Greetings:
First, so what are we to make of the
following references to age and growing up that Holden Calufield makes in the
first 50 pages of Catcher in the Rye? Tell me what you think:
On page 2 he says of Pencey Prep school "Since 1898
we have been melding boys into splendid, clear-thinking young men."
On page 9 he says..." I am quite young for my age..."
"...sometimes I act like I'm about thirteen..."
"I'm six foot two and a half and have gray hair."
"..I sometimes act like I'm twelve."
"I get bored sometimes when people tell me to act my
age."
"Sometimes I act a lot older than I am--I really do--but
people never notice it."
On page 25 he says..."he never missed a chance to let you
know you were sixteen and he was eighteen."
On page 45 he says "I told him to go wash his own moron
face--which was a pretty childish thing to say."
Second,
Holden Caulfield has been kicked out of four prep schools. Are all of you
familiar with the concept of prep schools? The country's oldest prep
schools are located on the East Coast--mainly in New England. They are
boarding schools, where students live in dorms, not like our public
schools. Some of the more famous prep schools are Choate, Exeter
Academy, and Andover. Back in the old days only rich white kids attended
these schools. George Bush attended Andover. President Kennedy attended Choate (I believe). President Obama, on the other
hand, attended the top prep school in Hawaii--Punaho--though it's not a
boarding school--but it's a very preppy-type school. Back in the old
days, kids at these prep schools had the inside track to being admitted to
Ivy League schools like Harvard and Yale. My college freshman roommate was a
"preppy" who had attended the Taft School in Connecticut. He was very
preppy-like--he wore khaki pants, a Lacoste shirt, and penny loafers
or boat shoes--that was the typical set of clothes for preppies back
then. In the 1980's there was a famous satirical book called the
Preppy handbook--it gave instructions on how to dress and act like a
preppy. I've posed a couple preppy associated sites in the right hand
margin for you to conduct research on preppy-dom. Back in the old days prep
schools (and still true today) were associated with tradition, a quality
education, money, power, and influence. So what does this all have to do
with Catcher in the Rye?
I feel like all of us can relate to Holden in this sense, that sometimes we can act childish and sometimes we can act very mature. As a teenager, it’s difficult being straddled between adult and child. The transition from boy to man for Holden in particular has been abrupt and sudden given his emotionally scarring past and admission into a mental institution. His thoughts on his age and how he acts are self-contradictory. I think many teenagers can be self-contradictory when it comes to our age and level of maturity. "Sometimes I act a lot older than I am--I really do--but people never notice it." and "I told him to go wash his own moron face--which was a pretty childish thing to say." are two statements that Holden contradicts himself on. I think there are many things that Holden does that are self-contradictory but age is a very prominent theme.
ReplyDeleteAs we all know, Holden Caulfield is the epitome of the rebellious teenager. Perhaps Holden’s rebellious attitude towards these affluent prep schools are a way of Salinger saying that these prep schools are pretentious and overrated. That Holden turning his back on such a huge symbol of wealth and power is representative of the shift from conformity to rebellion in the 1950’s. The whole idea of being preppy seems very perfectionist and Holden dissolves every aspect of that. He is not perfect at all. Holden is representative of a new culture, one that defies tradition in a sense that gives rise to individuality and imperfection in youth.
-Abegail Caraulia
I agree with Abegail's statement. Holden is out of place at Pencey Prep. He was academically insufficient and unwilling to communicate with his peers. Holden could not meet the high standards expected at Pencey. When one looks at his maturity, one can see that Holden was just not at the emotional level to deal with school. He was expected to become this perfect, preppy adult, but he has too many flaws to reach this status. He cannot conform to the standards of a teenager from the 1950s. He is too immature to be a part of this society.
DeleteHolden is also against the preppy society in general. He finds the display of wealth annoying and the phony. He does not manage his money properly, spending several dollars in a short span of time. He is expected to act orderly and mature like a typical preppy teenager, but he just does not want to (and, at times, cannot). Even though he is a part of the upper class, it is clear that he is against what the people in the upper class do.
-Maxwell Bauer
Holden admits that he’s failed all of his classes but one at his current school, meaning that he is aware of his lack of academic success. As a whole, Holden is portrayed as if he does not belong to the prep schools at that time. He has been shown to not be mature enough for these type of schools, as evidenced by the conflicts he is constantly facing with his roommates as well as his peculiar judgment of others. Because the story is told in first person point of view, we readers are aware of Holden’s thoughts and can infer, based on his observations on things and people, that he has not yet reached the level of maturity that is expected of someone his age.
DeleteHolden's references to age are very contradictory in how he basically calls himself a person who acts both childish and old for his age. I actually very much like that Holden does this because it allows me to connect with him as fellow teenager. Similar to Holden, I can act extremely childish in certain situations, and act contrastingly mature in other moments. In another light, I feel that this is his own way of being independent and choosing his own life. He emphasizes the differences of his actions and that of the typical teenager of his age. He seems to be taking his own approach towards how he grows up by revealing the things he does differently in the regards to that of the usual people of his age.
ReplyDeleteHolden makes me think of counterculture. He strays from typical behavior of other teenagers, especially from that of one in a prep school. The idea of prep schools is portrayed in this quote, "Since 1898 we have been melding boys into splendid, clear-thinking young men." However, Holden points out soon after that he considers this phrase garbage and holds his own ideas. Holden acts differently from that of the other preppy students and acts rebellious which is also most likely the reason he's been kicked out so many times. Holden gives a new spin to "preppy" and reveals him to be a unique individual who contrasts the idea of prep school student. Holden is in my opinion a huge representative of today's teenager and the rebellious nature that teens hold today.
-Andrew Son
It is obvious that the references to Caulfield's age reveal that he acts both younger and older than is age. In this way I believe it makes him more reliable of a narrator because he acknowledges that at times he can be childish and at other times he can act like an adult. Overall, I feel that this makes Caulfield more relatable because as a teenager, I can relate to Caulfield because I handle situations differently. At times I can be mature about something and at other times, the solution I think of is childish. In this manner I believe that the references to age reveal more about Caulfield and make him more relatable to the readers.
ReplyDeleteWhen addressing the idea of prep-schools I see Caulfield as some type of rebel. His rebelliousness is shown from the very beginning when he decides not to attend the last football game he will ever be able to attend at Pencey in the first chapter. As previously mentioned by Andrew Son, Caulfield represents this "counterculture". During this time, especially in the setting Caulfield is in (Manhattan), the prep-school mentality was wide spread. However, Caulfield's rebellious nature contrasts the more known "preppy" culture. In this way the the prep-school mentality functions as a feature that helps to define the narrator and make him more relatable to modern teens.
-Angel Cortez
In my opinion, Holden constantly mentions the concept of age to show to the readers that there are struggles throughout their lifetime to potentially “grow-up”. As we grow up, we are still in the process of learning and maturing. From being forced to mature and still being in the process of learning different aspects of life, we are going between both concepts of being childish and borderline mature. As a teen, I know that there is always that pressure of growing up and conforming into being mature for our age, but we are still learning and there’s no rush to being mature. “I am quite young for my age..” and “Sometimes I act a lot older than I am—I really do—but people don’t notice it.” This provides a very contradictory statement as Holden is stating that he is both a playful child yet he is also mature. This I can also relate to, as I can act immature in very unnecessary situations but when needed I do act very mature.
ReplyDeleteI believe the concept of prep schools show Salinger’s own personal perspective behind how prep schools have these certain stereotypes. The typical stereotypes of prep schools having students being sophisticated and poised yet Holden doesn’t live up to these characteristics. Holden is shown to be different from the typical prep to simply show that everyone is unique in his or her own way. It shows that not everyone should conform and to just be themselves which shows a sense of being their own individual unique self. It also potentially shows that not everyone can live up to certain expectations like to be a prep. A people grow up, they make minor mistakes and are seen to be imperfect but that’s how it is to grow up.
-Angel Nicole Villareal
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLike my fellow peers, I think that Holden constantly references age frequently throughout the first fifty pages in the novel for a variety of reasons. Holden establishing how he sometimes acts young while acting mature in other instances allows for the reader to see that Holden, just like people in reality, have a three-dimensional personality. What I mean by this is that the narrator does not try to mask his quirks and flaws; on the contrary, he speaks to us with his own perspective on life, and tells his story subjectively and true to how he remembers events. This added dimension to his personality helps us connect to Holden and empathize with him. Imagine a scenario where Holden tries to remain unbiased when retelling his story: he conceals his thoughts when they seem inappropriate and tells us just the information about what happened over the course of the novel. In this instance, Holden would feel distant and cold, not allowing us many chances to connect with him. That is why Holden telling us how his age-based descriptions are dynamic is crucial. We see Holden for who he is: a flawed teenager influenced by his own unique past.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to Holden being kicked out of multiple prep schools, I believe that this shows just how rebellious the narrator is. During the time period of The Catcher in the Rye, prep schools were types of schools that were associated with things such as a quality education and influence, just as Mr. Rodriguez pointed out. Yet, Holden Caulfield goes against the grain: he does not care about his education—evidenced by his flunking out of the prep schools—and he expresses his contempt for Pencey Prep, meaning that he wasn’t exactly influenced by the school. Overall, Holden being kicked out of four prep schools is one piece of evidence to show Holden’s defiance against certain aspects of society.
-Brenden Gregorio
I agree with Brenden's analysis of what feeling you from the narrator Holden. The words he uses are not considered very vulgar by most people in today's society. It is used so much that it teachers will not send you to the AP office for saying the word crap. In my opinion, Holden is the equivalent to a modern day teenager of the 21st century and would fit right in and share the same views of the world that many other teens do. This is a major part of the story because society at the time determines that Holden is not mentally stable enough and needs to be in a mental facility getting help. It raises the question for me, would Holden be admitted to mental facility in today’s society or would he just be considered that normal, rebellious teenager of the 21st century.A lot of teenagers in today's society are hate school, don't care about and are always in trouble. These types of kids getting kicked out multiple schools and society kind of gives them the label of " people who will not be productive members of society." Society believes that the highest form of education you can achieve will provide a more successful life opposed to the rebels who don''t care about school and want to do other things with their life. I personally believe that Holden would not be admitted to a mental facility from my early observations considering the type of mentally unstable individuals that live in the 21st century American society today.
Delete-Joseph Doumbia
Joseph's points about holden's diction and how the establishment handled "unruly" students is very interesting. I do agree with his first statement. In the 40s and 50s their vocabulary was different from what we use today. depending on the family teens like holden could speak in such a manner because they were considered adults or nearly adults. As for the way schools punished kids, there was a lot less tolerance than what we see today and often times schools used questionable methods to discipline students. Sending students to the corner of the room, the "dunce" hat or even physically hurting the student were all examples of disciplinary action by schools. perhaps Holden's residence in a mental hospital has to do with the school system or his parents trying to find a solution to his behaviour. American society was much more critical about contributing to the nation and conforming in the past as addressed in post #1. So maybe Holden had gotten into trouble with some institution late in the book.
Delete-Michael Llanos
In the previous posts, we discussed the importance of Manhattan as the setting of The Catcher in The Rye and how the city reflected Holden's mentality. I would like to relate this to the prep schools also mentioned in the book. These prep schools and the boys who attend them demonstrate the 'perfect' definition of society in the 1950s. Holden stands next to this picture as the odd one out. The significance of this is that the prep schools help identify Holden's rebellious personality as a unique feature of the decade, just like the busy pattern of New York life reflects on Holden's mental thought pattern.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden mentions his age and compares it to his actions throughout the book, he is also shedding light on the modern teenager's daily conflict within him or herself. Going back to Angel's post, I feel as if I too can relate to Caulfield's constant clash within himself about his age versus his actions. There are situations in which I tend to act like a child, and "horse around" as Holden does sometimes. However, there are also scenarios in which I must act much more mature. But sometimes I do not want to act like an adult, but know that, according to my age, I cannot act any younger.
I found that many teenagers my age endure the same conflict each day as well. We are stuck between a child and an adult, and sometimes we do not know which role to play, regardless of which one we want to play. Holden's tendency to deal with this same issue throughout the book demonstrates that it is not uncommon to have such issues.
I also agree with Brenden about the fact that we should appreciate Holden's act of reaching out to his audience about his conflicts and thought pattern, no matter how inconsistent it may be. If he did not give us a clear image of his persona, then we as readers would be lost about who he really is, and we would never know. He is not a perfect person, but despite his mental issues he does significantly attempt to find his own way through the harsh jungle of expectations and pressures that appear everywhere he goes. Many teenagers today wish to do the same, but fear facing disappointment or virtual failure in the eyes of their peers or parents. Holden portrays the outgoing and fearless version of these teenagers, and conveys to them the message of confidence and tells them to disregard the trends of the year and go about their own desires and dreams.
To answer Mr. Rodriguez's first question about Holden's constant reference to age, I have to agree with Brenden that there are a variety of reasons behind it. I think that one of the reasons is that he himself is still in that gray area of teenage years. What I mean by this is that he's not yet an adult, but not a kid anymore. His references to age show that he has qualties of both; he has not fully found himself. However, I'm not completely confident in my response because this is the one part of the book that confused me.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, I believe that Holden getting kicked out of prep schools shows how reckless he is. In the time that this novel is set, I'm sure that admission into any prep school in the East Coast was considered an honor. The fact that Holden almost purposely flunks out of multiple of these schools shows how careless he is with his future.
-Anna Leon
I have to disagree with the belief that Holden is kicked out of prep schools due to his "reckless" behavior. The people who attend prep schools and the culture that prep schools are recognized don't necessarily fit Holden's personality. There is a sense of a "perfect" society prep schools attempt to create, in which Holden seems to be the odd person out. Holden's "rebellious" personality wasn't accepted or tolerated in prep schools, leading to him attend various schools.
DeleteWhen Holden refers to his age, he seems to contradict himself often. Holden appears to be having conflict within himself as he's trying to figure himself out. It's something his audience can relate to, as where many of today's teenagers have trouble finding an identity that's acceptable to themselves and society. I like to think of myself as a mature person, but I know I'm still growing and tend to catch myself being childish. I recognize Holden as a person who clearly is troubled and constantly has trouble identifying himself, but consistently shows an attempt to figure out who he is.
-Jose Escobedo
After reading the posts above, I agree with Abegail that it represents the average teenager as we act childish at times and mature during other times. I believe that Holden repeatedly refers to his age throughout the book to as he is facing the transition from child to adult and it is difficult for Holden to realize. I feel that Holden is not pressured by the societal views of a "grown up" as he still acts childish at times. Despite this, I like how Holden acknowledges whenever he starts to act childish. This shows that Holden is aware that he is starting to grow up and he will need to act more mature to fit that criteria.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the prep schools that are seen in this novel, they play a significant role. After reading my peers' posts, I agree that the incorporation of prep schools show how rebellious the narrator is. Even after attending multiple prep schools, he does not fit the stereotype that he is having a quality education, evident by Holden failing multiple classes. Even though Holden is blessed to have the money to be able to attend these prep schools, it shows how reckless he is as stated by Anna that he was kicked out and how careless he is about his future.
- Brian Arlantico
Holden's continuous reference of age may relate to the theme of mortality throughout the book. Instead of pondering ideas that normal teenagers would, Holden often thinks about death. He was predisposed to death as seen by his brother, Allie, 4 years prior to the setting and James Castle, the boy who jumped to his death wearing Holden’s turtleneck. It is suggested by some that Holden is a representation of the identity America fell upon after the dropping of the atomic bombs. Just as America lost its innocence by bombing Hiroshima, Holden lost his innocence by getting kicked out of Pency. In addition, both Holden and America are indirectly affected by leukemia. Holden's brother dies of this blood cancer, and the radiation due to the bombs dropped by the United States caused it in the lives of millions. This continuous reference to age may draw a parallel to suicide or the opposite, fear of death.
ReplyDeleteI believe the setting of prep schools is relevant to “The Catcher in the Rye” because it serves as a contrast. Prep Schools have a reputation for uniformity, success, and continuous cheer. Holden is the opposite in that he does not conform to society, is depressed, and has been expelled from 4 schools for academic failure.
- Sarah Schumacher
Similar to some of my peers, my interpretation of the quotes provided is Holden expressing his childish tendencies and rebellious personality. As teenagers, various thoughts run through our minds involving going against society’s precedents about how teenagers should behave. Teenagers do not want to be forced to live a certain way and will act rebelliously as a result. This feeling of unruliness in young people is what inspired movements such as the counterculture movement in the 1950s to occur. My point is that Holden believes that age does not dictate how a person should act or feel. This is evident when Holden asserts that he gets “bored sometimes when people tell me to act my age” (page 13). This heavily implies that he is fed up with people classifying his actions based on age. He believes that he can act however way he wants and that no one can tell him otherwise. Despite his rebellious behavior, there are instances where Holden does acknowledge when he acts childish. For example, he says “I told him to go wash his own moron face—which was a pretty childish thing to say” (page 59). Holden understands that there are boundaries as to what he can say or do before they are deemed immature.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Holden is in a prep school helps strengthen the overall message of the book. Since he is proven to not be satisfied with the social norm and rebels against society as a result, the systematic and pretentious process of prep school would only encourage Holden’s attitudes of defiance. The very idea of being “preppy” and being somewhat of a perfectionist is a very strong contrast to Salinger’s message of rebelliousness which would explain why Pencey Prep School was the chosen location for the first part of the book.
