully, I would have made significant memories at Olympian to "get a goodbye".
I think that Holden's sense of alienation is apparent almost every time he opens his mouth, almost every time he is in public, and about every time he decides to act or respond to something. His thoughts clearly indicate to me he is a troubled boy in a troubled world, and therefore "no one understands him". But, indeed, no one does. I believe that his way of being, and everything he does stems from this sense of wanting to belong, and wanting to be valued, things that Holden has been deprived from. Because of this, he channels his anger through his pessimistic thinking and that affects his behavior.
ReplyDeleteBeing isolated from society, Holden finds it difficult to interact with people in a normal and proper way. This could explain why people are not very fond of him and continue to spread these feelings of being an outcast towards him. In chapter 9, I saw that his feelings of alienation were very notable when he does not want to tell his parents about him leaving Pencey, and when he tells the cab driver that he is "Traveling incognito". I thought this was somewhat self revealing for Holden, because in a way he is accepting that his personality is practically one created from his circumstances rather than his true self that he has lost due to this isolation. I also believe that Phoebe is this reminder of how Holden was before whatever happened to him that caused him to have these psychological problems. I say this because of the innocence that she brings out in him and the because of the way his thoughts shift from negative to positive.
As for me, I think it will be a challenge saying my goodbye to Olympian, as I will not only be saying it to the school, but to my friends, my teachers, and my family and home that is here. I feel that my transition into adulthood will not be easy for me as I often miss things from my childhood and hold so many memories from the past. However, unlike Holden, I do not allow my fear of something to make me have an offensive approach to it.
- Daniela Vargas
DeleteHolden’s feeling of alienation and lack of belonging was a key factor in his inability to truly feel the emotions needed to say goodbye to his school. However, that he managed to think of one revealed that Holden actually cares about such things and really may wish he was “in the mood” for things more often. Throughout the book Holden stresses how a person has to be in the mood for certain actions in order for them to go well. However, he often explains that he cannot do many things due to his mood not being right for it. Thus making this one point where he actually succeeds at achieving that mood because it shows that he is capable of actually reaching such a state and is not simply making excuses for not doing things. In response to your questioning if we can have a memory to look back on as we say goodbye to the school at the end of the year, for me, the answer is yes. I remember many things about making friends, completing assignments, and even completely failing some exams. The memories I will miss the most when I say goodbye though are the memories I have of going through a tough class or a difficult event at home and going to school or to lunch and being able to talk to my friends and act like idiots just forgetting about all the worries I would have had a minute prior.
ReplyDeleteA popular idea that seems to be popular amongst my peers is that Holden is dramatic and overreacts to negative situations and makes them worse. The way I view Holden's situation is that we have to consider that he's a troubled kid. Knowing that he's been in and out of several schools, a constant cynical and negative attitude regarding his surroundings, and traumatic experiences help me understand his overall position leading to his "immature" reactions. Criticism seems to get to Holden's attitude leading him to take actions where it may seem as if he may not care what people think, but he actually does. He seems to alienate himself in a way to avoid that criticism due to his fear or failure. Alienation may be an escape from criticism.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the topic on leaving high school, it will be extremely tough for me to say goodbye to it. I feel as if I've created connections with people that ill miss and it'll be hard to let go. But at the same time I feel as if life is about learning how to let go. I'm scared of saying goodbye, probably like most of us, but it doesn't make sense to stay where we are at. It's funny to see how much nostalgia we can find on social media, seeing how people tend to hold on to the past as their better days. We have to move on in order to find better beginnings, unfortunately.
Since the beginning of the book, Holden acts like he dislikes everyone. When he was at Pencey he criticized everyone, his friends, his teachers, and even his family. He behaves very rude and indifferent with everyone, when anyone tries to approach him and help him in some way, he pushes them away. He thinks that they are either too weird or aren't good enough. The fact that Holden has been kicked out from several schools says very much about him. Maybe he doesn't fit in, but because of his own personality, he is constantly annoyed and is always judging everyone. To conclude this idea, I strongly believe that if Holden feels alienated it is due mainly to his own personality. He is always very grumpy and is never willing to receive help or support from those surrounding him.
ReplyDeleteI don't really know how I would be saying good bye to Olympian this year, I think that with the memories and great friends is what I will be leaving with. I have so many memories since my freshmen year that I can't decide for one to keep forever. There is really good memories and there is also the not so great ones. However, I believe that both type of memories are the ones that have made my Olympian years so great and unforgettable. I will definitely not react like Holden did when he left Pencey, I will miss my high school very much, it is the place where I learned new things, and where I learned to respect and learn from another perspective that was not mine.
When I read that he was writing from the mental ward of a hospital this kind of made me doubt about the seriousness and the credibility of Holden storytelling. I think that when someone is depressed, they don't really have the head to think about something else than what they are going through. So, I believe that Holden is credible because he was telling his story, I don't think that in his situation he was able to think about anything else than the pure reality.