-Kelvin Alvero
I believe that Holden constantly mentions his age because he is stuck feeling the pressure s and contradictory attitude of society around him. As Negin mentioned, Holden is stuck between child and adult. Almost all o us can relate to this, because at some point in our lives, we have faced the daunting pressure of having to be mature at a young age. It's the scenario where you are "too old to do this, but still to young to do that". Holden is childish and mature at the same time, because given the circumstances he is presented with, as Angel stated, he is still growing and learning.
ReplyDeleteTo answer Mr. Rodriguez's significance of prep schools in the novel, I would like to point out that those are places where teens are expected to learn ettiquette and academics. It is a place where "model citizens" are made. It is important, in a sense that Holden breaks that "model student/ citizen" stereotype. His rebellious nature further emphasizes how he does not rely on anything to define who he is. For all those familiar with the novel, "A Seperate Peace", the characters's lives in that novel are similar to Holden, in that they both carry some sort of rebellious attitude within them. It reminds me of how sometimes, the more one pushes another person to be a certain way, the more that person they are pressuring will stray away. I cannot find another way to say it, but its like "reverse psychology", if you tell someone to do something, they wont do it. Prep Schools pressure teens, but like Holden, some do not want to conform.
I agree with Daphne and Negin in that Holden faces struggles with formulating his identity in the midst of society's constant pressures. I believe that an individual's level of maturity contributes heavily to the identity they are developing for themselves. The pressure placed on Holden to act more mature likely hindered his ability to not only be himself, but find himself as well. I feel as though the constant societal pressure to be mature led to an identity crisis resulting in his disgusted outlook on growing up.
DeleteI also agree that the prep schools are additional examples of societal pressures towards conformity. Students in prep schools are expected to model ideal citizens as Daphne stated. I believe that prep schools function as Holden's enemy in the novel. He refuses to fully engage in them because they encourage conformity as opposed to individual identity. This in turn suggests that conformity represents maturity where as individuality represents immaturity.
I agree with Sarah in that Holden's constant references to age have to do with the book's theme of mortality. Holden hasn't reached adulthood, yet he has already had plenty of experiences with death. I believe the death of Allie is very important to Holden's character since people who have suffered the death of an important loved one carry a lot of emotional trauma. Allie is being characterized as very smart, funny, and nice, all of which are very good traits even though Holden usually had an insult for everyone he saw and knew. Apparently, Holden didn't know the reason that he broke so many window's after Allie's death but I think it was his way of dealing with the pain of his little brother dying. At the time of this novel he could still be suffering from this pain.
ReplyDeleteAs for the significance of prep schools, I already mentioned how contradictory the motto of Holden's school is in comparison to him and other students in my last post. In a way, it is like a foil to Holden just like Allie was.
~Sofia Alduenda
I believe that Holden's references to age and growing up stems from his adolescence. He feels torn apart and caught in between his childhood and his near-future adulthood. Holden knows that as he grows up he must become a proper responsible adult that follows all of the guidelines. Instead of being open to this idea, he tells himself that the real world is dishonest. Because he thinks of adulthood so poorly, he tends to horse around and act younger than he actually is. He does this to somehow avoid his inevitable adulthood future. As he acts younger than he actually is, he thinks he is somehow rebelling against society and not doing what everybody else does.
ReplyDeletePreppy schools in this book have to do with Holden's perception that they are run by phony and cruel individuals just like the real world. Holden mocks their school motto: "Since 1888 we have been molding boys into splendid, clear-thinking young men." Holden then goes onto explain that he only knew 2 boys like that in the whole school. The prep schools in the book are a foil to Holden because they represent everything that he despises.
-Justin Bleisch
As mentioned multiple times, I can agree with my classmates that Holden’s behavior is typical for a teenager. It is obvious that Holden is struggling with the transition to adulthood. At certain moments of the book, Holden seems to have a very mature point of view and at other moments he is unknowingly immature. Like Andrew Son, I can relate to Holden because of his behavior. For example I may think of myself as a mature person in term of behavior, however to other people I may come off as an extremely immature person.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sarah and Kelvin in that having this story take place in a prep school create a deep contrast. As mentioned by Mr. Rodriguez, rich white kids attended these prep schools and those who graduated often went on to Ivy League schools. Holden is almost the opposite of those who attend prep schools. Holden does not put much effort into school or maintaining relationships and he does not seem to care about the cost and value of his education. In my opinion, Holden’s attitude towards these prep schools best shows his immaturity. In this novel, Holden seems to be rebelling to the idea of growing up which contributes to his ideas against school and obtaining a career.
-Jassin Reyes
As mentioned in previous observations and comments of my peers it is fair to conclude that Holden's character is one of an immature adolescent still struggling to come to terms with his own maturation and transition into adulthood an all too relevant theme for any adolescent who reads the novel and one that i can relate to all too well. In reference to the novels initial setting of the prep school it provides a stark contrast to the values of the people who normally attend those prep schools through Holden's contrasting values and frequent vulgarity as well as academic indifference. This creates an interesting introduction to the main protagonist that foreshadows the way Holden will act throughout the novel and his differing values from society that he frequently displays in the ways he sees "phoniness" and the way he judges almost every interaction with a negative view of other individuals as evidenced multiple times throughout the book.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly I too struggle with coming to terms with my age. Victor has a point when he says that Holden is an immature adolescent. Although I believe that most, if not all, adolescents are immature, and because so many of us are that it is only natural to act five some days and 75 on other days. I believe in this sense Holden is a regular teen, who many can relate to, just as Victor has said. To address the correlation of money, education, power, influence, and tradition Holden does his best to rattle all of these. He has money, from his Grandmother and father, but he lacks in education, and therefore does not know how to gain power. Holden breaks tradition, but continues to gain influence over adolescents through the years through his wacky personality and snark remarks. Overall, his aptitude is high, but because Holden fails to learn from others he cannot grasp any true power.
Delete-Isabella Wolf
Preparatory schools are some of the oldest institutions in the United States because men of wealth and influence sought to ensure that their heirs were provided with all of the necessary tools to succeed and thrive in their legacy. This same manner of thinking also prompted leading figures to force their children to follow in their footsteps no matter their own personal desires. As time passed, these ideals became tradition and embedded in our own concepts of culture as it is common to think that those who attend prep or boarding schools come from families maintaining a significant amount of wealth and or influence.
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 15, on page 140, it is mentioned that Holden Caulfield's father is a corporation lawyer who invests heavily in Broadway shows. Seeing as how the protagonist's family embodies the ideals of traditional America, it is not unreasonable to assume that his father, in sending him to these reputable schools, hopes that he will one day carry on the "family business". Unfortunately, due to his fervent mission to remain true to himself, and serious lack of application in his academics, I believe the main character at some point has begun to resent his father and all his attempts to mold him into something that he does not want to be. But because of his difficulty conveying his feelings, and seeming inability to deal with his problems, Holden proceeds to express himself through rebellious behavior. In this way, preparatory schools are essential to the novel's plot because they represent everything that the protagonist seeks to resist, for in his mind these establishments breed falseness in their mission to groom leading minds in society and stray from the true pursuit of knowledge in favor of power and authority. And while some aspects of his current situation are troublesome, his unwillingness to find a solution in order to prevent from throwing his life away only further emphasizes his immaturity and lack of responsibility. Nonetheless, this specific way of thinking is very reflective of that of teenagers as we can sometimes panic in times of distress when all that is required is a deep breath, a determination to succeed, and a plan of action.
I agree with the comments above in that Holden contradicts his statements and actions frequently. For example, Holden states, “I guess he thought it was all right to do because it was only me that was in the room. I didn’t care, except that it’s pretty disgusting to watch somebody pick their nose” (Chapter 2, page 12). This is one of the reasons why I did not trust him as a narrator. Although age may be a factor regarding why this contradiction occurs, I believe that Holden’s statements regarding his youth instead demonstrate his reluctance to grow and mature. As a teenager, Holden, like many of the students, is at a transitioning phase from youth to adulthood. The idea of change scares Holden, given the fact that Holden was greatly traumatized by an event that brought significant change—Allie’s death. He comments on his youth frequently to remind himself of the youthful innocence he must uphold and to shield him from the reality of growing up.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the prep school, I also believe that Holden’s inability to stay at a prep school initially shows his irresponsibility as a student. This was another reason why I did not trust him as a narrator. However, it also demonstrates his inability to conform to the standards set by the school. As noted by one of my peers, prep schools are known to be strict in regards to dress code and behavior. The fact that Holden was unable to settle in one prep school shows his rebellious nature as a growing teenager.
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DeleteI agree with Abigail's statement that Holden is not a reliable source of information. While many teenagers face moments where they are either immature or mature, Holden illustrates several times that he is unwilling to go through and take responsibilities for his actions. This is apparent when he does not want to go home as soon as he leaves the school and refuses to take the woman he calls in the middle of the night for a drink. I also feel that his depiction of himself as a childish person is a way of dismissing his actions and reducing the weight of the consequences. However, I did not realize that this reluctance might have spawned from his sibling's death. I think that it was very insightful of Abigail to think of Holden's character from that perspective. I now see that Allie's death did in fact cause change in Holden as he seems to treasure the glove, even if he acts dismissive of it when discussing it with his roommate.
DeleteI feel as if Holden's inability to retain admission to a prep school is also a result of the differences in the thought process of all individuals. Perhaps if he had resided in a different type of school or experienced a different method of teaching he might have been more of a proper student. Unfortunately, this does not change the fact that his character is indeed rebellious and causes complications within his life.
-Bisheshata Basnet
Alongside my classmates, we can all concur that Holden either acts childish or mature for his age. However, the pattern he expresses his age is peculiar because it can be very childish in one chapter and then mature for the next two, or vice versa. The internal conflict Holden pertains about age reflects towards all teenagers in society. We have the choice to act like adults, but sometimes we get mocked for it. We have committed foolish actions that lead to us being seen as children, and we still get mocked for it. There is no in between for teenagers like you and me. As Negin argued, there are times we should to act like adults, but yet we do not want to; yet we cannot act any younger for our age because it just seems idiotic. We are confused- some more than others- on how to act "our age." Holden is simply the image of today's teenagers searching for the solution to this complex problem.
ReplyDeleteNow, we all understand that Holden has been kicked out of prep school four times. It seems ironic because the theory of prep schools is to mold boys-or girls- into brilliant, well-mannered intellectuals for the next generation. Holden juxtaposes this whole theory because he always flunks out of the schools he's attended, and he still does not care for how much he has failed in school. It's unfortunate to view a boy not caring about the privileged education he is being given because there are many uneducated people in this world. However, it is also an amazing thing to see him neglect this education because it seems that prep schools place very high standards for their students to achieve. Those standards seem to take away the uniqueness an individual carries inside of them and is placed in this cookie cutter system that fabricates them to be close to perfect just like everyone else attending the school. Holden rebels against the idea and keeps the uniqueness the world gave him. We may not view that uniqueness right now or ever will in the book, but it conveys the thought that if we were in prep schools sure we can be brilliant thinkers going to Ivy league schools. But then again, would we be the unique individuals we were meant to be?
-Brandon Sanchez
I would have to agree that attending various preparatory schools is a sign that an individual is financially stable. Knowing this, we know that Holden Caulfield, the narrator has a wide range of resources compare to other individuals to receive the help that he needs to get out of such a pessimistic mindset. In addition, we know as many teenagers come across the transition point between adulthood from adolescence many rebel. The narrator is at the point where he no longer believes in what society has set as the standard way of living. By being unable to stay at a prep school, he is leaving a symbolic message of his rebellious behavior. Nevertheless, Holden Caulfield seems to become a stronger figure to trust as he fights for his own beliefs. As he becomes an adult, I hope he changes it in his own little world, where he is in control of his success. Before I forget, I would like to mention prep schools are a gateway to advanced education and as a result, a well paying job. For Holden Caulfield to look passed his opportunity really concerns me that his mindset is not focused on the prize. We all know that thankfully the narrator received the help he needed.
ReplyDeleteHolden constant reference to age in several situations, I believe is just a way for him to get what he wants by abusing the given age towards a certain situation. It is almost as Holden choses when and where he wants to act mature or reckless. This is clearly demonstrated in chapter 6 where Holden choses to lash out on Stradlater and act childish, due to him being nervous because Stradlater merely came back from a date with a girl who he liked. Him punching Stradlater first, insulting him, and acting childish resulted in him getting beat up pretty badly. On the contrary in chapter 8 when Holden meets the mother of Ernest Morrow, we see a completely different mature Holden. (Despite lying to preserve his integrity) We spectate him attempting to have a mature conversation with this lady he just met, even offering her a cocktail. Despite him lying constantly in that conversation, the point is we see Holden adapt to a given situation and chose how he would like to act. Continuing from chapter 8, Mrs. Morrow says "Dear are you even allowed to order drinks?" (pg.65) Holden then explains he usually gets away with it due to his height and his grey hair. Although we clearly know he is very young in this instance he is acting like he is much older. As for Holden being kicked out of several prep schools, just goes to show us again what kind of student Holden is, which furthermore exemplifies his irresponsibility and immatureness.
ReplyDelete-Dennis O'Brien (DJ)
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ReplyDeleteHolden makes constant references to age in the early part of this book. I believe that there is an element of relatability to the main character because at some point in everyone's childhood you act immature and make mistakes. It evokes some sympathy in the reader. But, at the same time Holden has had so many chances to redeem himself at this point, I begin to wonder will he ever change. Will he be like the little kid that is too afraid to go out into real world and become an responsible adult or live with his parents until he is in his mid 30's because unmotivated to accomplish much of anything in life. Even Old Spencer questions if Holden will take too long to grow up on pg.18. I come to this conclusion because prep schools are supposed to help mold children in the intelligent, high-class members of society not the lazy, non-motivated, unresponsible members of society.
ReplyDeleteAs mentioned by Andrew Son there might be counterculture in these prep schools that contradict the idea of prep schools being able to mold anyone into a good member of the American society. This explains why Holden acts very immature. It remains to be known why Holden keeps attending these prep schools if he despises the culture so much. There is no doubt many others in Holden's prep school who will not become the brightest and greatest members of the society which feeds into this idea of counterculture exsisting at Prep schools. For example Ackley, his dorm neighbor at Pencey, a boy who does not groom himself very well who like to pick up people's personal stuff without permission.
As teenagers, we face the dilemma of growing up and transitioning from children to adults daily. There are times we want to be perceived as adults and mature because that is what society claims. We dislike when we are told we are acting too childish and must act our age. That statement, in my opinion, act as a reason to be rebellious and stay that way in order to emphasize teenagers do not have to fit into what society believes. Holden would act one way and act another within a chapter. However, we see as the plot progresses Holden chooses to act as an adult to entertain himself and escape his negative emotions. Many of us will experience growing up differently yet we will be able to relate to one another in some way. There are always a time and place to act mature and as an adult, however deep inside we are a child at heart.
ReplyDeleteHolden has flunked out of four prep schools and I believe this is in relation to his carefree and defiant attitude. He is irritable when it comes to being told to do something a certain way due to his creative thinking process. As evident when Stradtlater gave Holden the task of writing his composition on a room or house and instead he wrote about Allie's baseball glove. Holden becomes emotionally invested in something if he is given the opportunity to speak freely. I question whether or not Holden was forced to attend a prep school by his parents? I believe Holden would excel in a public school due to prep school's teachers focusing on their mission of molding boys or girls into splendid clear thinking adults.
I agree with the feedback given my most of my peers above. The concept of growing up and age can play a significant role in one's life. Being childish allows someone to have less responsibilities and expectations. Maturity is one possible the result of one learning from their mistakes and growing from them. This concept of age and growing up can relate to us as seniors. We are at a crucial stage in life where we are considering our future plans such as which university to apply to and what possible career will we take on. Many of us may feel that we are ready and prepared for what lies ahead after senior year, however once the time comes, we will probably feel fearful and have the strong desire of not growing up. Holden, in this situation, is bombarded with many internal struggles that he has to face which causes him to possibly miss being a child. Holden feels that he also wants to be mature and grown up considering his account with the prostitute in his hotel room and the women in the Lavender Room of another hotel.
ReplyDeleteLearning that Holden has been kicked out of four prep schools proves how he is unfit to be responsible, mature, and motivated. JD Stalinger reveals Holden's character as one who gives up easily and no longer cares about anything. Holden's persona demonstrates his hatred for many things, especially people. Holden is quick to anger and is easily annoyed. Knowing about prep schools and their expectations, Holden definitely is unsuitable to live up to any prep school's standards academically and behaviorally.