Reading the both the responses of my peers and the novel itself, it is clear that Holden does not hold himself accountable for his own actions and thoughts. This is partially due to the fact that he is older looking back on this as a mentally ill patient. Nevertheless it is evident that Holden deals with life and the alienation he experiences by finding the faults and negative aspects of others and enviornments rather than his own thoughts, words, and actions. This is particularly evident in the scenes where he describes other characters to the readers such as Ackley, who our main character describes as "...a very peculiar guy(pg 22)...and he damn near made you sick if you saw him in the dining room with his mouth full of mashed potatoes and peas or something(pg 23)." The expression of alienation through negativity along with the fact that Holden is retelling this story in the current state that he is in, makes the reader question his credibility and accuracy when divulging details of his life. Upon finding that Holden experienced a break down, my view on the novel and the protagonist have changed the way i precieved the novel and all the events it enatils.
ReplyDeleteUnlike Holden, in order to say goodbye to high school, my goal for this year is to engage myself in every activity possible, while maintaining the highest marks possible for each of my classes. I want my senior year to be the best it can be and i really cannot see myself achieving this without creating several positive memories throughout my last year of high school.
After reading the comments of my peers I do agree that Holden has criticized many people which could explain why he likes to isolate himself. I can understand why he tries to isolate himself, due to the constant trial of switching schools, the pressure to follow society's standards and the stress of finding oneself. Just like any other teenager, Holden judges people and tries to find and compare himself in the flaws of others. When he is annoyed or disturbed by something he tries to hide it and act cooler than the other person. This is seen when Holden is with Ackley. With Ackley he decides to make his own inside joke and calls him "Prince". By doing this Holden is just mocking him and chooses to be pessimistic. By being closed minded, it causes Holden to be alienated from his surroundings and with his careless attitude it contributes to his loneliness.
ReplyDeleteI would want to say goodbye by making the most out of senior year. I would want to set goals and accomplish them and creating memories that will be cherished throughout my future years. In order to do that I would need to be optimistic and engage myself in school activities.
It is evident that alienation silently attacks Holden in many ways throughout the novel. However, Holden does not only become victimized by alienation, but also seeks it for himself. Throughout the course of the initial chapters, the protagonist is fully aware that he shares distinct qualities and beliefs with his friends and acquaintances and for this reason, he essentially feels secluded. As a result, Holden cynically criticizes his friends, such as Ackley and Stradlater. These thoughts and actions serve as a coping mechanism for Holden, as he receives satisfaction from essentially belittling those who share beliefs inconsistent with his. As many of my peers have pointed out, Holden also fosters his own sense of alienation by distancing himself from others at the football game, where he states, "I was standing way the hell up on top of Thomsen Hill" (Salinger 4). He distances himself from others at Pencey Prep and in Manhattan due to the notion that they are all "phonies". Inconsequently, Holden tends to respond negatively to these sensations of alienation; however, it is only fair to say that he, in part, is responsible for his own misfortune.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, I believe Riley and several other of my peers brought up a valid point about the reliability of the narrator himself. Now that it has been confirmed by Mr. Rodriguez that Holden is in fact reflecting on his experiences from a psychiatric institute, it is only reasonable to question the validity of the events that are presented to us as readers. In terms of the initial chapters of the novel, there is no apparent event intense enough to seem to cause Holden to end up in a mental ward; however, as the novel progresses, it is Holden's exhausting mental journey that eventually causes his psychological instability.
In regards to saying "goodbye" to Olympian, I unlike Holden, will find it challenging to move on to a new chapter in life. However one thing Holden and I, as well as many others, do have in common is feeling hesitant when entering adulthood and losing the precious innocence that many of us take for granted.
-Nicole Isabelle
Holden’s way of coping with the feeling of being alienated is to over power people by using his wit and words. He handles his insecurities by ridiculing others such as calling Ackley, “Ackley Kid”, knowing it made him furious. This made Holden feel superior by using his words instead of his strength. Holden is extremely pessimistic without thinking however, when he takes the time to reevaluate his life he always picks up on something good. From the begging of the story I noticed that Holden was different from any other character I’ve read about. He was extremely flippant, hypocritical, indecisive and impulsive. It makes sense to me that he was writing from the mental ward of a hospital. Especially because Holden said, “I could probably tell you what I did after I went home, and how I got sick and all, and what school I’m supposed to go to next fall, after I get out of here, but I don’t feel like it” (Salinger 234). As for leaving Olympian, “Goodbyes” are inevitable. However, I will leave Olympian with many fond memories. The end of high school is just the beginning of the rest of your life.
ReplyDeleteThe short telling of Holden Caulfield’s life is truly heartbreaking. As a sixteen year old he suffers through an immense isolation from any form of social interaction. From watching the most important football game alone to witnessing how his longing life related to a carrousel. In the time of Christmas when people are known to come together and enjoy what the holiday has to offer, Holden finds himself most depressed and lonely without friends nor family. In response Holden becomes bitter and adopts a critical attitude towards the most insignificant details of ones flaws. He critiques others to show that he could carless of exclusion while in rare occasions allowing the reader to catch a glimpse of his true pain through his desire for acceptance and love. Holden tends to act on disconnection in a rather childish manner. For example, when all he received for a goodbye at Pencey was a physical fight with his roommate Stradlater and the disinterest of it from Ackley he chose to leave in an obnoxious way–“sleep tight, ya morons!” Similarly, when Holden proposes to Sally to run away with him she tells him all the realistic steps that have to be accomplished before she could do such a thing. Holden lashes out by getting drunk and later calling Sally to simply tell her he was going to trim the Christmas tree. Although Holden behaves very immature it demonstrates to the reader his desperate feel to gain attention. Despite his mental fatigue we as readers are able to trust Holden’s tellings because he reveals such pain that allows readers to empathize with.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, it is truly incredible to see how far the senior eagles have gone. Being the last year here at Olympian I plan on savoring every experience that will in the future become memories. When graduation comes I will not only take with me these memories but also all my hard work that has been accomplished by the support of family, friends, and teachers. Saying goodbye to my high school years will be bittersweet because although it is a day of goodbyes I know it is yet another step closer to my success.
-Gisselle Gonzalez
As a few of my fellow peers have already stated, Holden isolated himself because he never felt the need to fit into society. From the beginning, Holden had a very hostile attitude towards people, which naturally pushed them away. Because of how often he moved schools and what happened to his younger brother, Allie, I understand why he shuts himself out. Throughout the whole book, Holden criticizes people and often points out many flaws and tries to make him self look like he's the better person. No one ever met his standards and he thought of every one of his peers and most of the people he encountered, as idiots or phonies. Because of this, Holden doesn't find the need to surround himself with "phony" people.
ReplyDeleteAs being a new senior, I want to say goodbye to Olympian by pushing myself to do my very best and shooting for the best grades possible. I am determined to make the most out of my last year of high school and to cherish every moment. The thought of graduating in just a couple of months and having to take on the responsibilities of adulthood scares me, but I am confident that I will reach my goals. I will use this last year to prepare myself for the real world.
-Mikayla Lubong
At the start it seemed like Holden was forcefully isolating himself. By constantly criticizing others, even those close to him, he is pushing himself away from any significant connection. But later by reviewing my peers comments I could see how this was a coping method. Holden mention little of his past, the ones he mentions seems to bring painful memories. Such as his brothers Allie death. By criticizing others he is isolating himself from any potential pain. After re-reading part of passages the view of Holden writing from a potential ward or hospital changed my perspective on things. From it's cynicism and way of coping it reveals some sort of depression. At the time in his flashbacks it seemed that he himself was not aware or wanted to accept this fact.
ReplyDeleteAt the moment saying goodbye to Olympian seems surreal and confusing. Although I know that instead of having a pessimistic view of the future, I will see it as more opportunities that will help me reach my goals
Holden's alienation toward the world is what causes these unwanted character traits. Holden expressing his feelings towards "alienation" through the criticism and judgement of other people. Holden emphasizes the negative aspects of people, adopting the persona of the bold teenager that is seen today.
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 9 the narrator states, "So I ended up not calling anybody. I came out of the booth, after about twenty minutes or so, and got my bags and walked over to that tunnel where the cabs are and got a cab." Holden says this casually, trying not to show that he is lonely. This passage is an example of Holden’s isolation. Holden wanted to call somebody, but he passed on every single person he could think of, because he couldn’t help but think of a reason not to call them – this shows his feeling of disconnection from society.
In the beginning it foreshadows that Holden is telling his story from a mental ward where he flashbacks on several moments of his life. This affects my perspective on his character and why he wants to be alone. He isolates himself because of the things he's been through and he wants to save himself from the judgement where not talking to anyone will make him feel content in a way.
-Audrey Dizon
After considering the points my peers have made prior to my post, I have to agree with what has been said. Because Holden is very cynical in the way that he looks at the world, I feel as though he has developed a type of superiority complex where though he does not believe himself to be the perfect person and he definitely holds a few people to be better than himself (ie. he considers his sister Phoebe to be both smarter than he is and a better person than most others he knows), he tends to highlight only the negative characteristics of everyone around him. And even though he converses with many people during his wandering in New York, from the hotel, the club, the bar, etc. he could not connect with any of them. Whether it is a conscious decision or a reflex he has developed over the years of constantly moving around, Holden not only pushes people away, but also separates himself from any connection he has then potential to develop. He gravitates towards isolation no matter what he does. This can be seen throughout the novel, from his standing on a hill away from the football game where everyone at school was to his ordering a prostitute only to watch her leave soon after.
ReplyDeleteI do have to disagree on some accounts about his mental illness, however, because I do not think it makes him an unreliable narrator. I feel as though Holden is being as honest as he possibly can be to himself, and whether or not it is the whole truth, it is the truth we learn. We see the world through Holden's eyes - all the "phonies," the slobs, the people he deems not quite good enough to associate himself with - exactly how he wants us to see it, and since this story focuses on what is happening to him, I think that is what he should be doing.