-Micah Rodriguez
When reading the novel, I did notice Holden's references to which he refers himself as feeling older or younger than his actual age. I agree with Daphne's interpretation specifically in that, at Holden's age in the novel it is sort of difficult to resonate with feeling like an adult or a child. There is a part of him that wants to believe that he is able to make decisions for himself, yet like a child, he acts on impulse. At this age, I feel that teenagers feel the obligation to have to be one or the other. It is interesting to see that throughout the novel, Holden has these moments where he deeply reminisces about his past, making him seem like this old soul. Other times in the novel, he embodies this image of teenage rebellion and misunderstanding. At the same time, I feel as if there is this need in a lot of teenagers feel to want to grow up quickly to feel in control of their own paths and futures.
ReplyDeleteWhile reading the novel, my initial thoughts of what a prep school looked like was an all boys school with uniforms. I wondered how exactly students were accepted into these types of schools considering that Holden is a failing student. As mentioned by Mr.Rodriguez, students who are to attend prep schools are placed with the intention to go to Ivy League schools after they graduate. Was Holden's acceptance to Pencey solely based upon his wealth?
I feel that the associations with prep schools in relation to "Catcher in the Rye" deal primarily with the things that Holden does not really care about. Mr. Rodriguez acknowledges that prep schools are connected with things like a quality education, tradition, and power. As evidenced by the novel, Holden is an outcast and does not seem to really care about his schooling or being like everyone else. This makes a big impact on the novel considering that the protagonist is placed somewhere where he does not belong, leading him on his journey. Holden is evidently unlike the situation or setting that he is placed in, playing a significant role in the entirety of the book.
-Allison Baciles
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ReplyDeleteI can wholly agree with Brandon Sanchez on both points he made about Holden’s representation of the modern teenager’s internal conflict about age as well as the importance of uniqueness, no matter how daring it may be. It is common for teenagers to feel that they do not belong, especially because we are expected to act older than children yet are treated like such. For example, my family holds many potlucks which include all my cousins and their families. I am the oldest of my cousins; the second oldest cousin is about three years younger than me. As a kid, I seemed to levitate toward the section of the house where all my younger cousins were, playing toys or video games. Once I hit the awkward age of thirteen, however, I felt too old to be playing with children and joined the parents who usually sat around the kitchen table and talked. Having trouble engaging in their conversations, I was unsure of my place in family gatherings. I felt even more incongruous when the parents asked why I wasn’t playing with my cousins, as if I was not welcome with the adults. Like me, Holden is caught between two age groups and is unsure how to react. Unfortunately, he is stuck with his immature nature in a mature environment. Holden does not appear ready to enter adulthood; the way he badgers Ackley, Stradlater and Luce reflects how prominent his immaturity is.
ReplyDeleteI feel as though Holden chooses the wrong way to attempt to act mature. Because of his rebellious disposition, he constantly partakes in adult pastimes that teenagers are prohibited from doing (i.e. drinking, smoking, sexual ventures). Even though he is participating in activities that adults do, he fails to realize that he is far too young to be doing so, which greatly exemplifies immaturity at its finest. Also, Salinger’s addition of prep schools signified Holden’s inconformity because Holden had an immense amount of courage and gut to be kicked out of four of these highly educational boarding schools. It is evident how privileged one must be to attend a prep school like Pencey, and the fact that Holden took advantage of this entitlement gives the readers a clear distinction of Holden’s disobedience against societal norms.
I very much agree with the point Andrew made with the idea of Holden being representative to counterculture. The prep schools serve as a vivid contrast to Holden's interests. This book is significant because Holden indirectly paved the image of teenage rebellion, and his behavior is normal among teenagers today. The prep schools were there to help establish Holden's character and show that his personality is not of of a "preppy".
ReplyDeleteTo answer the first question posed by Mr. Rodriguez, I agree with a majority of the posts made by my peers that the constant references to age in this novel show Holden's struggle as a teenager. When Holden says he is mature and old for his age yet says he can act like a kid at times, shows the fact that he is torn between his innocent childhood and his fast approaching adulthood. When you are a teenager, it is a difficult period where you are finding yourself and becoming your own person which is why I think that Holden is repeatedly torn between acting too young or too old for his age. As Brenden has mentioned above, I also really enjoy that Holden accepts the fact he has flaws and speaks about them. This is something I think was done by the author, J.D. Salinger, so that we, the readers, can understand what the protagonist is feeling and experiencing.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to why the prepatory schools that Holden has attended have to do with the book "The Catcher in the Rye" is that as my peers have said, it really emphasizes the main character's rebelliousness. I believe if the story was about a lower middle class teenager who attended a public school and had parents who did not have great paying jobs, the story would have been tremendously different. Salinger purposely made the story about a preppy kid with a well off family to show how defiant Holden really was at the time and how unsatisfied he was with the social norms that were being imposed upon him in his prep schools. To answer Allison's question if Holden was accepted into Pencey surely because of his wealth, I would say most likely. The fact that he has been kicked out of numerous schools before that should lead the people in charge of admissions at Pencey to realize that Holden is not a student they would want at their institution. We all know that his father is a corporate lawyer which shows that his family has a high social status, and that is something that prep schools value. It could also possibly be that his father paid a little extra money to the school so that they could accept his son, even if Holden's actions prove otherwise. Keeping in mind that he had previously been kicked out of three schools, what do you all think is the reason Holden was admitted into Pencey?
-Atheana Lopez
When I read the first 50 pages of Catcher in the Rye I directly pointed out that Holden is a teenager who does not suit the setting of a prep school. I fairly agree that William said Holden's personality does not fulfill that he is "preppy" because Holden acts from the opposite, unlike a rich school student. He tends to act upon being rebellious such as smoking at a young age. Holden also conflicts over his age from jumping back and forth. For example, he is confused about acting like his age and being immature at the same time. I strongly believe that teenagers struggle with finding their identity since they have to learn from high school and taking steps in order to enter college.
ReplyDeleteSince Holden does not match with the concept of being in a prep school because he is naturally a trouble maker he shows that the prep school environment is a complete opposite from what he is. The troublemaker and rebellious Holden shows that his character is the reason why he was kicked out of the many prep schools he has attended. Every individual can depict the troublemakers in school and the book shows how most students need to grow up in a more mature environment. Holden disrespects much of the things that the prep schools limit and this shows that he is not mature enough to step in to the adult world just yet.
Once again, Holden is the early model of the today’s teenagers. His spurts of maturity and immaturity can be seen in almost all of us teenagers today. There are times that call for us to grow up and act the way we are expected to (usually around adults), and there are times where we can let loose and act the way we want to (typically with our peers). This constant switch between maturity and immaturity can be attributed to the fact that we are in the transitional time of our lives; the end of childhood and the beginning of adulthood. Like us, Holden is caught in this stage of his life. He was sent off to a prep school on his own with no immediate family. A sudden change like this requires one to assume the responsibility of an adult, regardless of age. Unfortunately, Holden did not accept the change in the way that would be expected. Rather than acting like a responsible adult, Holden behaves impulsively. He flunked out of four prep schools. He mocked Stradlater, much like a child does when arguing, telling Stradlater to “wash his own moron face” (Salinger 59). After leaving Pencey, he wanders the streets at night, visiting clubs, ordering a prostitute (though he did not engage in sexual activity), etc. However, it cannot be ignored that Holden does have his moments of notable maturity. For example, his encounter with the two nuns in Chapter 15. Here, he represents himself well. The nuns seem to take an immediate liking to him.
ReplyDeleteGoing back to the topic of Holden getting kicked out of prep school, it is obvious that he is not fit for that kind of atmosphere. Not because he isn’t smart enough, but because he has the wrong mindset. His rejection of conformity results in his eviction from school. Perhaps, by writing about Holden’s experiences with prep schools, Salinger is sharing his own personal thoughts about these schools.
In agreement with previous posts, I believe that Holden's contradicting statements about his age show his struggle with being a teenager and transitioning from childhood to adulthood. Being a teenager can be very difficult because it is the period between safe childhood and scary adulthood where people have to discover who they are. I believe that Holden, similarly to many of us, is constantly torn between the safety of childhood and the reality of adulthood.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Holden's association with prep schools, he is the exact opposite of the ideal "prep." In agreement with Mr. Rodriguez's description of a prep, I normally think of preps all wearing the same thing: khakis, polo shirts, penny loafers, and having neatly done hair that is gelled for boys or pulled back for girls. I viewed Holden's red hunting hat as another thing that set him apart from his peers, which also embodied his inability to conform. Also, because prep schools are often associated with tradition and a good education, Holden failing out of multiple prep schools displayed his rebellion, which was unusual in the 1950s, and his extremely untraditional personality in comparison to his peers.
In agreement with previous posts, I believe that Holden's contradicting statements about his age show his struggle with being a teenager and transitioning from childhood to adulthood. Being a teenager can be very difficult because it is the period between safe childhood and scary adulthood where people have to discover who they are. I believe that Holden, similarly to many of us, is constantly torn between the safety of childhood and the reality of adulthood.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Holden's association with prep schools, he is the exact opposite of the ideal "prep." In agreement with Mr. Rodriguez's description of a prep, I normally think of preps all wearing the same thing: khakis, polo shirts, penny loafers, and having neatly done hair that is gelled for boys or pulled back for girls. I viewed Holden's red hunting hat as another thing that set him apart from his peers, which also embodied his inability to conform. Also, because prep schools are often associated with tradition and a good education, Holden failing out of multiple prep schools displayed his rebellion, which was unusual in the 1950s, and his extremely untraditional personality in comparison to his peers.
Holden’s maturity in the first 50 pages is quite contradictory. At first he claims that he acts immaturely for his age, but he then goes to argue that he is actually mature compared to his peers. As Holden is coming of age, he realizes the benefits and consequences to adulthood, and therefore is ambivalent about his maturity. Similar to the modern teenager's daily conflict finding oneself. Holden enjoys the countless freedoms and opportunities he experiences as an adult, but dreads the responsibilities and phoniness that follows. He is constantly planning schemes to escape growing up, such as fleeing to a New England cabin or leaving on a romantic getaway with Sally. In another light, Holden's struggle of maturity appeals to the reader and their similar experiences.
ReplyDeleteHolden Caulfield is the antithesis of prep schools and all of their beliefs. The setting of Pencey Prep served as a juxtaposition to the character of Holden. Unlike his fellow peers, Holden has no regard for his education nor his future, he is a perfect example of a rebellious teenager in his time. The contrast in ideals serve to demonstrate Holden’s unique personality and outlook on society at the time. He openly expressed his hatred for phoniness and lack of authenticity. After being expelled from four prep schools, it is evident that Holden is trying to save himself from having to grow up into an adult world he sees as phony.
The fact that prep schools are all about maintaining certain standards for their male alumni almost serves as a foil to Holden's rebellious character. Most of the boys at the prep school look down on Holden because he dares to stray from the predetermined path that Pencey has set for him and others. Since finishing the book and contemplating some of its hidden features, I now realize the possible meaning behind Holden's red hunting hat. In accordance with the previous descriptions about common prep dress, when one imagines a prep school boy wearing a bright red hunting hat, it must be to set him apart from his peers. In this case, I feel that this is just another example of how Holden strays from the "prep path", and dares to show to others how different he really is from the generic white boy standard. As evidenced by characters such as Ackley, prep in the novel, is not only a style but a way of life, one of which Holden chooses to stay far from. Prep is not only about boat shoes, khakis and button up shirts, it has a lot to do with first impressions and carrying on traditional values set forth by older generations. Holden never really discusses much about his father, so I feel that this is one of many clues which distinguish the character's opposing feelings to the prep lifestyle, as far as following tradition that carries no meaning to the protagonist's mind.
ReplyDelete-Savannah Mojica
Along with my peers, I agree with the conclusion of the first 50 pages being contradictory due to him trying to balance between his teenage self and his adulthood. This was one of the few things I can relate to with Caulfield because I too am always finding myself acting a bit too old for my age but I can also be childish as a teenager. In regards to the prep school style being the complete opposite of what Caulfield is all about, I believe the two being contradictory to each other made it all the more of a story to read. As I was reading the links Mr. Rodriguez put up, I found a tip to living a preppy lifestyle is to not be fake. Whether this means to not change a lifestyle too quick or to remain true to those around you, I belive Caulfield breaks this tradition because he always had something bad to say about those he would talk to (Ackley and Stradlater). Also, Caulfield paid no attention or saw no need for a quality education since he had been dropped from 4 prep schools and managed to fail all classes except one at Pencey Prep.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to Mr. Rodriguez questioning what all this has to do with the Catcher In the Rye, I searched up what the meaning of the title was and found it to mean "catch the children if, in their abandon, they come close to falling off the brink." Caulfield misinterprets this to mean saving children from their innocence which I found ironic because he lost his innocence but since he is being portrayed as the only person who lost his innocence throughout the story. I have yet to read and interpret when the meaning of the title and Caulfield's life match up.
I believe that Holden, like many other teenagers today, uses the age references as excuses to act younger than he is or to be treated like an adult because he's older than a child. I would agree with DJ in that he likes to abuse the age excuse. He takes advantage of his appearance when he's at bars even though he's younger than he already is. However, when he is being immature, he uses the excuse that he acts like he's "about thirteen...".
ReplyDeleteThe prep schools are significant to the book because they're thought to have perfect kids while Holden is considered a failure or a lazy teen. It's ironic because someone like Holden, who has low expectations for himself,is going to school in which almost everyone expects to make it into an Ivy League school. It adds to the situation of Holden Caulfield because so many have set high expectations that he makes little to no effort to meet them. On top of those expectations, his siblings are successful in their education. Holden describes his siblings Phoebe and Allie as brilliant. Meanwhile, Holden himself is getting kicked out of his fourth prep school because he flunked every class other than English.
I agree with my peers in that Holden constantly talks about his age because he feels pressured and that he is still stuck between the stage of being a teenager and becoming an adult. I personally and im sure most of my peers can relate in that we are going through this stage just as much as Holden is, and as we get closer to graduating high School it becomes harder and harder. That feeling of not wanting to grow up or for some it maybe wanting to grow up too fast. I'm sure like many of us like Daphne stated Holden (and my peers and I) act childish and mature at the same time, based on the situation.
ReplyDeleteTo answer Mr. Rodriquez's question about the significance of prep schools in the novel to really have Holden stand out because like Daphne stated Prep schools are for those to learn etiquette and excel in academics, and Holden follows through with neither of those two. He has a natural rebellious attitude and ahead of his time in society, proving that he is not one to fit in with preppy people.
In reference to Mr. Rodriguez question, Holden's dislike for prep schools is because he thinks he lacks intelligence. Holden has expressed to his readers many times that, he is the dumb one in the family and that compared to his siblings, he's a failure. Holden feels inadequate at Pency, so as a defense mechanism, he mocks everything "preppy". He's a rebellious teen who stands against conformity, which prep schools essentially enforce. He also may not like prep schools because it requires a certain level of maturity, that he's not willing to adapt to. At prep schools you are expected to carry yourself a particular way but because Holden enjoys his freedom and youthful demeanor, prep schools aren't for him.
ReplyDeleteHolden rejects the preppy life seeing how disingenuous it turns out to be. One would imagine that someone attending preppy school would be academically superior but Caulfield proves this wrong by introducing Stradlater, someone who belittles his studies.In addition, Stradlater does have power and influence, but uses it to take advantage of other people. For instance, he uses his popularity and good looks to play with girls and make others do things for him like homework. This sends a message to the reader that the preps can be just as bad as the greasers, disobedient and uncommitted. This also shows that even though prep schools are designed to give everyone equal chances of being successful by applying themselves to their academics, there are preps who succeed by cutting corners like how Stradlater used Holden to write his composition and how there is still a game of favoritism among the individuals. Seeing this, Caulfield rejects prep schools while having no plans for him in the future. Holden Caulfield with his economic status of his parents, had the potential to become a wealthy and influential person but did not feel obligateded to become the vain person he perceives the privilege to be.
ReplyDeleteAbout the comments about his own age and being childish, I can relate to Holden because a lot of times teenagers get told to "act their age" and yet older people often disregard our opinions or views on things because we are "too young", I feel that he made all of these comments that Mr. Rodriguez put as examples because he was scared of growing up, he was a teenager, so it is typical that he wanted to do and say whatever he wanted, and other people perceived it as him acting in a childish way or being immature.
ReplyDeletePrep schools have obviously been prestigious institutions where young people are supposed to act and look a certain way and excel in academics since the birth of our country and still today, anyone who reads the catcher in the rye can clearly see that Holden does not fit the ideal image and attitude of a traditional preppy student attending one of these schools, like many of my classmates have already said, Holden stands against many if not all of the ideals that schools like Pencey, he is not a dedicated student, to put it simply. The reason why prep schools are so significant to this novel is exactly that, the main character spent a lot of time in them and gained experiences and met people that, wether he liked them or not, shaped him as a person and influenced his life and thinking in a great way.
The quotes Mr. Rodriguez included all are how Holden feels towards growing up. Throughout the entire book, he seems to be scared of growing up. It is hard to observe this seeing as he goes to bars, pays prostitutes, and is always on his own like a grown up person would. But he was a teenager. At this age, many of us want to do things we shouldn't yet do, but we don't want to grow up. Personally i want to grow up, but i'm also scared to grow up because of all the responsibilities that come with this.