-Sophia Dugan
ReplyDeleteThe very first chapter of the novel there are two highly valuable things about Holden revealed the first is that he is watching a football game alone away from the field where everyone else is and second that he is narrating the novel while in a mental institution. I believe both factors have to do with one of the many themes in the novel being alienation. As a teenager it is difficult to find your place especially in high school where everyone is so diverse and finding friends or some sort of support system is certainly burdensome. Especially, when moving from school to school it must be challenging for Holden finding his comfort zone. As previously stated by my peers, Holden reacts to his alienation by judging and classifying others as phonies. In my opinion Holden is quite harsh he acts in a way that makes others seem so foul and indecent however he is human too and should not react in that matter. Throughout the novel it is evident that alienation only deepens his internal pain and causes him to be more confused with life. Although he feels alone, Holden does have not a lot but some certainly some people who care him for instance Phoebe. Holden chooses to feel alienated from the rest only because he himself does not know what he wants to do with his life, he is simply lost.
Leaving Olympian and entering adulthood is certainly intimidating and overwhelming and similarly to Holden I fear that I will be alienated myself.
-Natalie Aguilar
Without any prior knowledge to the book before, I probably wouldn’t have guessed so, but since knowing that one major theme was isolation, I made the assumption that he was being rehabilitated somewhere. Normally, I wouldn’t trust as much what a mentally-ill patient had to offer on the account that their accounts of certain memories may be all jumbled up. Although I feel that certain circumstances arise when it is okay to do so. In the case of Caulfield, I would be okay with trusting his personal accounts because he was depressed, although very serious I do not see how it would affect his memories. It wasn’t like he had dementia, although it would make sense that his memories are depressing altogether as he remembers them rather than happy, if that, at all. I can somewhat see the connection between the author of the book having to do with the way the book is written. Obviously, some of the content was based on the authors own feeling of isolation (probably when he was in the mental ward) and this continued to play a major role in the protagonist’s life. In a way, Caulfield relates to the author in the sense that both were isolated, either by choice or not, and were eventually checked in to a mental ward. The events that took place between 1945 and 46 can be seen as depressing, especially for someone who had first-hand accounts. Although Holden had no relation to this, at least none mentioned, he is dealing with depression of his own that was brought on by his self-infliction, that is to say that he chose to be apart from everyone else.
ReplyDelete-Antonio Robledo
I did not realize that Holden was writing from a mental institution until he states it in the end of the book. Now, addressing Holden's alienation from others, I believe that the death of Allie plays a major part in his overall negativity and cynical view of the world. At a young age, Holden experienced something that deeply affected him, scarred him emotionally and mentally. He even mentions that he punched in all of the windows in his garage, and had to see a Psychoanalyst. Now, while reading the book, the reader sees that Holden is pushing back those memories in a way, claiming that they do not affect him. We also see Holden not wanting to become close friends with anybody. My interpretation of this is that Holden is too afraid to get close to anybody anymore, because he fears that he will lose them as he did Allie. At such a young age, having lost a family member who was relatively close in age with him made Holden see that the world is not the warm and safe place our youth tends to make us believe it is. He realized that the world is a dark place with mercy for no one, and continues to view his surroundings as such. He claims that everybody is a “phony”, and that he wants nothing to do with being a “phony”. He barely tolerates the fact that his older brother is a screenwriter in Hollywood, which according to Holden, is the epitome of “Phony”. Holden also views other people in a very negative light, emphasizing their flaws and finding any reason at all not to like them. As I said earlier, Holden does not want to become close to anybody in the fear that he might lose them. Even so, he needs company. That is why we see him trying to call many people that he doesn’t know very well to spend time with him in the depressing span of the weekend after he is kicked out of Pencey,
ReplyDeleteXavier Sanchez
It seems to me that Holden believes that he is purposely excluded from and victimized by the world. He mentions to Mr. Spencer that he feels that he is isolated on the "other side" of life. Holden uses isolation to protect himself from society and even as proof that he is better than everyone else. For example, his hunting hat displays him attempting to isolate himself through his uniqueness. Holdens bitterness prevents him from fixing or finding the source of his pain. He does not seems to address his emotions much at all. Although he is truly dependent on his alienation, it is ultimately what causes his pain and suffering.
ReplyDelete-Joseph Liang
I agree with my fellow peers in that Holden chooses to keep his ideas and emotions to himself. Like Jered Relopez mentions, “For example, he is failed all his classes but one, he did not attend the football game, and he is friends with a teacher. Furthermore, the part where he talks about him leaving all the fencing equipment behind shows that he does not quite fit along with his peers.” It is obvious that Holden responds to incidents in a different manner than most people. At certain points of Novel, it seems that Holden is almost choosing to isolate himself from society, as mentioned by Jassin Reyes. As for Mr. Rodriguez’s question, I believe saying goodbye to Olympian will be very painful. These past couple of years have been some of the most memorable years of my life. I plan to make the most of my Senior year by continuing to perform at my very best and enjoy the student-led functions. My ultimate goal will be to make the most out of this final year in highschool.
ReplyDelete-Kyle Elecanal
After Allie died, Holden became increasingly isolated from other people. We know that Holden is a hypocrite because he is what he hates -a phony. But did anyone take into account that this is also crucial reason as to why he is such a recluse?
ReplyDeleteThere are many reasons behind social rejection, but they can be classified into 4 main groups: when people may interfere with a group's goals; when individuals pose a danger or threat; when extra people are an unnecessary addition in regards to completing a task; and when people put themselves into a state of rejection due to painful rejection. For this instance, Holden puts himself into a state of rejection due to painful projection. But what exactly does this mean? Rejection due to painful projection is when a person sees their flaws reflected in someone else, and disowns these vulnerabilities by rejecting those other people because it is easier to disown our vulnerabilities in another person, than it is to face them in ourselves. So essentially, this is exactly how Holden responds to "phonies." Holden's vulnerability is that he himself is a phony, and he disowns this flaw by rejecting other phonies such as himself. Due to his rejection of others, this also leaves him in alienation, which in a way scares him, because although he is afraid to make social connections due to the fact that he doesn't want to feel anything if the connection breaks, he's also a little terrified that because he doesn't make connections, he will regret that decision and feels that he may also be easily forgotten if he were to leave in some way.
In regards to entering our senior year and "getting a goodbye," I think that although we're all pretty eager to get out of here, we might struggle to cut the tether that is left of our childhood and accept that our lives will drastically change forever. To "get a goodbye" with just a memory would not be possible for me, but rather a collection of memories, experiences, struggles, changes, growth -a collection of everything we've gotten from our time here. Being at Olympian these last few years was no walk in the park. Difficuties arose with every twist and turn whether it was because of common core ruining everything we learned about how to do math before, or a rough patch with a close friend. There were good days, and there were bad. But to really say goodbye I think that we will have to accept both. We cannot change what has happened, but we can choose learn from it. Rather than having to choose between Holden's two different goodbyes that both result in sadness, we will make our own goodbyes and cling on to the memories, both good and bad, that have made us who we are today and can help us to grow into even better people in the future.
DeleteIn the beginning you can see alienation is going to be a major theme when Holden is watching the football game from the hill because he doesn’t want to sit in the stands and face the other students, due to him forgetting the fencing equipment and he fears his peers will ignore him. And also when he’s narrating the story from a mental institution, which I wouldn’t have thought about him being in. His hostile attitude comes from not being able to find his comfort zone since he had moved schools many times, yet he deals with trying to fit into society by picking out others flaws to make him seem more superior than them because he doesn’t want to hang out with “phonies”, as well as to gain attention that he’s so desperate for. Holden has definitely opened up to the readers more because now we can see why he alienates himself because he is so closed-minded on his surroundings and his loneliness.
ReplyDeleteI want to say goodbye to high school by making the most out of senior year with all of our activities that we have planned, and setting goals for myself to accomplish throughout the year before I start adulthood. I want to leave Olympian knowing I spent my 4 years as a student with great knowledge and memories that I will cherish forever. Although saying goodbye is going to be really hard, it’s another big step in life that I know is going to have its ups and downs and I will push through it with my family and friends supporting me in my decisions.
-Sierra Masi
After reading some of the comments above from my peers, I do agree that Holden responds to alienation with cynicism. One of the first things that I realized about Holden was his characteristics. Holden seems to criticize many people, and knowing that he had constantly moved schools due to his poor academics in school, I believe he shows this behavior to clearly make himself look better. As an example of his criticism, he always referred his dorm mate, Stradlater, and his neighbor, Ackley, as idiots or as slobs. Also Holden tends to isolate himself from many people. I believe he isolates himself from others because of what happened to his younger brother Allie. He went through alot of pain, and also hurt his hand being furious. I can personally relate to Holden in a way because I used to isolate myself from others when I lost my bestfriend last summer. His characteristics show that he is trying to find his self but is having difficulties with all his past memories.
ReplyDeleteAnswering the question that Mr. Rodriguez asked about being a new senior, I want to say good bye by making the most out of senior year. I would want to make amazing memories and surround myself with positive vibes. I would push myself to do my very best and accomplish my goals I have set. Everything that I will learn this year, I will use to help me prepare for the real world.
Holden feels very alienated among his peers at Pencey and he reacts to this alienation negatively. He copes with the feeling of isolation by mistreating his classmates and calling them "phony" or "moron". Holden even engaged in a fight with Stradlater about his childhood friend Jane and went on to criticize Stradlater's actions of seducing girls. He is clearly emotionally triggered by the event and channeled his inner conflicts through fighting. He almost never has any positive commentary on his peers and always criticizes them harshly for everything. This is how Holden manages his feeling of alienation that has led to his expulsion at Pencey.