ReplyDeleteI feel like the concept of a preppy school and all their traditions elaborates on the theme of coming of age. these schools have set traditions, etc. that they want their students to follow. They expect a certain level of maturity, intelligence, and conduct when they attend their school. when we think of boarding schools we picture preppy, stuck up rich white kids who think they're better than everyone else. Holden clearly is not like this. He has been kicked out of multiple schools and has been recently expelled out of this one. I think the reason prep schools are so important in this novel is because of the way they shape the main character. Holden has learned many things through the many schools he has attended. Even though he's been expelled many times, the experiences helped to shape him and his decisions in his future.
The quotes Mr. Rodriguez included all are how Holden feels towards growing up. Throughout the entire book, he seems to be scared of growing up. It is hard to observe this seeing as he goes to bars, pays prostitutes, and is always on his own like a grown up person would. But he was a teenager. At this age, many of us want to do things we shouldn't yet do, but we don't want to grow up. Personally i want to grow up, but i'm also scared to grow up because of all the responsibilities that come with this.
ReplyDeleteI feel like the concept of a preppy school and all their traditions elaborates on the theme of coming of age. these schools have set traditions, etc. that they want their students to follow. They expect a certain level of maturity, intelligence, and conduct when they attend their school. when we think of boarding schools we picture preppy, stuck up rich white kids who think they're better than everyone else. Holden clearly is not like this. He has been kicked out of multiple schools and has been recently expelled out of this one. I think the reason prep schools are so important in this novel is because of the way they shape the main character. Holden has learned many things through the many schools he has attended. Even though he's been expelled many times, the experiences helped to shape him and his decisions in his future.
When it comes to Holden facing the reality that he is going to have to face his fear of growing up is where I believe Holdens defeat lays. I believe that in chapter 6 when Holden gets knocked out by stradlater is where it begins. That his defeat symbolizes the fight he will lose growing up and facing harder challenges. In addition, as much as Holden seems to hate adulthood he will sometimes pretend to be or to act older, mainly to attract women. Yet, in chapter 13 when he claims to be twenty-two and pays for a prostitute, he then realizes he cannot take on this idea of being an "adult" when he refuses to have sexual intercourse with the women, and instead just talk with her.
ReplyDeleteI think that Holden's background of attending multiple Prep schools and getting kicked out of all of them is very crucial to the story. Just as discussed in post #2, the Prep schools play a crucial role in Holden's sense of alienation. Being kicked out of all of them for not meeting their "high quality" standards probably takes a great toll out of Holden. At least, if it were me being kicked out of multiple prep schools I would get pretty down on myself and feel like i'm not good enough or that i just cant quite fit in.
I agree with what has been said by my peers so far. In order to answer the question of Holden’s maturity skills, I believe that he changes maturity levels so often because he, like many of us, are caught in a place where you are expected to act like adults, yet are still treated like children. Holden also often acts out because he wishes to set himself apart from the other boys his age. It is very common for teenagers to act out in defiance as they wish to find themselves and find a place in the world.. That is why he acts immaturely against Ackley, Stradlater and Luce. Being a teenager myself I can see how the stress of adulthood can make a person revert to childish actions. However, many of us teenagers do not deal with stress the way Holden does, by doing adult specific activities such as smoking, drinking, and engaging in sexual ventures.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the multiple amount of preparatory schools that Holden attends helps to emphasize his rebellious nature. If he were to come from a low income family it would have a completely different feel and there would be a different lesson since there would be different social standards imposed. Holden, coming from a wealthy family, chooses to defy his social norm of prioritizing his education and attending an ivy league college. As mentioned in the novel, Holden’s father is a corporate lawyer. This job has a high position and ranking among the wealthy class during this time period. Holden, knowing his history of being able to get kicked out of prep schools, still manages to get kicked out of Pencey and will later attend a different prep school after his stay at the hospital. This makes me question whether or not maybe his dad has helped him continue his education, either through means of bribery or something else.
In the previous entries I have made on other posts, I have constantly expressed my disliking towards Holden. I agree with my peers in that Holden switches up his levels of maturity, based on the scene or situation at hand. In many scenes, readers are shown the childish ways of Holden, while in other scenes, we are informed that Holden longs for maturity and adulthood as well. This character trait of Holden's is one that I can personally relate to, similarly to my peers. At this stage in our lives, teenagers are left to either continue their immature and childish ways, or mature and grow up. As much as I wish I could say I lean more towards maturity, it is true that I remain quite childish, more often than I should. The fact that Holden is honest with his readers and reveals when he is childish makes me develop a liking towards him. Furthermore, this action leads me to trust Holden as a narrator since I previously did not trust Holden after he stated that he was a "terrific liar".
ReplyDeleteThe idea of prep schools in the book is significant in that it plays a huge role in developing Holden's character, just like what Vinnie stated. I feel that Holden strays away from being a typical teenage male attending a boarding school, and just wishes to be himself, which I truly admire about Holden. Many times, readers are informed of Holden's rebellious ways, getting kicked out of boarding school being one of them. I strongly agree with Vinnie in the sense that if it wasn't for Holden's family connections, he would not have been able to attend the numerous schools he has been to. In response to Mr. Rodriguez's description of prep schools being associated with associated with tradition, a quality education, money, power, and influence, I believe that Holden's parents most likely send him to various boarding schools in order to maintain their status in society, since they appear to be of high status.
-Catalina Isip
In my opinion, most people see the attitude that Holden holds up as a stubborn rebellious sixteen year old who has been kicked out of Pencey Prep because of his academic failure. However i find Holden to be somewhat clever and tactful. It is not easy to be a teenager, a lot of things change and it is hard to adapt yourself to this new phase in life. Holden finds a distrust in his surroundings and the only way he could get around with it is by his doubt in the adult life. He tries to act superficial because he wants to hide how weak he is on the inside. As i have mentioned before, from the beginning of the story Holden has separated his childhood from his adult life and has not told us why. Holden stands in a high society in which a lot is expected from him and maybe he feels a certain pressure to behave or act a certain way for ''society'' to accept him.
ReplyDelete-Ayline Ruelas
His references to age and growing up are immensely contradictory due to his childish acts, which are expressed when he said, “I told him to go wash his own moron face—which was a pretty childish thing to say” on page 45 and his mature acts, which are also expressed when he stated, “Sometimes I act a lot older than I am—I really do—but people never notice it.” I am convinced that his references are contradictory because of his tragic past of his brother, Allie and him transitioning from child to man. Although in some situations, he acts as if he is twelve or as if he has been through everything an adult has, however it does not mean that this is who he is, but it is him struggling to stay in the past where his life was better when Allie was around and him struggling to find an intellectual conversation with someone way older than him.
ReplyDeleteHolden getting kicked out of four prep schools shows his rebellious side and as a teenager, this is completely normal, but is Holden being a rebel to the extent? Absolutely not. However, Holden’s actions in prep schools show me that prep schools are overrated and that Holden’s unique character does not belong there, not because he is kicked out, but because his individuality is way more unique than what they teach you in prep schools.
-Mikayla Abille
The fluctuations in his reference of his own age really caught my attention however I thought it was rather common for teens especially in this day in age.I noticed that whenever Holden encountered adult-like situations, he handled them fairly childishly. For example, when he was in the hotel, he tries to lose his virginity and get it over with, with a prostitute at the hotel because he is somewhat ashamed and embarrassed to still be a virgin. Which I believed to be childish. But, in the end Holden realised that sex should be between two people that sincerely care for each other and that he had no feelings for that prostitute. He asked her to leave and still paid her. In this case, this was a mature decision on Holden's part. We can see that Holden is completely stuck in the middle between innocence and maturity as an adult.
ReplyDeleteHolden's attitude and personality contradict the image of a student at a Prep School. He did not conform to the society of a prep and simply just criticised everything about the school and his life. And is probably the reason that he got kicked out for the fourth time. I could also tell that Holden was not really interested in the quality education, money and power. Holden claims that "They don't do any damn more 'holding' at Pencey than they do at any other school. And I didn't know anybody there that was splendid and clear-thinking and all". We can see here that Holden is being very pessimistic about the school and blaming his failure on the school, but I believe that this is untrue because everyone else didn't get kicked out for doing so poorly in school like Holden did, so i do believe that it was solely on Holden's part for his failure.
-Maya Ruane
Holden's references to age show that the way you look or the way you act can be misleading to your actual age. I can certainly relate to Holden because sometimes I act younger for my age, and other times I act older for my age. As a teenager, you are stuck between being a kid and being an adult. You have to learn how to mature, but at the same time, you are able to get away with actions that an adult would not. When Holden mentioned that "Sometimes I act a lot older than I really am-I really do-but people never notice it", I could feel his frustration because he also said that people tell him to act his age, and he gets bored when they tell him that. I also found that Holden tends to horse around quite frequently, and therefore, deviates from the "splendid, clear-thinking" young man he is suppose to be as a prep boy. I believe he acts out this way because he has been exposed to the ugliness of the real world, and does not accept that he will one day have to be a mature and responsible adult.
ReplyDeletePency Prep school's motto; "Since 1898 we have been melding boys into splendid, clear-thinking young men", shows the stereotypical "perfect" young-men prep boys are intended to become. I believe Holden mocks the motto because he doesn't think that Pency Prep lives up to its motto, since to his eyes there are only about two people that do. I consider Holden as an outsider in the preppy society because he doesn't seem to care that he has been kicked out of four prep schools, or that his grades are far below sufficient. Holden's rebellious actions against being a typical prep boy can also be seen as influential, because he stays himself and does not become a phony.
-Shalin Nirmal
I have to agree with most of my peers when they say that Holden is stuck at a stage, in his teenage years, where he does not fully know whether he should act as a kid or as an adult. Personally, I could relate with Holden, as can most teenagers, because were stuck between wanting to have fun and not wanting to come off as childish. I also have to agree with my classmates when they say that Holden encounters adult like situations and responds to them with childish actions. For example, not telling his parents he got kicked off from another school seems childish to me because his parents could have helped him out, and probably helped him enroll in a different school. It is completely evident that Holden does not really know who he truly is.
ReplyDeleteAs regards to Holden being kicked out of so many prep schools, I believe that this could relate back to the topic of rebellion, as most students have mentioned in previous posts. When I think of Holden, a preppy look doesn’t really come to my mind. Holden isn’t really someone to follow rules or much less someone who creates a perfect image of him for society, like most preppy guys do. I really think that Holden is trying to prove some kind of point by rebelling so much and getting himself kicked out of so many schools, like if he wants everyone to know that if he gets kicked out of one school it doesn’t matter because there a hundred others who will accept him.
I agree with my peers that holden’s level of maturity varies depending on the situation and who it may involve. He has this immature mindset when in school and around other that are actually his age but when he is out talking to older women he changes in a way to help appear older. Such as when he was talking to Mrs. Morrow on the train, Holden showed her his grey hair to help prove that he was actually older than what she believed. Age seems to be a common theme to help define different aspects. Whenever Holden went to a club his age was brought up because of how he couldn't order a drink. I think J. D. Salinger did this to show that something is obviously off with Holden and its not till the end that the reader will understand why that is.
ReplyDeleteWhen I think of a preparatory school I have a preconceived notion that the students there are both sophisticated and rich. Like previously stated by the other students it seems the J. D. Salinger made Holden attend a prep school as a way to show irony. When attending these types of places you have to show some maturity and dedication because it is true that these schools will lead you on the path of going to a high ranking Ivy League school. Holden was a kid who seemed he never wanted to grow up at times or just wasn't ready. I believe that Holden in general is just a confused a teen that is having to deal with a lifestyle that he isn't too fond of or comfortable living.
-Alyssa Ariza
I agree with many of my peers who have commented on the behavior of Holden Caulfield regarding immaturity and maturity. As he himself had stated that at times he acts younger than his own age, in fact he does, as our protagonist had acted quickly without thought in ways that reveals his immaturity. My own personal understanding and evaluations of prep schools across the globe conclude in the formality, strictness, and stereotypical behaviors of the students at the schools. Students who attend these schools deem to be more superior intellectually and would appear to be more formal and polite. But, I have found the attitude and behavior of Holden to be in fact intriguing, as stated in an earlier post by Mr.Rodriguez, in that he is a rash, troublesome, a typical teenager of our time, but not of the time period this novel takes place.
ReplyDeleteHolden Caulfield had appeared to have several instances throughout the book in which he reveals his child-like behavior, where he acts not of his age. I am convinced that our protagonist has several mental issues that affect his overall behavior and his actions. With this, our main character seems to think at a matured level at some occasions, but depending on the situation at hand, Holden sets aside his own logical implications and act irrationally. I had hypothesized that his behavior had initiated due to his younger brother Allie’s death. As known, Holden has now been kicked out of four different prep schools, behavior of which isn’t popular for those who attend prep schools. With the mental complications that Holden faces, our character tends to be troubled with the idea of maturing and facing his own responsibilities.
Also, as stated by several of my peers, we all can relate to Holden as we ourselves are maturing each and every day, but at times we may act similar to elementary schoolers and middle schoolers depending on the situations we face. We all act differently, some may act rational on some occasions, some may not. As we are about to begin our senior year, our last and final year, we will continuously reflect upon our high school life, reminiscing the good times, and remembering the bad times of which we had acted immaturely. Approaching the end of our high school career, we will see growth within ourselves, we will notice how much we have matured, and hopefully we will hold on to that maturity, act responsible unlike Holden.
-Rendell Miguel
It is quite interesting that Holden constantly says that he is old enough, but at times says he is immature and young. When it comes to scenarios like when Holden visited the Lavender room, I feel like he wants to embrace his maturity although he is underage to benefit from the circumstance (purchasing alcohol). Therefore Holden uses his age to justify his actions, whether he is making a mature decision, or a care-free one.
ReplyDeleteI also agree that this makes Holden relatable because as teenagers there are still times where we are childish or immature. Personally, there are times where I make some risky deductions and I remind myself that it is okay because I am still "young" and developing my knowledge and expanding my experiences. In a sense I feel like I use my age as justification for my actions.
Regarding the reputation of prep schools, and the regulations which are attributed to them, I could say Holden does not respect the schools values, or moral standards. After being kicked out of several prep schools it is evident that Holden is rebellious and lives off his own terms, while offending his peers and teachers.
-Cassandra Hernandez
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteRyan DasmarinasJuly 7, 2016 at 10:55 PM
ReplyDeleteAfter reading my peers comments, I too agree that Holden constantly addressing his age is due to him not knowing when to act mature or not. This also represents the reoccurring theme that Holden represents the 21st century teenager even though this book was published in 1951. Teenagers today, even at Olympian, act immature on a daily basis and don't know the right time when to act mature. This concept goes with Holden as well. For example, Holden was being immature while insulting Stradlater while visiting Pencey and for yelling at Sally for not wanting to go out of town with him. Holden is unable to control his emotions at times and just goes with the flow, even though going with the flow may end negatively for them, which they did in Holden's case, with Stradlater beating him and Sally leaving him alone at the bar.
In response to Holden being constantly kicked out of prep schools, I agree with my fellow peers that this is a result of Holden's rebellious behavior. Prep schools were obviously not for Holden. Holden does not try in school, does not care about his grades, which is the biggest downfall even in regular schools. Being offered the best of the best quality at prep schools and Holden just throwing away that opportunity is sad and you can even view it as a waste of space in the readers point of view.
- Ryan Dasmarinas
First off, I also agree with my peers on the idea that the references to his age show his immaturity. However, I think that the fact that he acknowledges his own behavior shows somewhat of a transition between being an immature teenager to a mature adult. Just as all teenagers do, Holden wants to become more mature and have everything settled in his life, but at the same time, he also wants to embrace his youth while he can. For example, I want to be able to have a car and my own job in the near future, however I act childish sometimes and want to do stupid things for no logical reason. But then again it is normal for all teenagers to feel like that. Holden's situation is somewhat of a paradox because the fact that he is a teenager and not old enough to do certain adult things, leads to him acting more of a teenager.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, the fact that Holden was enrolled in a prep school intrigues me because it makes me wonder why he was placed in a prep school in the first place. I would assume that Holden did not voluntarily attend a prep school due to his slacking behavior, so I wonder if Holden was forced to by his parents in order to discipline him. Thus, I theorize that Holden being sent to somewhere he does not belong has only made his immature behavior become part of him.
Holden's refenerence to age appears to be as though any teenager can relate to him. I know for a fact that most teenagers, including myself can act mature in some moments and a child in other moments. For example when Holden makes fun of Sally he is being quite immature due to him not being able to control his emotions. Holden has also been a mature being, especially with his sister. Holden is always respectful to his sister and does not ever quite make fun of her, making it the mature thing to do considering I do make fun of my brother every once in a while.
ReplyDeleteWhen I hear the word prep school I think of a school that is basically a prison, in which you technically live there until winter and summer break. I believe that Holden has mahor troubles in prep schools and they obviously not for him due to his idea of being a rebel. Holden does not even try in school, which is a major issue that many students face. These instances are indeed true but they are also sad due to the fact that these students are throwing away their potential to be a great student.