ReplyDeleteDespite the great deal of bitterness in Holden's heart, there is a speck of sensitivity in him that I discussed in my previous post. Although he is foul-mouthed and cynical, Holden felt somber about good-byes. He uttered that he is not a great fan of good-byes whether they are good or bad. The innocence and sensitivity that he displayed in that section of the novel was delicate. It was a stark contrast with the persona that he has put up throughout the novel.
Upon reading further, it became clear that Holden is in a mental ward of a hospital. His narration was directed to a psychiatrist and not us. That was his audience. It seems as if he is narrating the events in his life that has led him to the mental ward and is evaluation how such events affected him as a person.
To answer the question of how I will be saying good-bye to Olympian and my peers, I doubt that it will be a grand gesture nor a long lasting memory. I'd like for it to be short and simple enough for me to reminisce and feel nostalgic.
Marie Manipud
Despite the fact that during one's teenage years one tends to feel the most alienated, something that my peers have mentioned also plays an important role in Holden's need to isolate himself. Having lost someone so close to him must have impacted in such a way that changed his view of the world. As Xavier Sanchez mentioned, the world that he was perhaps shown at an early age fell apart when he experienced loss. He not only refuses to participate in common activities, but he refuses to relate himself to anyone around him with a few exceptions. In my opinion, any narrator speaking from an extended flashback is unreliable because at the end of his journey he was bound to make realizations that he didnt make in the journey itself. Some things mentioned may not be exactly as hey happened but are rather distorted by the big event that led to his stay at a mental hospital. For instance, even though Stradlater wasnt one of his closest friends, nothing justified him trying to fight him. It's these very wreckless actions that isolate him even more and get him expelled. I dont beleive Holden is a very reliable narrator and for this reason it is very difficult to really try to understand his character.
ReplyDeleteAlienation is a constant theme throughout the Catcher in the Rye. Teenage years is often a "weird" time for a person. This is when a person is now exiting their time of adolescence and entering the world of adulthood, full of decisions and stress. Teenagers often find this time in their life to differentiate themselves with everyone else in order their "identity" in the world. This often leads to the teenager looking for ways to fit into a whole new society where they do not feel at all accepted into at first. We see Holden Caulfield, the protagonist of the story, in situations that no ordinary 16 year old should be in. These certain situations Holden finds himself into often leads him to be alienated from society and throughout every chapter of the book we see Holden losing a grip of not only the people in his life but also his humanity.
ReplyDeleteI find Holden to always point out the worst in people giving him a reason as to why he should not let them into his life. Whether it is his teacher Mr. Spencer and his "goddamn lectures" or Ackley Kid with his "goddamn acne," it is as if Holden prejudges a person before he even takes the time to get to know them. We see Holden's judgmental prowess mostly before we are introduced to a character himself, usually describing the persons outward features in great detail before even talking about their personality. This technique that Salinger uses is indeed very methodical as it points out how many of us like to "pre-judge" a person before we even get to know them, and even when we do find the time to talk to them, our actions are already determined by our initial reaction to their appearance. We see this in the case of Ackley when he is first introduced. We see Ackley brushing his "lousy teeth" as Holden puts it before he even gets to the part about his "terrible personality."
I believe a lot of alienation towards Holden comes with the fact that he always pre-judges a situation before even considering the unimaginable. I think as seniors it is important for us to not judge a situation or an individual; as we see from this book, it can have consequences to our interaction with everyone. I believe in order for a senior year to go perfectly well, we need to get over the hump of not trying so hard to "fit in" but instead look at the small things in life as a blessing. We see Holden at the end finally finding peace with himself as he watches his sister ride the Merry-go-round. If we ever take the time to stop and look around and see life as it is, we would not be so worried to judge what may come to ruin us.
Whether or not Holden is writing from a mental ward, his account should still be taken into consideration as his story is very applicable to a normal teenager's life. Even if it is true, Holden still recounts that major turning point in his life after Pencey which should be analyzed by his audience or us the "psychoanalyst."
-Nathan Malicdem
After reading most of the comments mentioned by my classmates, I have to agree with several of them with the conclusion that Holden Caulfield’s behavior concerning preferred coping mechanisms against the responses of alienation and adversity. It is frequently mentioned throughout the novel that that even with a strong grade point average, the protagonist himself still views himself at a higher standard than his classmates in what was later on in then novel known as “street smarts”. Over the time on the novel, there is evidence of repeated criticism in theater and cinema even in culture. Throughout the novel they are referred to as “snobby” and fake, which can show how people act with others in a false way only with the hopes to impress other people. These similar actions are seen in both of his siblings which include his little sister Phoebe and his older brother with their appreciation of literature and even clothing. This is why I believe that Holden is only capable to express himself clearly with his brother and sister instead of with others that process different perspective of things. When being exposed to ideas different from what he thought of, he simply walks away and criticizes them with their “snobby” ideas. These actions are what causes for the character to become isolated from the world and from people that do not share the same perspective as him.
ReplyDelete-Diego Arriola
As my peers have mentioned, Holden acts just as any other teenager in this day and age would, which we see it as normal and society accepts it. However the book is set in a completely different time period where they do not complain and just accept their life. Since he is so different from the rest he has the sense that he is the only one that does not fit into society or is an outcast. He even feels alienated from his family. He directly points it out when he says that he is the dumber sibling out of all of them. He mentions many times in a chapter that Allie was the smartest of all the siblings. With Phoebe she was very smart and mature for her age and as for D.B he is a writer who is becoming successful in Hollywood. Holden does not alienate himself from Phoebe but he does with D.B. He feels that since D.B. had become a part of society that is successful, he calls him a phony for fitting in. Throughout the book as many have also pointed out, Holden calls many other characters “phony” because they all are on the same path and are somewhat joining together to be part of society. When he has the sense that he is alienated from the people around him he becomes obnoxious and rude. An example would be with Ackley and Stradlater. Ackley is described as slow, annoying, unattractive, and a loner. While Stradlater is described as an insensitive ladies man that does not seem to have respect for others. Holden makes them out to be this way because they are not like him, they are not flunking out of school and may seem to have a bright future ahead. Even though we do not have another point of view to see if Holden’s accusations are correct about Ackley and Stradlater, they are described in a way that no one wants to be them. Then as for the question about how I will say “good bye” to Olympian next year, I will achieve my goal to graduate and create memories with friends that I will cherish. Personally there will not be just one memory that will be my good bye; it would be more of a compilation of memories throughout my whole high school experience. -Eileen Gutierrez
ReplyDeleteIn addition to Holden's cynicism and rebellious attitude established at the beginning of the novel, it seems that he also has trouble fitting in with the people around him. As my peers have mentioned, Holden is always judging the other characters throughout the story. This is especially true for, as Eileen said, people who fit more into society, which Holden calls "phony". I think that Holden deals with alienation by internally dismissing almost anyone around him who he automatically does not like. In a way, he is judging books by their cover. Holden seems to have a dislike for society in general, and by him flunking school simply because he does not like the people there, I feel like he is running away from his problems. As mentioned by my peers, I feel like Holden sees himself as above other people. Holden always finds something negative in other people and again, is always criticizing them for insignificant things, as if he is any better than the rest of them. For Holden, this may be a way of coping with his own securities, similar to how many bullies cope with their own insecurities by pointing out everyone else's.
ReplyDeleteBecause the Holden who is narrating was in a mental ward, I don't think it would be too far fetched to suggest that the people around him were not as bad as he thought they were. He may suffer from some mental problems, which means he most likely is not a reliable narrator. He might have exaggerated situations and people when looking back on his life, which in my experience, is something that people tend to do.
In regards to "saying goodbye" to Olympian, I think that I will not have a set memory or way of saying goodbye to my high school life. Rather, I will deal with graduation as it goes, as if they were just normal days of my life, and then frequently look back on my high school life, regretting that I hadn't enjoyed and savored it more. I may be more of a cynic when it comes to situations like these.
Emily Chan
During adolescence one may be feel the most alienated from everyone else. This is no different with Holdem as he feels alienated from his peers. For this reason, he reacts by starting to judge them by making abrupt comments and attempts to get laughs out of them such as Ackley and Stardlater. This can also be noticed that he reacts to a greater extent when mentioning his brother D.B, as he even mentions that he is out in Hollywood working as prostitute, but in reality he is a screen writer.
ReplyDeleteWhen I first read the first sentence in the novel, I did get a feeling that holdem was previously talking to someone. Appearently that someone was very interesteed about his life, which he or she is able to get Holdem to tell them his story. There are a few clues that can notify us that he is currently in a mental facility, where he says "I'll just tell you about this madman stuff".
In regards to saying goodbye to high school, it is going to be a tough "goodbye" since I have spent four years attending there. As well I tried to take my time in high school and making the most out of it. There is still some goals that I would like to accomplish before leaving. that can be considered as my "goodbye"
-Jorge Tejeda
Note that this theme of "alienation", applies to numerous amounts of scenarios throughout this novel. Holden feels as though he does not fit into the society he is in. He constantly makes accusations that people are "phonies", only because he cant relate to his peers. While reading, I made observations that had to do with Holden mentioning his older brother, who is a successful writer that lives in Hollywood. This led me to believe that he envies his older brother and his success. I scense jealousy, but Holden may have indifferent feelings regarding his brothers success.
ReplyDeletewhile reading the beginning of this novel, I analyzed Holdens dialogue and could easily discover that he is somewhat nostalgic referring to old memories of playing football with friends. It was also easy to pick up that Holden may have mental problems due to him sharing personal information about being a "madman".
Certainly saying good-bye to high school will be a sad moment for me, but unlike Holden, i am one who is more optimistic and excited for my future plans. However, before leaving, I plan on reaching all of my goals and being satisfied with my academic performances. Then I would be ready to say good-bye.