Holden, as many teenagers can relate, struggles with his age as identifying himself as an adult in one instance and a child in another. This portrays a real issue in the teenage population today who are able to relate to this struggle, these teenagers find themselves acting childish as well as like an adult in other instances similar to that of Holden’s experiences.
ReplyDeleteThe story Catcher in the Rye uses the prep schools to illustrate the difference in ideas that Holden has compared to that of the average teenager during that time. As we see in Holden and his conversations with Ackley and Stradlater he is a rebellious teen that is out of the norm of the usual teen. Holden seems to try his hardest to move away from the preppy ideals and be his own individual self, which is a large shift from the traditional view of teenagers of the time and a movement towards the current teenager who are rebellious people maybe not in the exact way as Holden is.
-Cristian Hernandez
I have to agree with Cristian, many teen are at a point where they are starting to learn more about themselves. They are in between being a child and adult. There are times it is okay to act childish and there are times where it is appropriate to act more like an adult.
DeletePrep schools are to turn boys in to men, these school are exact opposite from Holden's personality. Even though Holden may dress like a prep boy his still finds a way to be unique, like his red hunting hat.
-Kyle Elecanal
As stated by my peers, Holden's reference to his age can be seen as immature. However, it is something that most teenagers can relate to. Most teenagers can act childish or mature depending on the situation that they are in. I think that Holden can be immature at times such as the time he got into a fight with Stradlater because he wanted to know what Stradlater and Jane did on their date. On the other hand, Holden can be seen as mature when he was going into the bars and acting like an adult. This all shows that Holden can be like a child or an adult depending on the situation he is in. I agree with Jered Relopez in that Holden's references to his age shows his transition from an immature teen to a mature adult because as the story progresses, he's becoming somewhat mature.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the book, I wondered why Holden was enrolled in a prep school even after he was kicked out of other prep schools. Because he has been kicked out of so many prep schools, it is making me believe that he is being forced to go to a prep school by his parents. It is evident that Holden does not care for his education and would rather be a rebel and live by his own rules.
-Janessa Pujeda
I think that the fact that Holden is a preppy privileged teenager who is unsatisfied with the society he lives makes the story even more ironic and interesting. His use of language and actions seems to make him appear like the typical teenager going through the struggles of finding his true identity. But as the book develops, it is revealed that Holden's problems are much more than that. The reason that Holden is not able to get a hold of himself is not because he is immature but because he seems to be affected by the death of his little brother Allie. Holden describes that after Allie's death his mother has become nervous and edgy, which is how Holden acts. I think Holden is afraid of moving on with his life because he does not want to leave or forget the memory of Allie.
ReplyDeleteHolden hatred towards the phoniness of adulthood makes him feel isolated, which leads him to making bad decisions. This appears to be a cycle where when he decides to make interaction with people he always finds something that makes him angry with society and that leads him to making dumb decisions, which never turn out good and makes him hate people even more. A good example with this is on his date with Sally.
Holden also mentions that life is a game. Although he appears he is on the winning side because of his privileged life, he claims that in reality he is on the opposite side because no one seems to understand him and he feels lonely and depressed most of the time. It makes Holden a significant character because he reveals that even though you can have it all, it sometimes isn't enough because it's about who you are that matters not what you have. This is Holden's ideal that makes him distinguished from anyone else during that time period. It is similar to "The Great Gatsby" which Holden mentions is his favorite book.
Ever since the beginning of the novel almost everyone that Holden encounters like his friends, teachers, classmates and fellow New Yorkers are “phonies”, disguising artificial and self-interested traits with amiability. Many of these characters that Holden identifies as phonies are traditional, are in a quality education, are wealthy, have power and influence. All of these things associate with prep schools, and Holden is not a big fan of prep schools. So in a sense to Holden prep schools are phony.
ReplyDeleteWith this one can see Holden as a rebellious teenager for that time period. One who sees society as materialistic, shallow and insincere, all traits of a phony. Holden is different than most other teens, in the way that he sees the norms of that time, like prep schools, as odd, corrupting and pretentious. Holden is a character that pursues an enclave of freedom and innocence but resists the efforts of adults to educate and mold him into the standards of the time. He asserts his own status through a different style that does not conform to the norms of that time. With this Holden constantly feels lonesome and isolated, because he is different than the normal teenager, instead he is a teenager that represents a new culture way different than the preppy one represented in the book. Holden knew that he did not fit in with the prep school tradition of the time and with this he finds his own sense of identification which can sometimes him feel isolated and different.
-Camila Lautz
Through the first seven chapters of this novel, i've linked Holden's moments of maturity and impotence with some of the past events he's faced in his life. Some of those vents which clearly take a toll on one's mental state would be, when he lost his brother Allie at such a young age. Holden has learned to be dependent by attending these prep schools which is why people might say he acts older than his age, but, his troubled mental state might be the reason why he might act quite childish at times. Being away from your family, losing a sibling at a young age, and being kicked out of several prep schools have certainty impacted Holden's sanity. He seems to be mentally lost at the moment, which is why his maturity is so contradictory.
ReplyDeleteAfter analyzing the prep links Mr. Rodriguez posted, I have now realized why Holden has such trouble associating his peers at Pencey prep. Holden is the total opposite of a preppy student which might also be the reason why he's had such little success in the previous prep schools he's attended. The ordinary prep should always fake a smile and dress in the fanciest clothing, throughout the novel Holden doesn't seem to care much of what others think of his clothing nor his physical appearance. Holden used a red hunting cap and has never faked a smile, he does not seem to fit with the typical prep student which is why he has troubles connecting with his peers.
-Roberto Sevilla
Caulfield's age references obviously appear to be quite antithetical. He explains how he can demonstrate both a childish side and a mature side you can say. I as a teenager can truly connect with Caulfield and I am positive that numerous classmates, can also connect with Caulfield. I personally behave devilishly mature in certain situations, but I also act childish when appropriate. Anyhow, Caulfield in my opinion, always displayed both behaviors while in different occasions to try to fit in. I feel like he approached situations and people with both behaviors to find the most appropriate, and most importantly, to try to connect and better understand people.
ReplyDeleteTo answer Mr. Rodriguez's second question, from the start of the novel I questioned myself why Caulfield was enrolled in such high- educated prep schools, since he did appear to be a very careless teenager from the beginning. After reading some of my peers responses I was able to fully comprehend that in fact, the prep schools totally contradicted who Caulfield truly was. He certainly was not the typical white and rich teenager found in most of these prep schools. Relating back to the first question, Caulfield undoubtedly aimed to show a more childish behavior rather than mature, this being because during this time period not all teens had the privilege to attend these prep schools and the fact that Caulfield selected to go down hill by purposely failing, just truly reveals how rebellious Caulfield is.
-Yaressy Garcia
Addressing the fact Holden makes comments regarding his age, but to us as readers there seems to be a confusion on what his age really is; I believe he does this to point out another aspect that makes him different. This aspect being that his behavior does not align with his age. He apparently claims he does not fit in for his age, as he never has; sometimes making comments that are too childish, or acting more mature than one his age would. Being that he is telling the story from a futuristic perspective, I can personally assume he was sixteen years old when the story begins, and that age for him was one in which he found himself being an outsider, including because of the way he acted.
ReplyDeleteAlso, on the point about Holden being part of a prep school, to me it seems he is pressured to be a prep being he attends such a school, and that again has him conforming to the world around him. I have heard from first hand sources about schools like Pencey, and the type of people that attend there; and how they definitely create a very different environment than public schools.
In these schools, students are required to act in alignment with their social status, meaning respectful, highly-educated, and mature. Also, their clothes and activities symbolize the message a high-educated prep school intends to give off. Uniform implies parents have money to provide for their children in a school that has an appropriate attire for children. Activities like fencing are respected and in fact it is not a common sport to be a part of, as it would most usually not be offered in public schools before and even now. Therefore, Holden is another student that is pressured to represent his family's social status and he has to conform to characteristics that fit a proper prep student.
This makes me conclude that in fact Holden does not want to conform to the norms set by most prep schools he attends, and he wants to be nothing more than "the catcher in the rye", the boy who saves other children from having to conform to all restrictions, including the adulthood characteristics.
I made this assumption as I looked into the meaning of the novel's title and specifically related it to the moment in the novel when Holden points out to his sister Phoebe, "I'd rather be the catcher in the rye and all."(Page 191)
Holden to me symbolizes a teenager who only does not want to have to conform to certain norms as he grows up, but he finds he does not want others, like children, to fall into the pressure of having to fit in as they transition from youth years to adulthood.
-Ana Hernandez
Throughout the book Holden seems to have issue with age. He keeps talking about different aspects of age like how old he was at that time, how old he acts, and how old people think he acts like. He says he acts younger than his age and that when he acts older nobody notices, which makes me believe that Holden doesn’t like to be seen as a child. Also, even though Holden attends Pencey, which is a prep school, he does not seem to have that preppy style or attitude. Prep schools are attributed with quality education, tradition, money, etc., but Holden’s rebellious attitude is not what is expected from a student from this type of school. Because of this, Holden does not fit in with the students at Pencey, nor with the school itself, nor with any prep school. This is probably the reason why Holden did not have many friends at Pencey and why he was kicked out of so many prep schools.
ReplyDelete-Cynthia Rosas
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ReplyDeleteAs a student who is about to become a senior, I can relate to Holden in his personal struggle of whether he is still considered as a child or a grown up.
ReplyDeleteBeing a teenager is an annoying and awkward stage, and is accurately portrayed in Holden's struggle to determine what HE is. Holden continuously talks about his concept of how mature he believes he is to show the internal struggle that all teenagers feel in the process of maturing into adulthood. At one end of the line, parents and teachers 'baby' teenagers, trying to hold their hand and guide them through because they are still young and have yet to learn. These habits bring out the immature side of teenagers. On the other hand, society pressures teenagers into thinking that as soon as they leave high school, the 'real world,' lays upon them, which leave teenagers to think that they need to be mature as well. This internal 'tug-o-war' is seen through Holden's thoughts of how he believes that he can be mature at times, but also extremely immature for his age as well.
As I was reading my fellow classmates responses as well as Mr. Rodriguez's post, I was able to deepen my understanding of how preparatory schools are ran. I admired Quentin Cruz-Boyer's elaboration on what a prep school actually was, and found the connection between why the fact that Holden had been sent and kicked out of several prep schools was important to the novel. As Quentin states, the purpose of the establishment of prep schools are to, "...prompted leading figures to force their children to follow in their footsteps no matter their own personal desires." Similarly, Holden's dad will not give up on Holden attending a prep school in hopes that he too will become as successful as he was. This pressure simply fuels Holden's rebellious nature.
-Jennifer Ma
I agree with what you described as an "internal 'tug-o-war'" happening within Holden's and most teenagers' minds, as we try our best to adapt to the sudden transition into becoming adults.
DeleteI would like to add on to Holden being forced to attend a prep school. He didn't fail just because of not being intelligent enough, Holden flunked out of many prep schools simply because he didn't care enough to maintain his grades. His parents choice of making him go to various other prep schools after being kicked out is their way of forcing their pressures onto him. Add the fact that Holden flunked out simply because he didn't care enough to maintain his grades, and we get the idea that Holden cares not about the pressures being forced onto him, making him even more of a rebel than what we perceived him to be.
-Josef Urrete
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ReplyDeleteAs I read through the book I increasing become more interested at what age Holden really thinks he is. He is very impulsive and can fall victim to many events that may influence many wrong decisions and he definitely seems very immature to me. Even though this immaturity is very apparent, at times I see Holden as a mature person, although this is only at certain moments. An example of this would be when he divulges the death of Allie through leukemia. I thought this was very interesting how he would talk about the death of his brother even though it was very apparent how that experience still haunts him. I think all the references towards age and growing up really make this book interesting because it makes me reflect on my own age and how I am growing up myself. Although I may be very different compared to Holden, I find myself to understand his circumstances, even if it is not to the full extent of his experiences.
ReplyDeleteI think the concept of prep schools in the Cather in the Rye is to raise and make successful students who can enter into the 'real world' with an apparent advantage. Holden is the complete opposite of what prep schools mean to do. I think by portraying how rebellious Holden is shows that individuality is still a major factor that cannot be taken away from certain children. In my opinion, prep schools take away a certain amount of individuality, and this is very distasteful for Holden. Holden does not want to conform to what society expects of him, resulting in many irrational decisions and actions.
-Rejiryc Perez
One thing that I was sure as I read through the book is that Holden does not believe that the world understands him fully. He says, "...sometimes I act like I'm about thirteen..." but at the same time he mentions, "Sometimes I act a lot older than I am--I really do--but people never notice it." He thus acknowledges that he has many ages that he puts on, and figures that the society will not be able to tell the age that he truly is inside.
ReplyDeleteThat brought me to ponder what exactly was his age that he believes he was, just as Reji mentions in the above entry. Due to the lack of experience and incomplete comprehension concerning the responsibilities of age groups during the late 1940s, I would like to make a judgement based on the age groups in contemporary society. Today, the thoughts and actions of Holden may match that of 18 years-olds. They are expected to begin taking responsibilities for their actions, yet the society does no precisely view them as adults.
To answer the question about the effect of illustrating Holden's life as a prep school student, the details concerning his life as a preppy allows the readers to witness the utmost outrageous nature of his rebellious thoughts and view point. Because he was brought up to be the elite of the elites, many would expect him to act like a gentlemen the schools hoped to mold him to be. However, his ideas are radical and raw to the people then, and for the supposed-to-be-elite to show that provides a greater emphasis. Furthermore, one can also wonder what had caused a young adult like Holden, who is not thought to have gone through much troubles due to the wealth of his family, to have so much dissent when it came to the society and different kinds of people around him.
In reference to Cynthia Rosas, I completely agree with Holden's behavior on terms of growing up and what the future holds. It seems to me that the topic makes him, in little words, uncomfortable. This could possibly be for the fact that he is a rich boy attending a "preppy" school and meant to be a "preppy" student, making him feel that he has no place anywhere for always been set up in places he does not feel right in. To prove his uncomfortableness with the conversation of his future, you could see how he reacted to Mr. Spencer asking him what he was planning on doing now that he is dropping out of his fourth school. To put it simple, he just does not know who he is and where he belongs in a world surrounded by power, wealth, and status. Due to his eccentric personality and his completely opposite attitude that a preppy should have, he has a difficult time making friends and being understood. I can only imagine how he must feel towards his family (his rich brother) that could make him resent the rich society so much.
ReplyDeleteLike many of my peers have stated, the topic of age is frequently referenced within the first 50 pages of the book. However, many of Holden's statements pertaining to his age and his actions tend to contradict themselves. One moment he is stating that he acts older than he really is, then the next he admits that he can act like a 12 year old. However, I feel this attitude is common amongst teenagers. You are too old to act like a child, but too young to act like an adult. It is a common idea. However, Holden tends to do things which only come with being an adult, such as drink and smoke, while acting rather immature. I believe this then reveals the idea that Holden is open to the idea of becoming an adult due to the benefits which come, but is not willing to face the responsibilities which becoming an adult entails. I believe the atmosphere prep schools provide are a main factor into this flawed logic. Those who attend prep schools usually come from wealthy, high-society backgrounds. Holden, on the other hand, comes from a modest, wealthy family. I believe that by being surrounded by such prestigious individuals, it slowly starts to negatively impact your comfort. Holden tends to constantly point out flaws of those around him, and I believe he does this as a coping mechanism. By degrading those around him in his mind, it then allows him to view them as equal to him. His attitude may have evolved in an attempt to allow himself to fit in with those around him.
ReplyDeleteWithin the book, as Mr. Rodriguez and my peers have stated, Holden references his age in that he often switches between being a childish teenager, and a very mature one. In addition, in the novel, it seems as though Holden acts the way he does depending on the situation at hand. For example, his fight with Stradlater revealed that he can be a very immature person who pursues to instigate conflict. However, i know the fight could have been avoided if he would have just acted mature about the situation. As Janessa Pujeda stated, Holden also acts mature when in a bar to make himself appear as an adult. I feel that i can relate to Holden's behavior on the same level as all my peers can. In some situations, i can act very immature because i figure that it would be the only way to have fun, especially while i am still a teenager. Referring to Catalina Isip's statement, i too believe it is true that as us teenagers get older, it will be our choice to either continue to be immature, or face adulthood with mature characteristics. At this stage, Holden understands his behavior, however, it seems as though he thinks he may never fully transition into maturity.
ReplyDeletePrep schools in the novel are very significant because readers are able to recognize the kind of family Holden comes from. As Mr. Rodriguez said, only rich white kids attended prep schools before. That being said, readers can infer from the book that Holden Caulfield comes from a rich and powerful family. Furthermore, like many of my peers have said, the fact that Holden has been kicked out of four prep schools, i realize that his parents may only be keeping him in prep schools to maintain their social status and power. However, knowing that Holden is a unique person, him being expelled from other prep schools may be significant in that he just wants to be himself without anyone telling him otherwise.