Holden's feeling of alienation stems from a multitude of factors, such as his depression and his disdain for adulthood and the impending "phonieness" that goes along with it. The fact that he attends boarding schools where he is isolated from his family justifies his constant dropping out of schools, perhaps as a cry for attention. In his conversation with Spencer, prior to vacating Pencey, Holden discusses how "the game" of life is only entertaining if you are on the side with all the "hot-shots," and he clearly says that he is on "the other side." Holden admits to his loneliness and victimizes himself in a world in which he does not belong.
ReplyDeleteAs I think ahead, I do not think leaving Olympian will be such a daunting task and TV shows, movies, and media makes it out to be. Like Holden, I will most likely reminisce about simpler times when looking back at my life, and that is probably one of the main reasons why I will miss it.
2) The dichotomy that Holden Caulfield represents between that of a teenager and the world at large is at the core of the larger theme of alienation. That is to say, that as Holden is pushed more and more into accepting his role; to become a simple cog in the otherworldly machine that is adulthood, along with his constant rejection of these ideas and the blind following of his peers into accepting this predestined role results in Holden becoming separated intellectually from all the people in his age group. This gigantic chasm between the ideals of all the people surrounding him, and the self-inflated notion of grandeur are the fuel that fires the melodrama behind all of Holden’s actions. For example, his favorite adjective to use for one and all people is to call them a “phony” therein allowing for the extrapolation that he views everybody as hollowed out version of themselves that are too stupid to realize that society has forced out everything that can make a person special. Holden’s dramatic flair also shows in the fact that when forced out of yet another prep school he decides to run to New York City without telling anyone, a very dangerous and rash plan that underlines the feeling of blasé and apathy that plague Holden’s narration. This is especially exacerbated by the fact that Holden is locked up in a mental institute while retelling his story to the reader and manages to maintain a consistent narrative voice throughout the whole story.
ReplyDeleteFor the most part, as annoying as Holden’s constant whining is in the novel I have to agree with some of the sentiments that he pontificates. I for one can’t wait to leave high school, often likening graduation to the end of a prison sentence, and perhaps that’s simply the romantic in me but the forward passage of time and all the things that are left to be uncovered appeal more to me than the present, at least high school fails to dazzle me with is shine. And while I look eagerly towards the future and all the possibilities that are waiting to be uncovered I can’t help but treasure some of the friendships and a small cache of memories that are only for me.
To completely understand why Holden feels alienated we have to understand the context in the novel. As explained in teh previous blog post, the novel takes place in the 1950's where most teenagers acted very properly. However for Holden he is sort of precedent for a rebellious teen, something that has never really been seen in that era, he is one of the forerunners for his "kind." An example of this is how Holden has trouble with affiliating and doing well in prep schools for all these kids represent the model teenager he is set off in his own path separate from the majority which explains his sense of alienation.
ReplyDeleteFor me, I am unsure whether I will or how I will say goodbye to Olympian. I assume I would make a formal goodbye to friends and faculty when the time comes and I will just simply accept that this chapter of my life is over and simply move on to the next.
He is different from other teenagers because he does not want to grow up. Most teenagers want to grow up so quick, they forget to live their youth, but Holden, on the other hand is different. He wants his innocence to stay forever, or for as long as he wants. He likes to keep to himself because he thinks he does not belong, thus the idea of alienation.
ReplyDeleteI personally do not like goodbyes, in fact, i despise them. People say a goodbye means another hello, but no one talks about how painful a goodbye is, all people talk about is how sweet a new beginning is. No one really talks about pain, and if people do talk about it, they shrug it off, or they see you as a masochist. Everybody focuses on the positives but very few acknowledges the negatives; balance is key, isn't it?
- Jemima Subaran
Holden begins the novel isolating himself from his family, specifically his brother D.B. who has just made it big in Hollywood. Holden then precedes to isolate himself from schools as he is notorious for getting kicked out of. Despite getting kicked out, he continues to tread on and attend a new school. Holden's actions show that he hasn't lost hope in himself, that he wants to try to fit in, even though he cannot. His behavior differs from his actions in the sense that he calls everyone a fake and tries to act tough. His behavior masks his true identity, he often gives the reader a side note, but does not follow it. For example he claimed that he would beat up Stradlater, but did not defend himself when Stradlater was hurting him. Knowing that Holden is in a mental institution does not change my perception of him, rather it changes how I see him in his story. I now understand more clearly that Holden was not in the right mindset to function clearly, and because of that I take pity on him.
ReplyDelete-Isabella Wolf
Holden Caulfield is alienated through the story, however he is being alienated for a reason. Holden is alienated in the society he lives in, but this is due to having a very antisocial attitude. This attitude is mostly being caused by the alienation of his peers, leading to the reinforcement of his alienation in a vicious cycle.He is also ostracized because he does not fit in his society, as he acts like a member of our society. This fact also lends to his alienation.
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