The Catcher in the Rye is the coming age story of Holden. The whole book is shaped around his unhealthy way of trying to grow up and his relapses back into acting like a child. For every adult thing he does there are always consequences that put him in situations in which being a child is more comfortable to him. This relates to him also being isolated as he knows that he has to grow up but is only happy when he sees children or acts like one himself. At times, Holden admits to acting like a child such as the time that he cries and pretends to be shot after he was robbed and while having a conversation with someone that is in college, he states that he has an immature mind. Other times, he is in denial such as trying to drink underage and attempting to live on his own. Despite his efforts to grow up, he can’t give up the only thing that makes him happy. This is one of the reasons for his failure in school as he doesn’t want to grow up and have the responsibilities of an adult. He doesn’t want to fit in with the social norms; instead he wants to protect children from the realities of the world that he has experienced to become the catcher in the rye. At the end of the book, I believe Holden realizes that he can’t stay immature forever and instead of running away to the west, he plans to attend another school.
ReplyDeleteAs my peers have said before, Holden Caulfield references age because he is conflicted between entering adulthood and remaining youthful, an issue most teenagers can relate to. He attempts to act “mature” through underage drinking and smoking. However, he reverts back to his childish behavior when he couldn’t follow through with the prostitute, and pretends to be shot when he gets punched by Maurice. Like many teenagers, Holden desires some aspects of the adult life, like being independent, but he does not want the responsibility that comes with it.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the prep schools, they signify that Caulfield does not want to conform to the society of “phonies”. As Mr. Rodriguez said before, Holden lives in a time period where teens did not rebel or complain, they were basically all the same. Holden did not want to grow up and lose his individuality, a value that he prized throughout the novel. Relating to Catcher in the Rye, Caulfield wanted to save all the children from growing up and conforming to this seemingly monotonous society.
-Ahren Aguinaldo
The beginning reference about Pencey Prep School can be branched out to all of the prep schools that Holden has attended. This reference can be perceived as the social norm, but since Holden creates his own world full of phony aspects the opposite seems true for him- he is not a "clear thinking" young man but a conflicted teen. The other references about growing up can be attributed to Holden portraying himself as an unreliable narrator. This technique Salinger implements is apt for the book because Holden is illustrated as a troubled teen, which corresponds to the references where he constantly changes the age that he acts like. To sum it up, Holden has set a standard to which he knows he is obviously a contrast to (making it satirical), and has began to develop the character of the conflicted teen that he carries out to many other situations.
ReplyDeleteWith the idea of the prep schools, we are able to identify the major difference in a normal teen at a prep school and the normal teen that Holden sets himself to be. In other words, a normal teen at a prep school dreams to go to an Ivy League school and continue to associate themselves with the elite class. On the other hand, Holden sets himself to be different- a teen who seems to be lost and does not have a set future. Like discussed before, Holden is someone who simply does not conform to the social norm, which allows him to develop that rebellious side of him that is more relatable to the modern teen.
-David Wilson
Recalling the first few pages of the book, Holden has used the phrase "that stuff bores me" or somewhere along those lines, multiple times. As others have stated within their comments, many of us can relate to Holden. The more we get older, the harder we have to work, its the cycle of life. While society has the expectation for young adults like him to act a certain way he goes against it, hence the common reference to Holden being a rebellious person. When relating to the author, I believe that the author included these numerous references to indicate how he felt about society and its standards.
ReplyDeleteAs stated by many above, Holden's background and his attitude go against everything that is expected from society. I agree that this idea of adding prep schools defines our character. We are able to infer that Holden comes from a well off family. Holden also claims in chapter 10 that he is the only dumb one in the family (pg. 75) and notes that his siblings are quite smart. So not only does Holden feel the pressure of meeting the social norm but his family's expectations which many of us can relate to.
-Devin Wong-Magusara
Right from the start I figured Holden’s word would be unreliable but that didn’t bother me because he had a very blunt personality. Although at times I would wonder, what was the truth and a lie I realized it’s not that he is just lying to lie, he lies to understand himself like typical teens. When he lied to that mom on the train that was for fun, but when he kept lying about his age it represented his desire to be older, this confused me because doesn’t Holden want to protect children from losing their innocence so then why is he in such a hurry to do so? Holden thinks that because he does not fit in anywhere, is sometimes mature, drinks, cusses, smokes and has nearly a full head of grey hair he is an adult and yet he claims to still be a child due to his behavior when he is bored. In our standards wouldn’t this be a standard representation of an American teenager (sadly). In my belief Holden is a disillusioned boy who is hung up on becoming a mature adult in order to protect those younger than him when he in fact is still a kid. In regards to the second part, Holden’s dislike for preps is because like money he doesn’t feel much respect for them. Being a rich boy in a prep school also provides a perfect setting for Holden to break out of the social flow and become a rebellious teen. In a school of cookie cut boys Holden refuses to let go of his individuality and continues to explore it throughout the story.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the indecisiveness with the age, it is evident that Holden, like the rest of us, is stuck on wanting to proceed to adulthood and longing to go back to our childhood days where everything was handed to you, where it was worry free. But as we grow we realize change is fast approaching and it is a never ending transition that seems to get harder and harder as we learn to mature and grow up. Sandra Cisneros is a Mexican author which wrote a story on a little girl who was turning a year older for her birthday but realized that she was also doing other things because of her past ages. She was turning 13 yet that same day she threw a tantrum because someone stole her jacket. I recall that she said she was 5 that day due to the childish behavior. This reminded me of Holden's situation because although he is a certain, grown age, he has moments of a 10 year old, the thoughts of a 21 year old, and the actions of either an adult or a child. It is inconsistent. We are all 5 years old when we walk through the doors of Disneyland. We are all 18 when we go out and haven fun with our friends. There are times we act certain ways that categorize into ages because it reflects our behavior.
ReplyDeleteHolden is eminently his own person and has made it clear he won't change for anyone or anything. When I think of Prep schools like such, I do not mean to stereotype but I envision most people of the same race, with the same lifestyle and such. It all seems like the norm; somewhere Holden does not seem to belong; and not because of his appearence but because of his persona.
I agree with my peers in that Holden's contradictory statements of his age and maturity reflects his transition from his childhood to adulthood, along with the struggles he experiences from this transitioning. As a teenager, Holden proves to be a model character of someone going back and forth from adult maturity to childlike innocence showing off from his behavior, a typical phase of the teenage years. He additionally acknowledges his personality changes, as quoted, '...sometimes I act like I'm thirteen...' and 'I told him to go wash his own moron face--which was a pretty childish thing to say." His awareness of this situation displays a sense of growing up, and reaching that realization of the border between maturity and immaturity. At the same time, his continuous actions of childlike behavior brings out the specialty in his character, as he embraces this quality of adolescence.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the multiple prep schools that Holden not only attended but was kicked out of, I believe that this constant reference in the novel brings out his stark personality and rebellious attitude. Holden addresses the many "phonies" he encounters within his prep school, as well as the many reasons he disliked the schools and why he did not care for them. The strict, uniform and sophisticated description behind these prep schools emphasizes the comparison with Holden's character and even possibly the idea of not fitting in, as he continuously drops out.
Holden's repeated references to age represents his transition from adolescence to adulthood. He clearly admits that he can either be very childlike at times yet adult-like in other times. Holden's actions is very typical for a teenager. He seems to be unsure of when to compose himself as a mature man or as an immature kid. For example, when Holden instigates the fight with his room mate, he should have acted more maturely instead of aggravating his room mate. On the contrary, Holden behaves very adult-like when he helps erase the profanity tagged onto the wall at Phoebe's school. He also demonstrates maturity when he takes Phoebe to the carrousel.
ReplyDeleteHolden being expelled from multiple prep schools reveals his refusal to do what is expected of him. Him being kicked out of so many prep schools reflects him being a defiant teenager.
-Joseph Liang
In reference to Holden's age, I think that it is safe to assume that Holden is not a big fan. As you mentioned in this blog post, this can be seen in his interactions with Ackley. However, it becomes more apparent throughout the novel with his constant attempts for alcohol despite the fact that he is a minor. It seems as if Holden wishes to be older and not be defined by his age. He also pretends to act older when he is on the phone with the lady that he wants meet with for a "cocktail". Due to this evidence from the novel, I believe that Holden simply isnt comfortable with his age and the restrictions it places on his interactions with those around him.
ReplyDeleteAs for the prep schools, I believe that the author chose to have our main character come from 4 different prep schools to further highlight the characteristics of Holden. Quoting the blog post, it states how prep schools are associated with "tradition, a quality education, money, power, and influence". Focusing specifically on tradition, money and power, it is clear to see that none of these traits can be associated with Holden himself. If anything the mentions of Prep schools serves as a contrast to Holden himself.
-Eric Solorio
I agree with Sarah that Pencey Prep serves to contrast Holden’s character. Prep schools and preppies are usually labeled as pretentious. Immediately on page 4, Holden exposes Pencey in a way that proves this stereotype to be true. He says, “They advertise in about a thousand magazines, always showing some hotshot guy on a horse jumping over a fence. Like as if all you ever did at Pencey was play polo all the time. I never even saw a horse anywhere near that place.” Holden emphasizes that Pencey is a bogus school, which also contains fraudulent people. He explains to Phoebe on page 185, that Pencey is “full of phonies” since they did not allow Ackley to join a secret fraternity due to his distinct physical appearance. I believe that Holden not only dislikes the rejection that people receive for being different from the norm, but also serves as an important figure towards nonconformity in this time.
ReplyDelete-Mariza Zaratan
I agree with my peers that Holden often shifts his maturity levels. I think this is due to the fact that as a teenager, you are in a period where you are not sure how to act. You are still treated like a child but are expected to act more mature as you start to prepare for adulthood. This is a very puzzling time for many people. Holden, like many other teenagers, is struggling to cope with his life at this time. I can see where Holden is coming from because sometimes I really do not like being a teenager and I feel like I have no direction in life and do not understand what to do. Although, I feel like I handle things differently than Holden and much more maturely. I believe that Holden’s rebellious mentality is defined by all of the preparatory schools that Holden attends. It shows how he does not want to follow the social norm that is expected of him. He comes from a prosperous family because he claims that his father makes good money. It is also stated in the novel that his father was a lawyer. Even so, Holden still gets kicked out of several preparatory schools and continues to live life in a defiant manner.
ReplyDelete-Sarah Solis
It seems as though Holden tends to shift his level of maturity depending on the situation. I believe he tends to act immaturely when others judge his behavior. When people tell him to "act his age", he may become defiant, much like a child. If one were to look down on him for his age, he may attempt to act more mature. This all ties in with how sensitive Holden is with the expectations and treatment of others. When treated as an equal or without bias, it seems as though Holden is capable of behaving as a mature adult would, complete with logical thinking. Though, such occasions are very seldom in this novel.
ReplyDeleteThe expectations of prep schools seem to be a stark contrast to our protagonist, as well as- ironically- all the other preps Holden has described. While prep schools affirm that their students are the best and the brightest, our protagonist resents that mold. In fact, it is as though he believes that such well rounded individuals are nonexistent, and that anyone who behaves as such are all "phonies". Holden refuses to become a prep, and he detests anyone who try to behave as one.
-Kiara Mendaros
Holden is quite mindful of his age and the way he shows it. On the topic of prep schools, we can see that at his young age, he is lost. He has not managed to stay at one out of four prep schools without being kicked out. When I say Holden is lost, he is unable to navigate through his world of pain and suffering. I think that he is unable to because he is running away from many things and what fuels his hindrance is fear. Holden fears change, growing up, unpredictability, and the unknown. Aside from his fears, he is running away from maturity, phonies, and the real world. This lead me to believe that the reason why he never truly conformed to the system of prep schools was because he feared too much. He did not want to be like the phonies he detested nor did he want a lot of things, especially change. The significance of the prep schools and Holden's track record is that those schools were to instill adulthood by teaching influence, money, and power while Holden did not really accept that. He understood that there were privileged kids in prep schools that were raised by the very things that the schools were teaching. Holden knew just how corrupt Pencey Prep was when he says that even their advertisements were phony. He mentions that "they advertise in about a thousand magazines, always showing some hot shot guy on a horse jumping over a fence." Holden then reveals that he has never seen a horse near Pencey Prep, implying that even that was a lie. In addition to this false advertisement, he implies that even the caption underneath the picture was phony. In all, the fact that Holden is able to make himself aware of the "phoniness" works to prevent conforming the ways of those who run those very schools. His track record demonstrates his struggle of finding himself as well as fighting the life that he was born into.
ReplyDelete-Reese McElmoyl
As many of my classmates have stated, Pencey is the opposite of Holden's attitude. Holden symbolizes rebellion and teenage angst, while Pencey symbolizes conformity. Holden's belief that boarding schools are a breeding ground for "phonies" is a statement that can be proved by himself. After being expelled out of multiple boarding schools, Holden is not the man the boarding schools expected him to be. Boarding schools are also negatively perceived by the novel's narrator when Holden mentions James Castle, a boy who committed suicide at Holden's previous prep school. The suicide of James Castle represents the fact that even with money, power, and privilege, people cannot always be shaped into the perfect humans that the boarding schools attempt to make out of their students.
ReplyDeleteAside from using Pencey to further define the character of Holden, Salinger may have included boarding schools to show that power does not make always mean that a person is better than the other. Most of the students that attended boarding school with Holden, such as Stradlater and Ackley, are described with negative connotations. Stradlater and Ackley can be seen as metaphors of how wealth does not guarantee a better life. In this case, Stradlater and Ackley both attend Pencey, however Stradlater is more social and better looking than Ackley. Salinger seems to be stating that even with privilege and wealth, no person can buy success.
In regards to how the prep schools are relevant to Catcher in the Rye, it is obviously a contradicting element to Holden's personality. Most prep schools have strict rules and as Joey said, they symbolize conformity whereas Holden is a rebellious free spirit who does not abide by the rules. Salinger uses prep schools to symbolize social class and reveal that not all preppy students are perfect. What's more is that seeing as Holden has gotten kicked out of several prep schools, this also means that his parents have enrolled him in that many prep schools and have failed to try to conform Holden into being a good member of society.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to Holden's age I believe he is just another one of those immature teenagers. Later in the book Luce even tells him, "Same old Caulfield. When are you going to grow up?" (pg. 187). I have discovered that later in the book Holden actually finds happiness in child innocence. Such as his little sister Phoebe and her colorful imagination or the little boy who kept singing "if a body catch a body coming through the rye" (pg. 150). I believe that Holden doesn't actually begin to "grow up" until he goes through his violent experiences with Stradlater and Maurice the elevator guy. It almost seems as though Holden is in denial that he is getting older and that he has to mature as he gets older.
I would say that within the first 50 pages of Catcher and the Rye, we could say that Holden has not truly grown into his age group. He talks about all of the childish things he does, however there are certainly other childish things Holden does but does not realize or reflect on it. For example, I think it is extremely childish the way Holden lies to people just for the hell of it. Specifically, when Holden first left Princeton and he ran into Ernest Morrows mother and was telling her about how great her son was and what he was like at Princeton when Holden never even talked to Ernest. Him lying for no reason at all is childish. So I would say the references that Holden makes about himself, looking old but really being immature and childish are spot on.
ReplyDeleteNow as to the style of the preppy kids that go to these high end boarding schools, I think the description of these kinds of kids is vital in the story because the reader then naturally compares these characters to the main character, Holden. Considering the fact that Holden is a rebellious teen, the preppy kids help out a lot by showing the contrast between them and Holden, to emphasize his rebelliousness. This can be seen in the way they dress, talk, and react to situations. Holden also seems to have some very open thoughts that would break "status quo" in these preppy boarding schools.
-Isaiah Wilson
Holden is present in a prep school where their own slogan is “Since 1888 we have been molding boys into splendid, clear-thinking young men." Holden rather then representing his own school and being one of those "spending young men", he is a rebellious teenager that goes against the rules and only does what he wants to. Salinger reveals that in a prep school where students are meant to follow conduct and be attentive in all aspects, Salinger presents Holden, a character whom is the opposite of a well behaved student. The Catcher in the Rye gives the reader an understanding that the stereotypical view of a preppy student is not at all perfect. It is notable since throughout the book, Holden describes us many of his peers and their own phony personalities, letting the reader acknowledge that in a school filled with preppies, nobody is perfect, everyone has their flaws. Holden is the ideal example of a phony and is ironic since he labels everyone as a phony but himself. He believes to be mature at times but the truth is that he's just immature in almost all occasions; at making opinions, decisions, and in his very own actions. Although Holden does represent at times a more mature version of himself, he ends showcasing a teenager who still acts like a kid.
ReplyDeleteHolden is a young man trying to find himself, around the same age most modern teens are supposed to "experiment". What strikes me as different about Holden is that he is supposed to only be sixteen years of age. How is a sixteen year old capable of being out in the wee hours of the morning, drinking rum and coke? I realize that some conditions were more relaxed in the older times; however, every few chapters there is someone to remind me of how young Holden is.
ReplyDeleteFrequently, it is the women who cause us to question Caulfield's age. Morrow's mother mentions his young age when Holden asks her for a cocktail in the dining car. His age is brought up again with the prostitute; although, it is more subtle here. It comes to our attention that he is still a virgin and unaccustomed to the attentions of women, so when he requests the girl, he becomes so anxious that he just wants to talk instead. This is not to say grown men can be just as nervous in such a situation, but I don't think they would cry during confrontation with an elevator pimp either.
I believe all of these instances, where Holden tries to appear older than he is, stem from insecurity. He does not have a sense of where he belongs, and so, he tries to compensate by being "the man". His perspective as an outsider explains his outstanding rate of being "axed" from prep school. He tries to fight the expectations of someone his age, just to skip to the allotted luxuries of adulthood. He drinks, smokes, and talks about being a "sex maniac" to seem more mature, when in reality, he is as confused as all pubescent teens are.
Holden is a concrete model of all that the teenage years hold: discovery, struggles, and most importantly to this novel, rebellion. Holden was expelled from four different prep schools, roams the town at night, drinks, sneaks into football games, and just generally leads the life of a very rebellious teenager. It is often suggested that Holden partakes in such activities in order to prove to himself and others that he is mature for his age and can handle himself. This demonstrates the tough competition at prep schools, a life which Holden has become used to. Each child at his school has been forced to transform into "splendid, clear-thinking young men." This embodies the lifestyle that Holden and other boys at the prep school must endure in order to prove themselves as one of the best at the school. And while Holden may seemingly deny wanting to be the best at some points, it is obvious that he seeks to be competitive and mature. However, Holden's quite immature actions contradict his desires, leading him to be a sort of hypocrite, calling himself mature and then sneaking out in the middle of the night to drink or smoke. With this split between immaturity and maturity created in Holden, he embodies the American teenager, and many teenagers around the world.
ReplyDeleteWhile reading many of the post written by my fellow peers, there are many ideas I agree with. Such as, how he contradicts himself about his age and how he may act because he is still in his developing stages. However, I believe there is more to his character than just this teenage state that he is in. Holden contradicts himself frequently in the book, and justifies his actions. This pattern seems to indicate that he does not know who he is, or what he may want. He is confused and it is due in part of being a teenager as well as the journey of discovering himself. There is no doubt that he is very irresponsible and rash about his decision making, but that only adds to the idea that he is simply a teenage boy unaware of how to act and take care himself.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden makes references to his age I believe it is due to the fact that he doesn't want to be a kid anymore. He doesn't want to attend any more prep schools and wants to be allowed into bars and clubs without having to be asked what his age is. I think that in the age he is right now hasn't treated him well and this is why he wants to become older, and for the moment he is just acting older. In some of the quotes he confirms that he wants to become older, however in the other quotes he still proves to be a child. He acts and he says things that children would say and not grown and mature men. I think that Holden is trying too hard to become someone he isn't yet, and everything goes exactly the opposite as he wishes for. Frankly, I think he should just be the person he is without wanting to be someone older, he should enjoy the different stages of life he is going through, because if he doesn't he might regret it later.
ReplyDeleteI agree with many of my peers when they mention that Holden is against the concept of prep schools and what they are associated with. Prep schools are related with money, power, and the best education, however Holden shows to be against all of these ideas. He shows this by being a rebellious teen whose main goal is to be kicked out of prep schools, and who only wants to become someone older. He wants to avoid prep schools, he doesn't want to be the typical rich kid that gets and does everything he is willing to. Due to his actions I think that Holden wants to make a point, he doesn't agree with how society runs, he doesn't want to attend prep schools just because he has money, but because he deserves to be there.
Holden often changes his description of himself relative to his actual age. Often he switches from describing himself as acting immaturely and from acting very mature relative to his age. I believe that Holden changes his opinion of himself very often because he is at an unstable age and is having difficulty trying to understand himself. Holden may be the same often acting immature or mature because of his transitioning to adulthood and his unstable mental state.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, this may be also the case with the fact that Holden has been kicked out of 4 prep schools. We can be sure that Holden’s family is rich and later it is revealed that his father works as a lawyer. Most likely Holden is under the pressure of living up to his father’s expectations and is uninterested in following in his father’s footsteps. In relation to my previous claim, Holden may be in an unstable metal state because of his adolescence and has been expelled from another prep school which may have caused him to feel the need to run off on his own. His instability may also be the cause of his pessimistic and critical views on society around him which may give an overall explanation of why Holden acts the way he does.
-Seth Yves Perez
Holden is a teenager, confused with his emotions. not entirely sure what he is truly feeling. There are times were he acts like a complete child and at other times he seems like a very self dependent adult.
ReplyDeletethe reason behind this is he is neither, what I mean by this is that Holden is going through a confusing time in his life where he is transitioning away from being a child and into adulthood. The ways we can know this for sure is when he told us half his head is filled with grey hairs and he has a refusal of not wearing his hat. He is afraid of growing up, leaving his innocence behind him and never looking back. so to counter this he builds a wall between himself and everyone to have a sense of himself and pure innocence.
When it comes to the prep schools the mottos are always shaping boys into men, the only problem is that Holden does not want to be a man and have the responsibilities of one, he in fact just wants to be a child whom has nothing to worry about. something many people can relate to but unfortunately inevitable.
-Christian Viscontti
Looking at the situation that Holden has put himself in, being kicked from multiple prep schools, it seems to me that he is doing his best to prevent himself from reaching the next step: becoming an adult.
ReplyDeleteI feel as if he is prolonging his maturity through his childish acts and his disregard for having almost any success in his academics. Holden has made it obvious that he associates most adults with being phony and that he shows no liking towards them. Throughout the novel, Holden is confused about how to act, and his immaturity arises. The prep schools play apart in his character development because it represents a doorway into the adult filled world. Although Holden is seen doing several things that would be considered adult-like, such as acquiring a prostitute as well as staying out late going to bars to drink. He is attempting to escape this inevitable part of his life, yet he does not realize he is doing so.
The fact that Holden makes no little to no attempt to improve his academics is associated with his wish to prevent those younger than him to be exposed to the phoniness of becoming an adult, hence becoming a catcher in the rye. He plays a part in being an influence to kids who are clueless about what is to come in the future. The fact that the audience is meant to be teenagers in their adolescence is on purpose in order to play a part in what Salinger's message to the readers. Using the prep schools in comparison to a typical teenager at the time was meant to be an ideal reference for his audience. The trials and tribulations that Holden faced through his experiences in prep school influenced his view on those around him. Holden respects those who stand up for themselves and do out of the ordinary things because he envisions this ideal world where he saves those younger than him from being like everyone else. For example, he respects one of his previous classmates James Castle who maintained his opinion although he was bullied into changing it. Holden also respects his sister Phoebe with her being able to change his mind about leaving New York. She is an ideal person in his opinion, giving her constant praise and letting her influence his decisions.
Holden continues to have this personality which he defies what is to be considered normal for teenagers his age through looking for ways to influence others. In doing so, his readers are moved by his abnormal behavior and decisions that make him have a lasting impact on the readers.
-Kyle Maravillas
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DeleteHolden's constant references of his age throughout the novel reveal a significant quality of his, as well as a major theme of the novel itself. His inconsistent perceptions of his sense of maturity essentially reveal that he is somewhat insecure or emotionally unstable regarding his mental and physical age. Society and his peers are indirectly telling Holden different ways of how a person of his age should act, yet Holden holds his own beliefs regarding how he should or should not behave. For instance, Holden states, "sometimes I act a lot older than I am– I really do – but people never notice", but many of his peers, including Luce see him as very young and immature. These distinct perceptions presented to Holden ultimately blur his own perception of his age. As most of the characters in the novel urge Holden to grow up, it is apparent that he is experiencing even more stress with the transition into adulthood. His reluctance of leaving his childhood and innocence behind is reflected in his consistent "flunking" of various private schools. As Kyle asserted, this seems to be a method in which Holden prolongs his childhood in order to impede him from reaching adulthood.
DeleteI believe Holden's presence in a preppy environment is quite ironic given the fact that
Holden despises the "phonies". In the links provided by Mr. Rodriguez, it is apparent that the authors are implying that being and looking preppy requires extensive effort. It seems that many are trying too hard to achieve the preppy look and status and therefore qualify as what Holden calls phony.
-Nicole Isabelle
The way that Caulfield portraits his age varies through out the book, we see him act like a mature men and also a childish guy. This takes the reader to believe that Holden has not really found his real self. As a teenager I can connect with him, there are some times in which teenagers drop the ball and act childish sometimes to be funny, not many realize that they are growing up and therefore need to become mature role models. However I personally feel like Caulfield acts like a grown men only for the benefits, but he does not want to face the responsibilities that come with it. Holden tends to performs actions that are only to be committed by grown people for example his drinking and smoking habits, and what is worst is that he does not act like an adult, but instead acts like an immature child. By acting as if he were a different age makes him contradict himself.
ReplyDeletePrep schools are a symbol of high class, money, power and a quality education however Holden get kicked out of a prep school. First of all this comes to show that his family has money and that they are willing to spend it for a better future for Holden, however Holden does not realize the opportunity he is given he acts in a rebellious manner, he fails to many classes and in effect gets kicked out of Pencey. This comes to show that Holden will not change the way he is just to fit in.
Holden seems to actually want to grow up and be treated as an adult in order to match his appearance. However, he is conscious of the fact that he is still a child and acts like one. It is as if he cannot come to terms with what growing up entails yet keeps trying to do so. This dilemma of his makes him seem arrogant in some instances and makes his “adult” actions in Manhattan quite comical at times.
ReplyDeleteAs for the prep school, Holden seems to detest them. He calls all his peers “phonies” and doesn’t care about his studies at all. In my opinion this can be attributed to the dilemma I mentioned above. He thinks he is acting mature and handling things as an adult would but in reality is doing the opposite. Take the note he left the teacher at the end of his history essay: he thought admitting he knew nothing else and trying to make the Mr. Spencer not feel so bad was a mature thing to do, when in reality it made him look lazy and even more childish. Also, Holden sees people as “phonies” because he sees rowdy, immature and annoying people in everyone at a prep school know for prestige. He deems anyone not acting like they should (or acting too much like they should) a phony. And since people at the Pencey and the three other prep schools he went to were all “phonies” he felt no attachment to any of them.
-Liam Brewster
While reading many of the post written by my fellow peers, I agree with some of the ideas. Such as, how he contradicts himself about his age and how he may behave because he is still in his developing stages of life. However, I believe there is more to his character then just a rebellious teenage boy. Holden contradicts himself many times in this book, and justifies his actions. This pattern seems to indicate that he does not know who he is, or what he wants. He is confused on what he wants. Holden is just a teenager trying to find himself. There is no doubt that he is rash about his decision making, but that only adds to the idea that he is simply a teenage boy unaware of how to act and take care himself.
ReplyDeleteFrom my own opinion/point of view I think Holden does not believe that the world understands why and how we judges people and his other actions too, but in this same sense I see him as being possibly tactful and also clever in his actions about how life is taking hold of him now. I also noticed that his reference to age and growing up are immensely contradictory due to his childish acts as he expressed in on pages 45-50. Just as most teenagers in this Dane age I have discovered that Holden has some basic issues which he struggles with and cant mainly tell anyone about it. One of the most honest and respectful thing that I have noticed and I apply with on Holden's part is that he accepts that he has a flaw and has learnt or is still learning to accept that flaw. However the issue that is surprising me that Holden isn't just flowing what the society thinks of him now but he has flunked out of specifically four prep school which stand as a strategic and negative thing on his part too. But the most outrageous thing which I have noticed with him is that he is completely not only just isolating himself but now is irritable to corrections and help which I believe could possibly stand as a very big disadvantage on his part, but even with that he still has his emotional aspect just like every other person making it known to me that he might still be okay.
ReplyDeleteI stand to be corrected that its Holden's rebellious way to the world and mainly to his school is what this book is also trying to reveal to us. But the mot compelling part that might be hard for each and everyone of us to grab out of this book is that family values really because when it come to the occasion of drooping out of school we could see that in occasions of families with low income but as we all could easily depict Holden came from a decent and resound home, but as we could see it relates that its most children who are really privileged to come from a Golden background that try to end up mainly as nonentities in the society but it all relies on us ,just as Holden to all make our choices but they must and should be the right ones too.
I agree with my peers in that Holdens statements are rather contradictory since he does bluntly state that he is mature but also immature at the same time. He provides very contradictory statements when he claims that he acts younger yet he has gray hair. This seems to be a way that he is trying to show how he is transitioning and still learning how to grow up and mature. Although, this is very typical for a teenager to behave. As a teenager, we get pressured to mature and know what to do with our lives, when in reality we are still learning about ourselves and still don’t know the proper way to behave. Holden seems to still be trying to find himself and find a place to fit in. He begins to try to push himself into maturity by talking highly of others as form of respect while conversing with a classmate’s mother. Ironically, he actually is acting rather immature because he later says that he lied to the mother about the son.
ReplyDeleteAs we all have already known, Holden comes off as a very rebellious teenager. Prep schools are known to be an institution that has a stereotypical expectation, which shows through the behavior and intelligence of a student. This could be the author’s way of showing that not everyone can live up to people’s expectations and it somehow it always effects you. Holden clearly doesn’t fit the expectations of behavior and intelligence since he comes off rather different. The reasoning of its significance to the story is it is a perfect way to show how lost a teen can be when he is different from his surroundings. Since he spent so much time in prep schools, it also developed his character.
-Mikayla Lubong
I agree with many of my peers that through his contradictions of him being immature or mature, shows his internal conflict with growing up. He is at an age where in a few years he would be considered an adult. Due to his belief of his appearance making him seem like he looks older, he surrounds himself in an adult atmosphere, such as bars. The internal conflict is wanting to grow up, but being afraid to let go from those child-like experiences. Most of the time when he refers to himself as acting immature, or younger than his age was due to a negative experience or event. He associates his immaturity to prove his actions. As many peer have mentioned this state of being a teenager, is where most of us are or are going. We are confused of reaching adulthood, yet feel bittersweet about leaving the childish mentality.
ReplyDeletePrep schools, as mentioned, during this time period were attended by rich white teens.Due to their background the staff expectation of students is for them to act sophisticated and respectful. However in Holden's case he defies these expectations in every prep school he's been kicked out of. As mentioned but other peers he decides to not complete these expectations since the he believe the one who fall under the influence of doing what they are told are qualified as a "phony". Although he is constantly moving and changing physical, something he continues to do is being true to his beliefs. Yet by doing that he is still isolating himself. The outcome of prep schools is to mold the students to become respectable members of society.Especially those who are wealthy, and hold power.Keeping in mind that Holden is still a teenager he does not want to be grouped up, and seen as a cog in a machine.
Holden seems to have a lot of confusion regarding who he is and what he wants his peers to see in him. The motto of Pencey challenges Holden's experience in the school as a young adult, boasting that it produces "splendid, clear-thinking young men", which is obviously not true in Holden's case, who is constantly at war with his mature and immature states of being. Ackley and Stradlater also come with their own personal issues. Ackley has trouble interacting with others in general, and from his interactions with Holden and his roommate, you can see that he reads very little social cues, and can also be very immature, despite constantly reinforcing the fact that he is two years older than Holden. Stradlater seems more normal at first, but he too shows that he is trapped in this metamorphosis, unable to define himself as either a boy or a man. He is extremely self-centered, and seems to find his self-esteem by "giving it" to his many dates. Eventually, this infuriates Holden when Jane becomes involved, and in an interesting turn of events, both boys get into a sort of one-sided fight, where Stradlater is unable to hold himself back, and Holden encourages this. All of this is ironic, as it means that Pencey, despite its good reputation, does not produce the quality men it claims to. Throughout the novel, it also becomes apparent that Holden has a very negative view, of not only others, but also himself. When he narrates, it isn't in a derogatory tone, so to speak, but in a detached way, as if merely observing these traits, which piqued my interest. For instance, he'll say things like, "Sometimes I act twelve," or, "sometimes I act a lot older than I really am," without really meaning to brag, as if it were the most natural fact in the world. Holden's use of vulgar language also doesn't match well with my conceived image of his personality, and in my mind, is just a way to validate himself/ gain attention in others' eyes by becoming something different, and is also his attempt to broadcast his maturity, which he claims that nobody notices in him. I find it really interesting that the author chose to depict Holden as a prep, with the behavior of a delinquent. Obviously his parents had high hopes for him, and his mother, he claims, would be hysterical if she found out he was expelled from Pencey. I see it as the authors way to either criticize the way prep schools deal with problem students, or to mock the double personalities the students are forced to adopt to appear more appealing than they actually are, with Holden being the breaker of that stereotype.
ReplyDelete-Kayla Manness
I agree with my peers on the fact that Holden contradicts himself frequently about his age. I believe this is because Holden is still in his awkward transition from being a child to becoming an adult. Holden is still confused about where he fits in the world because he still does not fully understand who he is and what he wants. I think Holden acts immature in the beginning of the novel because he does not want to grow up and begin to have responsibilities. While Holden is in his developing stages of life he begins to contradict himself on the fact if he is mature or immature. This is because he sates "I sometimes act like I'm twelve", but other times he says "Sometimes I act a lot older than I am--I really do--but people never notice it". I believe he contradicts himself because he is still learning how to grow up and how to be mature. Towards the end of the novel I noticed that he becomes mature because of what he wants to do, which is be the catcher in the rye. He does not want to be immature, which is to want to be seen as a hero by the public. He is mature because he is humble and does not want to be noticed while he helps children.
ReplyDelete-Dariana Nieves
While reading the book I could tell that Holden could not decide whether he was acting to old for his age or to young. This is all part of being a teenager, you are stuck between being a boy/girl and a man/woman. Holden contradicts himself constantly when speaking about his age. I like when Holden does this because it makes most readers, teenagers, connect with him. Since Holden is constantly lost throughout the book trying to find who he is I fell like this way of being contradictory is showing his way of being mature and independent. Holden realizes when he acts childish or grownup, I feel that this is his way of telling the audience that throughout your teenage years you can choose the age you want to act since you are already stuck in between being a child and being a grown up. The type of character I see Holden as is a rebellious teenager, this is shown when he is kicked out of so many prep school. I feel that this is his way of saying that all these prep school are overrated and that being preppy is something Holden does not want to be. Holden's choice of slacking off and later being kicked out of prep schools shows us how wealth doesn't always mean successful due to the fact that Holden comes from a wealthy family and ends up in a mental hospital.
ReplyDelete-Briana Nieves
ReplyDeleteHolden’s constant reference to age is highly contradicting, everything has its purpose therefore there is a meaning to the authors choice of structure. I noted that the textual evidence Mr. Rodriguez utilized were throughout different parts of the novel. Given that, it is essential to identify the type of atmosphere Holden was surrounded by in order to fully comprehend why he would classify himself that particular age. When he means that for his age he acts younger, it implies that Holden has not fully matured and when he mentions this in the novel he is introducing himself meaning he develops some sort of characteristic that we as the readers can use to comprehend his character as a whole.
Given that Holden has been kicked about by four different prep schools, reveals a lot about his character. Prep schools overall seem too strict and have extremely high expectations for their students. Clearly Holden does not fit into those aspects because he chooses not to do his work because he is pretty careless when it comes to academics. I believe he chooses to not apply himself rather than being incapable because prep schools keep Holden and many other students in containment. It must be very frustrating for Holden. Holden failing out of multiple prep schools could possibly be a call for attention to his parents or the authorities that he needs help and compassion.
-Natalie Aguilar
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ReplyDeleteWith age, as the numbers increase a person is expected to be a certain way and no longer permitted to act in some manners. Holden makes many references to this and does not define his age with a representation of what type of conduct he must exhibit, but rather a series of personas that he and others decide to be on certain occasions. Knowing that he and his peers are mostly white, priviledged, wealthy boys one can infer that the pressure to "act your age" is heavier.
ReplyDeleteI interpret the fact that Holden refuses to conform to these norms as simple teenage rebellion. Whether it is for attention, or out of pure opposition to the expectations. Something reoccurring in the novel is denial. As one of my peers mentioned, in pg 8 he reveals that he was a heavy smoker and that despite the need for several doctor checkups he is "pretty healthy".
Being surrounded by preppies, it is likely that he is accustomed to a materialistic view of the world, or at least from those around him. This is important because teenagers dont have to grow up wealthy to rebel and be expelled and smoke. However, what sets him apart is the fact that the circumstances in which he grew up gave him a sense of superiority with which he looks down in peole with. Growing up knowing he is upper class, whether he rejects that or not, he has been shaped and influenced and turned him into a supercilious, rebellious teenager.
Holden's mistakenly associates maturity with age. A person can seemingly be mature in some aspects and not the other. While Holden points out things that he may find childish, he is also immature in other aspects of life such as in school or relationships. A person's adolescence is pivotal to his growth due to the fact that it is a period of time in which many explore the unknown and discover the harsh realities of life. Maturity comes with life experiences that even adults lack at times, not just the youth.
ReplyDeleteMoreover, Caulfield's attendance at Pencey Prep reveals a lot about his social background and upbringing. Especially in the 1950's, when Prep schools were associated with the wealthy elite and future leaders of the nation by tradition.
The relationship of prep schools and Holden foil each other because as we can see, Holden believes his rebellious and immature nature, differ from what Pencey Prep are trying to make of them- mature, clear-thinking, gentlemen. Holden constantly mentions the concept of age to show the readers that there are times where we have to “grow-up”. As we grow up, we are still in the process of learning and maturing. When you are a teenager, it is a difficult period where you are finding yourself and becoming your own person, and the time where you’re transitioning from a teen to an adult, which is why I think that Holden is repeatedly torn between acting too young or too old for his age.
ReplyDeleteAcknowledging the fact that Holden got kicked out of Prep School, it shows how he is the complete opposite of what the school is looking for in a young adult. I believe that prep schools symbolize wealth and privilege because they are trained to attend Ivy League schools, such as the ones Mr. Rodriguez mentioned- Harvard, Yale, Brown, etc. The contrasts in ideals demonstrate Holden’s unique personality and outlook on society at the time.
I believe that for Holden acting younger than his actual age yet maintaining maturity he's just caught between adulthood and childhood. I feel like most teenagers can relate to Holden's behaviors of acting younger than our own age and messing around. I also think that we get caught between being a child and becoming an adult and in a scenario like this we don't know which role to play.
ReplyDeleteAs my peers have stated, Holden's references to age are contradictory shown by his actions in certain situations. Although he is the one deciding when he acts out, most times he has already put thought into it. Most teenagers nowadays can relate to the idea of being in between childhood and adulthood. Both acting childish at times and when necessary, act mature enough for our age. He realizes when he is immature however, this is his way of saying how independent he is. His rebellion and immaturity shows that he is unprepared to grow up. Holden is shown to be an outsider in the novel because Pencey is the complete opposite of his personality. Prep schools are known to have quality education, money, power and great influence however, Holden's ideas are simply not what Pencey wants within a student. Holden does not meet their expectations but it's to show that society's image of these prep schools aren't always the case. His friends Ackley and Stradlater also show that the standards for prep schools don't apply to everyone attending boarding schools.
ReplyDelete-Alessandra Gatchalian
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ReplyDeleteI can understand why Holden may refer to his age because many people criticize him for being immature and he could possibly be insecure about what people see in him. Many young boys have a reputation for being naive and because he is rather close to becoming a young adult, he often comes to a realization that he needs to start acting in a more thoughtful manner. Although there are many incidents where he teeters back and fourth about how he wants to present himself but at most times, it is acceptable to want to explore the different aspects of your personality as you grow up.
ReplyDeleteI feel as if Sanlinger purposely wanted Holden to attend a prep school in order to show the drastic contrast between "rebellious teenagers" and the typical expected version that teenagers back then were held accountable to be. I feel as if Holden symbolizes unrefined teenagers who have difficulty being limited to what society envisions them to become.
-Camille Taylor
The very things that a Prep. school is associated is what Holden seems eager to get away from. He dislikes how the upper-class or the rich act on a daily basis. He hates the fact that he is surrounded in a "phony" environment. His dislike for those around him is evident in his expulsions from four various Prep. schools. All of which, as mentioned above, house the rich's sons and daughters. He also despises how Pencey gives the impression of molding boy into exceptional young men. "They advertise it in about a thousand magazines, always showing some hot-shot guy on a horse jumping over a fence”.
ReplyDeleteThis is one thing that angers Holden about the school. Which is how it attempts to portray. Its self as an exemplary school that creates bright young men. When the reality is that many of those who attend Pencey. Are the Polar opposite of the ideal guy posted on the add. He even went as far to save that a large population of those who attend Prep. schools are dishonest thieves. They will not be molded into leaders. Instead they will be the products of a nepotism and will simply strive to preserve their wealth and social standing.
As has been stated before me, Holden's maturity and sense of self as he grows up has been largely impacted by the way society is trying to make him conform. He is both mature, in the sense that is he very independent, and immature, as evidenced by his getting into fights and constant horsing around. But no matter how he acts, Holden does not seem to fit in anywhere he goes, not at Pencey, the hotel, or even the club. He acts out in ways that, at the time, was highly irregular of a teen in his position. He comes from a well off family, since he can afford to go to affluent schools, stay at a hotel, and spend some money as he pleased, but he does not behave in a polished, "perfect" way.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of how all these prep schools play into the novel, I think it shows what young people are supposed to be and represent: money, power, affluence, education, and most of all tradition. Holden represents a new breed of people who do not stick to what society expects and breaks tradition to become their own person.
Holden’s references to age and growing up suggest that he behaves and thinks like a young child, but his life experiences have caused him to look much older. Because Holden acts like a child, he is treated like a child. I think Holden is insulted when people tell him to act his age, because he is just trying to make up for the innocence he lost when he was younger. He did not have time to act like a child, because he was already taking care of his two younger siblings, later dealing with the loss of one, and with the emotional trauma of flunking out of so many prep schools.
ReplyDeletePrep schools at the time were mostly attended by wealthy white children, and Holden fits into this category. However, what separated Holden and the rest of his preppy friends was their thought process. Everyone at Pencey was concerned about their education, money, and their influence. All of these kids were destined to have a bright future, except Holden. Pencey’s slogan is "Since 1898 we have been melding boys into splendid, clear-thinking young men”, but when Holden entered this school he had already been wiped of his innocence- he was no longer a boy. This is why Holden no longer has any hopes or dreams, he feels like everything that happened in his life is all that will happen.
The references that Holden made about age and growing up accurately captures how teenagers act. As teens, we are still in this transition period into adulthood and therefore we still have our moments of acting childish and handling certain situations maturely. We have not fully transitioned into what we are going to be in life. It is quite ironic how parents would deem us as adults and therefore should be fully responsible on certain situations such as our academics and careers in the future, but would later on tell us we are too young for other things such as relationships. As teenagers, we are both expected to act maturely AND a bit childish sometimes.
ReplyDeleteThere are certain stereotypes stuck to those who attend prep schools and prep schools in general. Prep schools are supposed to be a training ground to the children of social elites and it is supposed to be where they interact with other social elites and possibly talk business as well. It is all about keeping the wealth and power in the same circle, the same class of people. Holden sure fits into the category of a social elite due to his status, but he does not quite conform to the stereotypes. In fact, he is the opposite of how students at prep schools should be.
Marie Manipud
I agree with my peers that the many references to age represents how many teenagers can act either maturely or immaturely depending on the situation. It also represents a pressure to grow up during that time in life. In modern times, teenagers are thrown right into the real world right after high school, which is a factor in the pressure to become adults. Holden even considers things that he would want to do after high school, which includes silly ideas such as running away with a girl or working as a man who prevents children from falling off cliffs. Holden acknowledges that he needs to grow up and make a living, yet actually fails to do so for the entire book. This is an example of something that teenagers are not supposed to do.
ReplyDeleteBased on the schools that Holden has gone to, it seems like the prep schools in this book mainly train the type of individuals who had the most power during this time: White, wealthy males. I assume that these prep schools are preparing these boys for very good jobs and lives full of luxury. These boys would grow up to be on the top of society's social ladder, which Holden dislikes because of his dislike of "phony" people. Although Holden does not seem to completely fit with his peers, he does fail to be frugal with his money due to being used to having a lot of it, which I imagine the rich boys at his school would also share. His disregard for the value of money causes him to recklessly spend it throughout the book. This is one of his only similarities with preppy boys in the book.
Emily Chan
To me Holdem is contradicting himself very much when making statements about him feeling like if he was still 12 years of age or him being more mature than this age. In some sort of way, it reminds me of the Geico commercial where they feature Peter Pan at his high school reunion. He tries to be acting mature, knowing the people he is around with and that they have all grown up, but he tries to crack at a couple of jokes because he still feels like a child. This ties in with Holdem's persona, due to situations he had to experience at such a young age, he can be considered to be mature and ready to take on life. yet, he continue to get laughs for himself out of people and making at times rude comments.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to prep schools, those were the schools where you wanted to go if you wanted to succeed in life. It does play a big role in the story, due to the fact that Holdem has been kicked out of some. These schools main purpose was to make you successful in what you were going to be in, giving you a better opportunity in attending a greater university. Over all, Holdem ignores the fact the future is approaching and rather than trying to take it down he runs away from it.
-Jorge Tejeda
I feel as though I can relate to Holden in a sense because like him I am not fully matured and sometimes have related thoughts to his. Being a teenager can be difficult because you are trying to balance out from adulthood and childhood. Holden is battling his mind, remembering the loss of his little brother to cancer. I believe that the reason that Holden has stopped applying himself in school is because of the loss of his best friend and also his younger brother. He claimed he "acts a lot older" but he is also humble enough to admit that his dialogue use and "fooling around" is very immature and child like. Holdens dialogue use toward Stradlater are those of a teenager, which contradicts him acting "older" for his age.
ReplyDeleteSalinger stresses Holden’s references towards age to manifest Holden’s confusion during his transition from child to adult. The quotes Mr. Rodriguez utilized as evidence to Holden’s chronic need to mention his age to encapsulate his confusion. This dichotomy between the age he is physically versus the age that represents his inner self is seen in the way in which Holden describes his body juxtaposed with the age he truly feels he is,he describes himself extremely vividly in page 9 “I am quite young for my age… sometimes I act like I’m about thirteen… I’m six foot two and a half and have gray hair …. I sometimes act like I’m twelve …” (Salinger). More importantly it serves to highlight the feeling of immaturity that is often the cause for much of the hilarity in the story. This perceptive difference of age is also at the core of Holden’s rejection of values as preached by his many prep schools. And its these values that serves as the tenets of what Holden calls the “phonies”. Furthermore, he mocks the school’s motto “since 1898 we have been melding boys into splendid, clear- thinking young men.” to emphasize his dislike for uniformity. Moreover, his actions, such as failing his classes with the exception of his English class, and associating himself with rebellious activities like smoking, drinking, and using foul language - considered highly offensive and controversial in the 1950’s - further exemplifies his rejection of “preppy” culture.
ReplyDeleteIn APELC, one of the novels that we read, A Separate Peace also took place at a preparatory school. The setting had everything to do with the events that took place in the novel. The idea is that the boys who leave the school, leave educated, well-mannered, and ready to become cooperative members of society. The fact that Holden has been kicked out of 4 preparatory schools directly reflects him and his character traits. He is different than the time and he is rebellious and defies the norm.
ReplyDeleteHe continuously mentions people acting their age, and childishness and immaturity. Which I find pretty ironic considering that he managed to get kicked out of 4 schools, seemingly has no direction, and most of the things that he does, like calling people in the middle of the night and bothering people who wanted nothing to do with him. The whole tone of the novel for me is ironic, everything that occurs, everything that Holden does reflects the fact that he is immature and childish and he isn't ready for the real world, even though he acts like he is above everything and everyone.
in response to the question "what exactly are we suppost to make of Holden Caufield's references to age?" is that in these quotes there is an age listed with a set or type of behavior with the actions. This happened multiple times in that there is a recurring theme in these quotes that convey one similar message. That people at certain ages are suppost to act a certain way, they are expected to and if not are seen as a lowlife outcast. This is the consequences for not conforming which is partially the reason to Holden's troubles at prep schools for it is all about conformity. However Holden is not bound by these set of moral rules set by society for he claims that he does not act his age most of the time, however he expresses no true concern to being outcasted for not conforming for remember he is setting the precedent for a rebellious teenager and by definition he will not conform neither does he feel a need to for he is his own independent individual.
ReplyDeleteHolden finds adults repulsive, which is why he mentions people by their age. He isn't afraid of adulthood, more so afraid of not being able to escape the system, and also becoming a "phony" like the rest of the adults. I think his character at this point is very contradicting because he is making fun of others immaturity level at their age, but Holden had been kicked out of 4 prep schools; more prestigious than regular public schools because of how he is immature and childish.
ReplyDeleteI agree with many of my peers who had commented saying Holden constantly talks about his age because he is going through a stage struggling between being a teenager and becoming an adult. However, throughout the novel, Holden displays adult like situations, but still shows childish actions. I can personally relate to Holden because many of us are going through this stage right now. I had made some questionable decisions that I had realized to be considered childish, but I always reminded myself that it is okay because I am young and we all make mistakes. I can agree when some say that we sometimes consider it as an excuse to help hide our actions.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the fact that Holden has been constantly kicked out of prep schools is a result of his rebellious behavior. Cleary Holden shows his characteristics by choosing not to do his best in academics. As many young teenagers today, if we were offered an amazing school, we will try our best to be kept in that school, however Holden is quite different. He throws away the opportunity by showing careless actions. Reminding ourselves that he has been kicked out of four schools already, it shows the readers how immature and inconsiderate Holden displays himself in the novel.
I think that Holden acknowledges that he is very childish due to others telling him that he is. He only uses his older appearance as a tool to get what he wants, like alcohol, instead of acting as mature as he looks. The reason that he might be in a medical ward is that he had to mature rapidly over the course of his adventure and his maturation might have happened to fast and would have been very jarring for Holden.
ReplyDeleteThe preppy comment is significant in the story because Holden cannot stand their types. Holden constantly refers to them as phonies and will constantly belittle them. This could be a part of his nonconformist and independent nature.
no
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